[P4A] Yukiko vs. Elizabeth

[MikelAL93]

Discuss the matchup between Yukiko and Elizabeth here. This is one fateful battle for everyone's (even Yukiko's) souls indeed.

Matchup Summary

Yukiko's Tools

Her 5B/2B/JB Fans: Her fans are deemed useless in this matchup. However, they can also help counter against B Maziodyne and her AoA. Remember to use them wisely when fighting against Elizabeth.

Dia: Dia gives Yukiko a great advantage against all of Elizabeth's zoning and ranged attacks, such as Maziodyne and Maragidyne after its active frames. You can also use Dia to bait both, Elizabeth and her Persona. Remember to use it wisely, it can't defend you from all of her attacks such as her AAA, but if you activate Dia after Elizabeth summons her Persona, you can easily take a card away from her. Even Elizabeth's 5B and J.B attacks and B+D can't break Yukiko out of Dia.

Agi and Maragi: Remember to time and place your Agi fireballs and Maragi's properly. Maragi hits low and will help against Elizabeth's Maziodyne and 5B. Remember to summon Maragi before Elizabeth summons them, but I personally recommend using the C version of Maragi against Maziodyne because the fireball does not disappear while Yukiko is blocking (the C version can help against J.B if the pillar is summoned), giving Yukiko a better chance to counter against both attacks. Agi's fireballs can be used as a great counter against Elizabeth's Magarudyne if placed accordingly.

Elizabeth's response to them

Her 5B/2B/JB Fans: All of Elizabeth's B attacks have a great advantage against her fans after they are activated. Maziodyne and Magarudyne also shut them off automatically.

Dia: Elizabeth can counter against Dia with her AAA and standard Persona attacks while Dia is still in use. Her 2B attack and AoA can also break Yukiko out of Dia.

Agi and Maragi: Elizabeth can easily dodge Yukiko's Agi fireballs with Magarudyne to move out of where the fireball was placed. Maragi's fireballs once summoned can shut down when either Maziodyne or D Maragidyne attack Yukiko while she is not blocking after executing the move too soon. Timing is the key to attack Elizabeth with Agi and Maragi.

Elizabeth's Tools

5B and J.B: Elizabeth's B attacks can instantly shut her fans down when timed and executed properly. If the timing for her B attacks are well executed, they can even link to her Persona attacks.

Shuffle Time: Elizabeth's DP can give Yukiko status effects depending on how much SP Elizabeth has during the match. A list of Aliments and the amount of SP that is needed prior to Shuffle Time can be found below:

[table=width: 300]

0-49

50-99

100-149

150

Charm

Poison

Fear

Confusion

[/table]

Maziodyne, Magarudyne, Mabufudyne, and Maragidyne: These moves function similarly to their other counterparts, except they also come with additional effects such as shock for SB Maziodyne. It is unsafe to block against Magarudyne and Mabufudyne, and the former instantly destroys her fans during its active frames similar to the vein of Maziodyne.

Mahamaon and Mamudoon: Elizabeth's instant kill supers need no explaination here, if your Persona is broken and you are unable to use Dia, stay away from both moves as much as possible. Both moves do have lengthy startup times during activation, waiting at least 10 seconds for either one of the two attacks to take place.

Yukiko's response to them

5B and J.B: Maragi can help destroy Elizabeth's B attacks depending on the type used. If 5B, the ground fireball can go under Elizabeth's projectile attack and hit her. If J.B, the detonated pillar from Maragi will appear underneath Elizabeth and attack her, both methods give Yukiko a great chance to create mixups, combos or unblockable setups.

Shuffle Time: Yukiko can easily dodge or counter Shuffle Time with her fans or fireballs during its active frames. Remember to time them well.

Maziodyne, Magarudyne, Mabufudyne, and Maragidyne: It is recommended that you use Maragi C against Maziodyne because the fireball does not disappear while Yukiko is blocking all versions of them. Agi and Maragi also have a great advantage against Magarudyne if both placed accordingly, or in Maragi's case, follows Elizabeth's path and detonates the fireball during Magarudyne's active frames; the D version of Maragi is recommended for Magarudyne. Maragidyne is easy to counter thanks to its lengthy startup and recovery. You can protect Yukiko from them with Dia during the active startup frames of the respective moves. If you are lucky, you can activate firebreak and D Maragidyne to counter against her Maziodyne.

Mahamaon and Mamudoon: Dia can easily go through both moves without allowing Yukiko to risk herself by getting killed. Remember to time Dia wisely, though. Yukiko can even shut them off if she attacks Elizabeth head on.

The verdict of this matchup

This is one of these matchups where you want to be physical against your opponent. Elizabeth can easily outzone and outheal Yukiko with her full-screen lightning and C Persona attacks, she even has Yukiko's Maragidyne, with one new addition where both C & D Maragidyne are combined. She also has two SP attacks that will lead to an instant KO, one similar to Naoto, and the other that is specific to her.

Breaking Elizabeth's Persona is a huge factor in this matchup, as this will allow you to approach her head on without having the need to block her full-screen Maziodyne projectile. Remember to Dia against her projectiles, time your Agi's against Magarudyne, and even spam Maragi on both, her B attacks and Maziodyne; but be sure to block on Maziodyne after Maragi is in use, this will help the fireball go under the beam even if Yukiko is blocking or using Dia to protect herself from it. Destroy Elizabeth's Persona, avoid Mahamaon and Mamudoon, and the match is yours.

[DonnieRye]

I'm having huge problems with this matchup.

She outzones and outheals me, lmao.

Can't really get in on her and I end up getting feared eventually and take like 9k damage.

Something that is really bugging me is that grab her Persona can do that fears you and throws you across the stage into juggles.

Would very much like some help with this from any more experienced Yukiko players

[blakmaphia]

Ok from what I learned in my travels:

Elizabeth completely out zones us so this is a fight where you wanna be physical. If able, plant your J.d persona close to her to make her afraid.

Her 5b eats our fans.

Anytime she use her persona to get us out of range it leaves her persona open.

Her healing is not too much of a prob because the health she gets back is equal to one good bnb from us.

Dia goes through ALL OF HER RANGED ATTACKS! You can use Dia to bait her or her persona in and counter.

What I have been aiming for is baiting with Dia and breaking her persona. After her persona dies shes like a deer in headlights.

Thats all I have for now. I'll add more as I learn.

[Warhound]

I can give some insight into netplay Ziodyne spammers.

Like blakmaphia said, she can out-zone us. Ziodyne fills the screen (with a little start-up) instantaneously, our stuff takes some time. A good spot to be in mid-long range, basically just within 236B range. Agi stops this bitch in her tracks, and this its also fast enough to not only stop them, but take a chunk out of their persona.

If you are on opposite sides of the screen and you feel like your Yomi powers are sharp, Dia can take Ziodyne's brunt. But a good thing to do is, if you do predict it, double jump above it and send Sakuya over to distract her.

But it really is optimal to keep her at mid range, not too close though, because her B moves have some nasty reach.

[farplaner]

Ok... I just played a friend who used Elizabeth... The disruptor move wasn't the problem, but her Persona. My main concern is trying to kill her Persona first, but it seems like the Persona can do everything.

I can bait the Persona, but the Persona can reversal, can throw you, and its attack seems to be faster than my 5A?

And everytime I get hit with a combo, it's like I lose 50% of life... I'm seriously confused on how to get hits properly on the Persona.

[choysauce]

everytime an elizabeth uses (i think) her 5CC. throw out Dia to beat the roar/command grab mixup and take a card.

if you can read when they throw out the persona, roll and get to liz quick and punish, she can't move. Free CH.

Dia against zoning.

she does outzone you, so you have to rush her down XP

liz has a hard time hitting the top quadrant unless she reads your super jump. just toss a fan from up there.

[Ciddypoo]

Yeah, Dia is pretty sick vs. Liz's 5C options and takes a card. Alternatively you can upback and see how they react (mostly on whether or not they'll ever do Liz's air unblockable 214A, which no one seems to do). That also puts you in position to SJ/fan as mentioned above.

Once she's knocked down it's pretty easy to pressure her. Just watch for her B+D and be ready to tech it.

Also on a more general gameplay note, since Liz is one of the few of the cast that actually has Fear, just be aware that you can't tech her throws when Fear'd and everything, so you gotta respect it, especially since she gets some hefty damage and corner carry off of them.

Uh, and be aware of her IK when she has meter, since Konohana Sakuya hits like a billion times for each swing. 5C > 2C blockstrings are out of the question even if you're not in range to get physically hit if they IB for a punish (Liz can usually get a sweep into Garu combo at that distance)

[Ciddypoo]

I'm still having hardcore trouble with this matchup and how to approach it.

j.D seems to work pretty nice, but I found that taking to the air is a good way to eat lightnings from fullscreen. I asked stunedge on how to approach and he said:

no jump, keep throwing 5B and 6D, Dia against projectile, easy

So I'm gonna try 6D a bit more.

[MikelAL93]

I'm still having hardcore trouble with this matchup and how to approach it.

j.D seems to work pretty nice, but I found that taking to the air is a good way to eat lightnings from fullscreen. I asked stunedge on how to approach and he said:

So I'm gonna try 6D a bit more.

Yeah, if its B Maziodyne, you may have to take a risk on using 9D if Yukiko is falling down the air after the lightning appears from below her. 6D is also helpful against Maziodyne, but you should do it before Elizabeth activates it, if done properly, you can take a card away from her.

Anyway, I have updated the first post to include the verdict of this matchup and my notes on it with their tools and how they will respond to it.

[Warhound]

I ran into one last night. It was weird. He would curb stomp me some rounds, I get a perfect one another round, and lost hardcore on another round.

I also learned that her Maragidyne can stuff Yukiko's j.D variants at the right times, because it hits you and Sakuya at the same time. This is not a fun fight in general. Giving her too much space allows her to Maziodyne and giving her medium range allows her B/j.B to get within range, which is all she needs, quite frankly. If they are Maziodyne happy, staying within range of Agi B is good, but other than that, I'm not sure what to do against her.

Another thing is what should I do after her C? I would try to instant block both attacks, but the concept of IBing is lol-worthy on netplay. I see several different outcomes after 5C.

1. Another 5C = Keep blocking I guess?

2. 2C or whatever that roar of Thanatos' is = jump block in case it's...

3. D = j.A do something, get the fuck outta there.

Her j.B is seriously scary though, I don't have a huge answer to it besides reading her and throwing a fan. Otherwise, she vacuums you in, and then good luck getting out. All I can say that we have over her is, like you guys said, 6B. Her zoning stuff takes a little while to start up, but you have to be within appropriate range for you not to eat lighting or fire.

[Ryd']

Didn't see this in the thread, so I figure I'll toss this out there. Any time Liz goes for her IK off your normals, you can cancel into Dia (just tap, no need to hold) before the IK activates and negate it.

[choysauce]

sick, her IK is projectile? this is so in yukiko's favor then.

IK all her shit cuz the recovery on all her moves are so bad.

also i didn't see it mentioned, but i feel like yukiko outzones liz in the long run.

sure liz can catch you with a zio, but if you make her block a single fan, she can't use any more of her specials unless she tries to jump over them and make you stop somehow

you can frame trap single 5/6B against spammers cuz the startup is too long on her moves, you'll break the persona and leave her standing there to be CH. (6D FC > Dead)

you just don't want to be close to her cuz her card normals fuck you up.

[Pyry Von Quies]

This match has some hard moments, but it's safe to say it's one of Yukiko's easier matches. Though Liz outheals you, people forget that you have to beat her into Awakening (or wait until she just Mind Charges) in order to use it. On top of that, Liz has the lowest health in the game, so literally 2 or 3 lengthy combos will kill Liz in no time.

 

First thing I will say is that one key for Yukiko to win this match is simply stock up on Fire Boosts. All you need is literally 2 and you will become a threat to Liz. The more you build up on Fire Boosts the painful your attacks become and the faster to victory you'll get.

 

The main things to watch out for in this matchup is Liz's j.5B/5B (her normal in which she flings some cards at you like that of a boomerang. it has a deceptive long range and hitbox. Oddly enough, since it's projectile-based, you can Dia through it), her Persona attack game (5C>5D or 2C. Block the 2C and attack the 5D before her Persona can grab you to steal a card), her Ziodyne blast (it's quite fast and beats the hell out of your zoning properties)

 

You also don't want Liz to corner you, because it's hell attempting to escaping her Persona.

 

Once you have IK power, you are able to respect Liz's game a lot less, since most Liz's moves have long recovery.

If she has IK power, unless you have OMC on standby, do not Agidyne, do not Maragidyne, do not zone excessively, do not even breathe, for she can absorb up to 3 hits and take you into kingdom come. Dia or simply holding back to block will avoid Liz's IK should it activated and you have OMC.

5D can be your Fatal Countering friend in this match, but you have to have proper spacing to avoid some of Liz's attack all the while.

[Zephyrion22]

As I am both a Yukiko and Liz player, I mostly agree to what was said above, Yukiko doesn't have such a hard time against Liz once you know the tricks, some reminders though

Liz's persona pressure is actually completely reactable if you look at Liz, and not the persona, once you get used to it, she won't get anything out if you're not in the corner,crippled by fear/paralysis.

 

If you are midscreen and look at her properly you can react to everything with instant air backdash j6B to take out persona cards (if you're midscreen and doing it well it will beat everything, except a A Bufu after a deep 5C).

-After a blocked 2C, except if the Liz like to OMC pressure,5A>jump cancel> stuff, 5A>6D, or 5A> D or EX  maragi (236/236CD)  will come in handy, just to prevent her from throwing 5Cs like candy.

-If you see the throw coming I also highly recommend IAD jA (People tend to forget that yukiko's air forward dash is one of the best if used properly because of its travel distance). If done well you will get either a punish and force Liz to block (Liz's 2B head invulnerability shouldn't have kicked in yet)

-In the corner, if you're not paralyzed patience is the key. you can high forward jump> 4D/5D /airdash> airturn>4B against her 5D.  even if eat something or are forced to block on landing, you're out of there so it's a good thing. if you're awakened, I would also recommend using 214214C every once in a while. It will trade most of the time but if you caught Liz doing something, she will be at least forced to block until she is back at fullscreen distance

 

jB and 5B are really overrated in this matchup. while they see some good uses they both have their flaws you need to exploit :

-5B has a very poor vertical reach and terrible recovery : If a Liz throws it out without care you can just get your jC counter > jC OMB combos for some nasty damage.

-jB is a lot more annoying but remember that it has a dead angle under Liz, so if you run up 5A at the right moment, you should get a 5A air counter into the confirm of your choice. if you don't think you have time to do so, just back off and stay out of range

 

 

Liz's IK is a huge scam. People tend to thing it's the most awful thing against Yukiko because of her multi-hitting attacks but it's not. First of all this IK is completely blockable. if you throw a xD or jxD attack, you will recover in time to block it. you even have the time to throw a fan and then block (only one though 5BB or any other zoning attacks will get owned). The other primary weakness of this IK is that it activates really slowly. Once you're used to it you can pretty much OMC >block any 5C/2C/Agidyne/Maragidyne  that was caught in it  on reaction. Just don't forget to keep your 50 meter cushion at all times. The best part is that, should the IK miss, Liz is stuck for an insane amount of time. Do yourself a favor and learn 6D Fatal counter routes and she should die for every attempt at this and stop using it altogether. if you don't feel gutsy enough or don't have the resources for fancy punishes, just Dia through it as it was mentioned above : you won't get anything big  out of it, except for some health, but you won't get killed.

 

 

 

Many people mistakes Liz fullscreen for zoning, but I would call it counter zoning. Maragidyne is reactable, escapable and punishable, A maziodyne has terrible recovery that lets you run up to her, and B Maziodyne is slow as hell. Not to mention that all of these option only cover the ground (Liz can air maziodyne, but you will never see it except if you spend your time leaping like a frog).But it doesn't matter since all of those eat attempts at establishing more agressive zoning, like Yukiko does.

If you can't or just don't want to run up to her, just play this little game with her. Don't throw anything that will get you punished. high jumps fans and D persona attacks are your friends. You can combine them in many ways and adds air dashes. If you do it well, she should have a really hard time punishing you, and get hit more times than you get hit. And one single hit is/ all you need to close the distance/ set your zoning game. On the ground. you can throw fireboosts and EX maragi safely. the first one will get an incentive for Liz to try and approach you, which you can stuff because of her poor mobility. As for  EX Maragi, its  insane startup and recovery will just force her to move : If she blocks, just run behind the C Maragi has she is trapped in the D maragi blockstun. if she jumps, use the maragi manual detonation combined with fans and jD to get her on the ground and start your pressure.I recommend using this one after a blocked Ziodyne, whatever the version is. Once you master it you should get a free approach on pretty much anything she could attempt

 

 

For Magarudyne, just block it or run away. It is scary because of the 8k combos it leads to but it is slow and has poor range anyway. It's also  - on block, especially if you IB it, so if the Liz doesn't OMC it, enjoy your free punish

 

This MU is definitely in Yukiko's favor, even if it's not a big advantage. As Yukiko, you just need to avoid getting reckless in this MU, as pressing buttons aimlessly will get you killed 100% of the time. It's one of this MUs in which you can't really show your dance at all times, so just sit back and let Liz dance for you , as you have all the tools to make her trip.