[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

My friends bodied me and took me to Applebee's at Atlantic Terminal. I got home late as it is.

[UmaiCakes]

Ah well. I had tons of fun at casuals (lots more people came this time), definitely going again next month

One thing I noticed, the A/B. Bufu reset whiffs if they tech towards and Liz get punished for free

Oh and playing LotkaVolterra's Kanji, I realized I don't know how to play the matchup at all lol, do you try to stay level with him in the air at j.B range? If feel like if you're under him, Liz can't do much against j.B and j.C...also he can dive over 5B so getting 5D or 2C jumped out = dangerous to try to continue pressure

[Elochai]

I've honestly considered completely dropping the a.bufu reset. It's so bad for the reason you mentioned, and that costs me a lot of games. If the player is inexperienced with Liz, then it's fine, and you get a free 4k combo, but otherwise, I wouldn't advise. Maybe I'll start going for j.B > j.D reset.

For the Kanji matchup, it's kinda odd. If you want to stay in his face, you should be ready to 2B (since it puts you airborne) if you think he'll command grab you, and you can go for a counterhit 2B > j.B combo. J.B is the only issue imo, j.C is really slow and easy to see coming. I've never seen a Kanji use the dive to go over 5B. I suppose it'd be hard to TK it and time it properly anyway.

[Elochai]

Unless I'm mistaken (and maybe I am, who knows?) 5AB doesn't follow the FC loop rules, even though it has a P1 of 0. I can only get 3 2B > j.B > j.236Ds off of 5AB FC > OMB. Maybe system starters are handled differently.

[Runyst]

I just found out the hard way that momento mori can be dp'd by akihiko ._.

[Elochai]

Raw Memento Mori? Did you do the D version?

[spineshark]

Unless I'm mistaken (and maybe I am, who knows?) 5AB doesn't follow the FC loop rules, even though it has a P1 of 0. I can only get 3 2B > j.B > j.236Ds off of 5AB FC > OMB. Maybe system starters are handled differently.

When you say 5AB FC are you doing AOA on a feared opponent and OMB'ing right away, or is this the FC from mashing?

[Elochai]

5AB on fear, without the mashing. Maybe AOA~D FC would work?

[spineshark]

I doubt it but AOAs are kind of a mystery to me. It would probably do more damage in the end unless the mashing kills another rep, since full mash is one of the most damaging "moves" in the game.

[Elochai]

Can't get that to work, lol. Sorry.

However, if we're looking for more cross-up shenanigans, we can do 214CD (blocked) > mind charge or OMC > 214C > evasive action. It's kind ambiguous which way to block. You can get 4k if you confirm from midscreen. Also, with the 5AA > air turn j.C cross-up, if it's blocked, you can OMC j.A for an instant overhead.

Edit: I used the maragidyne cross-up in today's FT10. When Giovanni uploads the video, I'll add the link here.

Edit 2: The cross-up. When my capture card starts working again, I'll make a new video about stuff like this.

[DudeUnderscore]

Can't get that to work, lol. Sorry.

However, if we're looking for more cross-up shenanigans, we can do 214CD (blocked) > mind charge or OMC > 214C > evasive action. It's kind ambiguous which way to block. You can get 4k if you confirm from midscreen. Also, with the 5AA > air turn j.C cross-up, if it's blocked, you can OMC j.A for an instant overhead.

Edit: I used the maragidyne cross-up in today's FT10. When Giovanni uploads the video, I'll add the link here.

Edit 2: The cross-up. When my capture card starts working again, I'll make a new video about stuff like this.

well the thing about this is if the person knows the mixup, they can just reversal action or dash out of it while you're casting C.Maragidyne.

[Elochai]

Yeah, that's undeniably true. Similar arguments can be made about any gimmick/trick that we have though. If you know how to watch Liz, you can just jump 5D, or block 2C, etc.

[SansProtocol]

Didn't know if this was noticed since I have been away from the game for quite sometime but 2C > SB Zio > OMC will carry the opponent midscreen to the corner and wallsplat them if you dash immediately after the OMC. I don't know exactly what you can do after that but the proration is great and it gives us something to do with 75+ meter off raw midscreen 2C. Trying to get loops down again so I can't test the full potential of it but wanted to throw out the info to see if anyone could use it.

[godofwar7]

I use SB Zio > OMC all the time. its a great approach tool when blocked. its not as good as narukami's version though since liz doesn't have a good overhead attack. i don't think ive ever seen any U.S. liz players use liz's j.A to break crouching guard.

And yeah its got very good carry to wall stick. You can't do too much after it though, only like 2k damage, but you've got them in the corner and they're paralyzed so thats already a huge plus. I never use it after 2C though

[Elochai]

Didn't know if this was noticed since I have been away from the game for quite sometime but 2C > SB Zio > OMC will carry the opponent midscreen to the corner and wallsplat them if you dash immediately after the OMC. I don't know exactly what you can do after that but the proration is great and it gives us something to do with 75+ meter off raw midscreen 2C. Trying to get loops down again so I can't test the full potential of it but wanted to throw out the info to see if anyone could use it.

On FC, you can do 2B > j.B > j.236D x3. Non fc, I'm sure you can do 5B > 2AB > garu > mori ender. This progressive wall stick thing is cool though.

[SansProtocol]

On FC, you can do 2B > j.B > j.236D x3. Non fc, I'm sure you can do 5B > 2AB > garu > mori ender. This progressive wall stick thing is cool though.

Cool! Thanks for the info. Yeah, baby combos with Mori ender were doing 7k so I will be cranking out damage over here. Nice to be back.

[susano]

So um...day one Liz here. -waves-

[Runyst]

Life be busy but like I tried to do a raw C Momento Mori but it got Dp'd by the Akihiko I was playing. Could be wrong and it was the D version. Was my first time using stick so the buttons were weirding me out

also realized how scary Fatal counters are and why you don't want to mash against people who know wtf they're doing ._.

Welcome to Liz. You'll either have an amazing time or a miserable time playing against people :D

[Elochai]

D version has like 20 frames of invul, whereas C is at 12 frames. D is the one you want to use as a reversal super. I think Aki's DP may have more invul though, but I'm not sure.

Welcome, Susano. Runyst is right, lol. Some days I'm just enamored with Liz, and other days, I wish she was better. She'll always be mai waifu though.

[susano]

Thanks guys. Still trying to work on basics so hopefully I'll start posting videos for advice.

[UmaiCakes]

I use SB Zio > OMC all the time. its a great approach tool when blocked. its not as good as narukami's version though since liz doesn't have a good overhead attack. i don't think ive ever seen any U.S. liz players use liz's j.A to break crouching guard.

Because j.A is really hard to use as an "overhead"...only viable situations is like 2B OMC j.A or D.Agi j.A or empty jump 2A mixup. D.Agi is is near impossible to setup, and 2B OMC I've been trying to use but find that the timing is somewhat tight, also it puts Liz in a dangerous position since you'd want to dash up and do it point blank, while Liz really prefers to keep her pressure at 5B/5C length so you can't get DP'd so easily (except by S.Labrys and Mitsuru anyways)

Also you can pretty easily get poked out of any Zio OMC dashup, I don't think its +frames unless you do it really close

On the subject of overheads, what's an optimal combo off midscreen AOA~C, can you get any j.B Garu stuff off it? It does really suck as the slowest AOA, but I think its worth throwing out every once in a while since Liz has no other real overhead options...it also superarmors through DPs and other things, so pretty useful as a hard read (though you get a groundbounce combo in that case)

[Elochai]

I believe this is gives us an idea of the optimal AOA~C combo, although I think you can omit the second garu and do the usual b.bufu > whatever. To get j.B stuff off of AOA, you can either do AOA FC > OMB, or AOA~D FC > OMB. You get like 3 reps IIRC.

Maybe AOA~C > j.B loop is possible, but no one has tried it yet, I guess. Get in the lab.

Also, as an alternative to 2B OMC > j.A, you can just opt for a grab. It's pretty fast.

[UmaiCakes]

Also, as an alternative to 2B OMC > j.A, you can just opt for a grab. It's pretty fast.

Yeah or 2A. Its a decent mixup, but it requires you do 2B OMC j.A first to make it threatening since you can just dashup throw/2A anyways

And lol I still don't see where the optimal AOA~C combo is. I do remember seeing somewhere that you could SB.Garu elevator back to the ground, have a link?

[Elochai]

In my previous post, I meant to hyperlink that AOA~C garu elevator combo. I can be pretty oblivious sometimes, sorry. Anyways, here's what I was talking about. I'd imagine the OMB is only there because of the second garu.

Edit: I can't do that combo at all. I get a few hits of garudyne, but as soon as I input [2], they fall out. Let me know when you get it, Umai (or whoever else!)

[UmaiCakes]

I got it to work on Yosuke, and I assume it only works on characters that have long falling hitboxes (perhaps the ones that can be looped with D.Garu [2])

Trick is to neutral jump after AOA~C and input D.Garu as low to ground as possible, then you can hold [2]

AOA~C (FC) D.Garu[2] 2A 5B 5C 2C B.Bufu 2C SB.Zio 5C is 3.7k damage