[P4A] Kanji vs. Elizabeth: Who made your dress?

[Circuitous]

~Axis edit~

Full screen: J.D beams and move get midscreen fast unless you want to challenge beams or block a EX Maragidyne.

Mid screen: Good you are in the perfect range to beat 5B and 5C, both can be rolled and grab punished.

J.B is something you HAVE to respect if you have no meter, otherwise 236CD her if she decides to jump.

Close range:Cool your on the offense! run your normal grappler game, I suggest using jabs more in this case since Liz can 2B you for grab attempts. (She is airborne when using 2B godly hitbox too.)

You can also 5A/2A whiff jump her R-action too. I suggest j.Cing it.

some things to know:

Liz 5C is really fast and swings twice, she has a few things that she uses to mix you up:

5C(1) > 5D (persona grab)

5C > 2C (that rawr move)

Those are the normal midscreen block strings players will like to use.

You can block 2C and walk 5A or 5B it which gives you a free card, do it for 4 times and poof no more persona.

You can also jump forward j.B over hear if she uses a grab, if you feel confident you can j.214B her for this too.

Her 2B is a really strong anti-air if you are gonna challenge that move then use j.C at an angle or j.B.

In other words do not be directly above her! It's a death wish.

Her corner game is scary but really beatable.

In the corner she has this really cool setup where she knocks you down and uses 5D, if you wake up you hop the grab but you are in range to get punished by 5B/2B.

You can solve this easily though, just delay tech the 5D and if you see 5B start up then roll it late and grab her.

Trust me roll late or you eat the 5B.

Bittles: When her back is to you while in the air her j.D moves further, it's already really fast.

Garudyne's direction can be influenced, not safe on block though.

Her J.C is not an overhead.

Ghastly wail is not a good reversal.

Liz can Spell charge > Diarahan to put herself in awakening and gain a lot of health so a character with 7500 health max can take more than 2 good combos to beat.

God edit enjoy.

[Manbig]

Anyone have any advice for this match-up? I finally ran into a non crappy Ellizabeth player and the dude was an absolute killer. Pretty much just spaced out a bit and used those mix ups she has built into her persona moves and that stupid yoyo and it beat out every option I had for free. At the range that he stayed at (about 2 - 3 steps back) I couldn't really get anything going. I would either get beat out if I tried to attack with anything, or try A+C and get caught up in a block string that's still out of range of B+D.

My apologies for the awful move descriptions, or if this post is in the wrong place, but any advice on how to approach this match-up would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

[DryPrime]

The yoyo is her s. B, I know that much. I'd also like some advice for this matchup, though, if anyone's got some; it doesn't seem as awful as Tager vs Lambda/Nu was back in BB, but it's still giving me some problems.

[Edge Reaper]

This match-up is ass. I've only played a sparse few good Elizabeth's (offline mind you) and so there's only so much I can offer.

What you're really fishing for, is to get rid of Thanatos, because that rat-bastard is what's gonna kill you most likely. From my experience (so take it with gratutious amounts of salt) most Elizabeth players will either get more aggressive (therefore make more mistakes) or extremely defensive as her Persona cards run dry.Beat up her Persona when the opportunity is presented, most likely after the second hit of 5C (second sword slash) or a baited 2C (his roar), preferably with a J.B. Trying to break it while grounded is asking for a Fear-Inducing Command Grab in your future. Killing the persona is always a good idea in match-ups, but it's damn near mandatory when fighting Elizabeth as it'll be the only time you can get any real head-way in this fight.

At range, blast her with j/5 D, but only strike once with the lightning. If the first hit doesn't connect, keeping it going is asking to lose a card. Shock won't do much in this match-up but limiting her options, especially her movement, is always a good move. Up close, block like crazy, build meter, and use SB 214CD to put the fear of God into her. 214C works as well, but most other options come with a high risk, and the reward isn't always worth it, especially when the big fatal counter moves on the ground are just not going to happen in this scenario when her moves are constantly multi-hitting along with having better range/start-up, except for her R Action, which is begging for a J.C FC combo. The R action, in most cases, can be Elizabeth's big mistake in this match-up, so watch for it at close range.

SB j.214AB deserves special notice, as it's the one tool at long range that can be considered a real answer in this match-up. It's very good damage, has some invincibility, and covers the full screen. At that range, most of Elizabeth's options have long start-up/recovery, so love on this move like it's your child, because, unless you're being very stupid with it, it's your path to big damage and flipping the fight around. Remember, she only has 7500 health, and even with Diaharan, Kanji can do enough hurt to wreck her shit with all the right opportunities. 3-4 mistakes is all it would take. Use that as incentive to deal with this mess.

[Krackatoa]

So if you can confirm into Tatsumi-Style in the corner, you can do 236B xx 214B on her wakeup to catch a jump. The chair will catch her DP for counter-hit and if you input 236A+B upon landing, you can chase her and combo from the chair for mad damage. She has to roll out of this or block all incoming mixups. If she ducks the initial Dive Grab, the chair covers your recovery.

I don't think it's completely idiot proof, but it catches two of her wakeup options and gives you a shot at another mixup. If they're familiar with this setup, I'm sure there's some serious holes, but it should be great to catch them by surprise.

[Kaizer Blade101]

If she knocks you down in the corner, i've found that doing an evasive action will get you past Thanatos double slash and put you right next to her for a quick counter hit. If you block his roar you usually have enough time to super jump air dash on top of her. Also you can punish disruptor with brofist midscreen.

Does anyone know a reliable way to get out of the Thanatos grab after her j.C knockdown? Delaying tech or dp'ing never works. Do I need to tech as soon as possible and short hop or what?

[XVII]

Is there anything I can do if the Liz has me the corner when I'm shocked? I can roll past her if she uses 5C, but if she uses 2C, raw or after 5C, I get blown away. Any help on this matter?

[Henaki]

IK goes through EX beam and EX fire pillar wave thingy.

on reaction.

need to be at neutral frame advantage for it to be fast enough to react though.

maybe the test i did sucked tho.

i mean like, you can already IK liz with 100% meter anyway, usually. but this is funnier and cant be bursted!

[PANDEMlC]

Learn what she looks like when she throws out her Persona and you'll be able to avoid getting grabbed most the time. Stay patient and keep calm even when dumb shit happens or you block for 20 seconds straight. You basically just don't want to get feared, then she becomes scary. counter off any hit, untechable throws, etc. Even when you break her Persona it's still rough, her B is too good against Kanji. Better hope you can lock her down with some lightning to approach or cover the skies with 236 D while yo attempt to close space. Either way it's rough. 5b, 2b and j.B are all she needs to keep you away. Don't DP much either if at all, easy as hell to bait and avoid with Liz.

[A.X.I.S.]

You can 5B the command grab. (only time when thanatos slouches his arms.)

Break that persona and play it from there. you can lock her down with D's if she tries to run and if she uses 5B you can roll to get in on her.

j.B is a serious issue since you can't DP it, best way around it is to just not be close to her when she is in the air or use 236C+D for the punish.

[Colondivider]

There is a option select against her r-action on her wakeup. Do 5aa while holding upback and do j.c to punish. Otherwise finish 5aa with whatever you want.

[A.X.I.S.]

edited first post enjoy.

[Omex]

Is there anything I can do if the Liz has me the corner when I'm shocked? I can roll past her if she uses 5C, but if she uses 2C, raw or after 5C, I get blown away. Any help on this matter?

paralyzed in the corner is rigged in liz's favor, straight up. talking with a friend if they time a 5D well enough all you can do generally is hop it and she can punish the hop for a 2b for a punish so yea lol. I haven't explored it much yet, but I'm pretty sure the only options we have to explore are really gimmicky methods of beating it, either hoping 236a/sweep is fast enough to get airborne before thanatos can grab you and OMC it on hit, use 214C/CD throw invinc to try and dodge the 5D, something. like, I'm pretty sure there isn't a legit way out of this lol, it's basically just take a persona card and then suffer the followup it seems.

edit: to be more specific there are liz setups where she times a meaty 5D so your only option is to hop or DP/super and she will 2b you as you do it, so there's really no option you have to beat it. it's a very tight setup to be really unescapable however, so she has to guess between you doing DP or hop. even with that clarification it's a pretty shitty situation, but... what I'm sayin is, vs liz, it is totally worth chair super --> OMC while paralyzed vs 5D, lol. ST Bison v thawk yo

midscreen is in fact where you want to be. 5b/5c are rollable like axis said because their WHIFF is horrible, but outside of whiff they're safe as shit. j.b is hard to contest but depending on the range, you can 236CD it, 2b it or sweep it (to go under the card) but it's all situational based on the jump pattern she's using.

axis is wrong on her corner game being 'beatable', trying to roll the 5b is an awful idea because you have to roll it once she's already started throwing it and she could just do anything else to catch you. best advice i've had/seen is if you block a 2c just superjump out of the corner and use any tool you have to dodge out, airdash forward, air turn air backdash, j.c, j.214a/b, etc. she can beat that but her options doing anything else are far too rigged, apparently.

to deal with 5C, 2C and 5D mixups blockstring wise, don't watch for what card she holds out, don't watch for the arms on the persona... a lot of the time the best strategy is to watch whether she's crouching or not. she has to crouch for 2d, and she stands + holds out a card for 5D so that can be the best way to react. she also lifts herself off the ground slightly for her anti air sword slash, but if you hav ea liz doing that against you in blockstrings you're in good business generally, lol.

ghastly wail is actually a pretty good reversal vs kanji if you aren't ready, almost all of your options for pressuring on wakeup lose to it if she mashes it immediately (5a recovery, 5b, 2b, tc, pmuch anything but an immediate 214C/D really!) if you are at neutral you can jump on reaction and it's a bad reversal, but (barring supergrabs) what reversals are good in that situation? lol

Diarahan is NOT safe vs Kanji unless Kanji is being juggled by EX fire, otherwise he can react with j.d or j.214AB, really.

Liz can actually go for tick throws on people once they're feared as people can't tech and it gives her a pretty good combo. If she has to run at you to do it, use 5A to counterhit or blockstring her, especially since it beats her jumping to fake the throw, and if she's point blank, 214C will beat her thanks to throw invinc. :V

if you're pressuring her and KNOW a 2b is coming for whatever reason, you can roll it for probably the best punish? otherwise always go for some sort of 2b CH or 5b 2b frametrap, as a CH 2b gets you a delicious 4k against a 7.5k health character. aside from that, if it's a bad liz who mashes 2b to escape grabs, on block she's forced to cancel into j.b, right? While that usually makes kanji a sad panda, if you crouchblock it, it actually whiffs on him and gives you an opportunity to punish.

also don't burst, save that shit for killing her or dodging her freeze -> AoA -> Ghastly wail combo. trust me, it's just not worth it otherwise. seriously.

IBing her 2c lets you 5a punish it since it loses almost all of it's knockback.

guard cancel during her ex fire is a good option if they aren't omcing it to make it safe.

uh that's what I have off the top of my head now but this is definitely an ongoing thing lol, been fighting a lot of lizes lately.

edit: oh and watch very carefully how you tech. a lot of liz's gimmick mixups are based on how you tech, teching up/back can get you hit by ice sword, teching too early or late gets you grabbed or airgrabbed by 5d/j.d, way too much for me to know all of.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

also don't burst, save that shit for killing her or dodging her freeze -> AoA -> Ghastly wail combo. trust me, it's just not worth it otherwise. seriously.

Seconding this. Defensive bursting simply won't work at all most of the time. She's going to burst you the moment you land a real combo and you really need that OMB to kill her if you manage to catch her a second time. She usually can't kill you without letting you awaken first except in the situation Omex mentioned, so you really need that Burst in that situation too.

[Omex]

Seconding this. Defensive bursting simply won't work at all most of the time. She's going to burst you the moment you land a real combo and you really need that OMB to kill her if you manage to catch her a second time. She usually can't kill you without letting you awaken first except in the situation Omex mentioned, so you really need that Burst in that situation too.

i should probably acutally update my information here now that bace is my training partner, lol. You can burst a lot of Liz's shit, just not randomly:

After j.c, to continue the combo she needs to do 2A 5B-You can burst the 2A or the 5B on the way back. She can do an alternate route that's more burst safe, but there you go. You can burst the bufu part of 2C -> Bufu B in the corner (burst on reaction to the 2C and hope she's doing bufu, it's LEGIT, buts he can bait it) and you can similarly burst her EX lightning in combos, which will leave her in recovery for quite a while. Most lizes also won't even go for the Ghastly combo unless you've wasted your burst, so there you go.

(Saving your burst is still a really good idea though, since Okusan and Bace are working together to find as many easy realistic confirms into Hama combos as possible atm, which means... yeah, more literal touch of deaths.)

Catching liz also isn't as hard as it seems anymore, it's just really stupid on netplay and nobody knows the matchup, generally. I'll try to do a writeup ~eventually~