[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[Snatcher]

Getting 3K off 5A with GF oki is what I generally get (with mag), seems acceptable to me if that winds up being the max now. The damage off non-mag 5A is going to be beyond terrible now, holy crap. And what about off AA 2A? That's decent starter right now, regardless of magnetism or not too, I guess we can say goodbye to that. With no good combos off non-mag A's and raw AC's, holding up against Tager seems like a very attractive option.

[Osuna]

If you're talking about pre-patch, I was (barely) breaking 3k off of 5A combos with magnetism, and it's unlikely they were perfect.

I'm a little confused. Are you actually helping me by testing what kind of damage is involved with 5A 5B 3C 623C or are you just saying what your current 5A combo is?

The point I'm making is that even if we start with a 4 frame penalty there should be viable combo paths that produce Some damage. Doing some math in my head because I don't have access to the game. The issue is how much stuff just doesn't combo and how we hit 60 frames very early in ground combos.

Things that probably won't work are:

5B>5C standing opp

5C>6A standing opp

6A>236A

j.A>j.C>j.D works if you end the combo before any additional delay is accrued, which isn't possible in off a grounded 5A without doing something really bad.

Actually now that I think about it j.A>j.B>j.C barely works with that restriction, it wouldn't be very good.

5C>6A and 6A>2C both also stop working after 120 frames.

There Really needed to be a category between S and VS. The difference between a -2 stun penalty after 120 frames and -4 at 0 with -6 at 60 is Gigantic! At the same point S starters get their first penalty the VS starters have hit a -9 penalty. Kinda major.

So yeah, training mode challenge, guys!

You can't use those combo paths And no air combos past j.A>j.B>j.C>GP will work after 60f, and even that won't work after 120. For reference ACwhiff and 236A both use about 40f. I think 5A 3C works? I mean the stun penalty probably starts on the second hit. That only makes sense.

[Beat_By-X]

Do you think tager will be less strong after the patch ?

[Koopa_Klawz]

Do you think tager will be less strong after the patch ?

With the 5/2A and backdash nerf, definitely. Not sure how much though.

[natearistata]

Backdash and 360A invul during predictable blockstrings were basically his only defensive options. Nobody good falls for raw 360A with any sort of consistency, and now his backdash is significantly easier to OS. He's going to be pretty free to characters with good pressure, since now the only reliable option will probably be IB until you can alpha counter or whatever it's called

[NumeroGaijin]

He will definitely be mostly in his own tier again in terms of this game if what we are hearing is true. I'm not posting again until some confirmations are made because this is highly disappointing

[SoWL]

He will definitely be mostly in his own tier again in terms of this game if what we are hearing is true. I'm not posting again until some confirmations are made because this is highly disappointing

Not sure what confirmation you want, we have no reason to doubt these Famitsu patch notes.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Tager's damage from 5A was a bit too high when compared to the rest of the cast. Which means that nerfing it makes sense, though I feel like nerfing its proration would've been better than simply making it a non-option as a combo starter.

[Darlos9D]

How much of a damage hit on 5A starter combos are we really talking here? Like I remember in CSX people were excited when we were getting 2.5k off of 5A and right now we get 3k (magnetized of course).

Is this so much of a hit in combo time that the opponent being magnetized won't even matter? Can we reach 2k even?

Also what are Tager's worst matchups exactly? I know Litchi and Valk are pretty much topping that list, but who else? Tao? I don't know about Valk but it looks like everyone else we really care about are seeing some nerfs, so that's kind of an indirect buff.

[TD]

Koko? Haz? They seem very bad for him.

Hang in there guys, tager will be good one day. One...day...

[Darlos9D]

Well those two are also getting the nerf bat. Also I got the sense that Haz wasn't one of our worst fears anymore but I could be mistaken. Koko is just horrible against everybody right now.

[NumeroGaijin]

How much of a damage hit on 5A starter combos are we really talking here? Like I remember in CSX people were excited when we were getting 2.5k off of 5A and right now we get 3k (magnetized of course).

Is this so much of a hit in combo time that the opponent being magnetized won't even matter? Can we reach 2k even?

Also what are Tager's worst matchups exactly? I know Litchi and Valk are pretty much topping that list, but who else? Tao? I don't know about Valk but it looks like everyone else we really care about are seeing some nerfs, so that's kind of an indirect buff.

Over half the cast is a bad matchup for Tager. Amane, Azrael, Carl, Hakumen, Hazama, Kokonoe, Litchi, Rachel, Relius, Taokaka, Valk, V-13, Mu, and Iron Tager lol.

[Brice]

Are you serisous? more than half the cast is a terrible matchup for Tager.

The main problem I see that will hurt a lot isn't that we can't get good damage on 5A starters, but that the abare and the general hitconfirming pressure is going to be shit. Who in their right mind would pressure with 5A > 5B > 3C or even 5A > 3C knowing that it's your only options on standing hit 5A to get a knockdown. The point of having 5B > 5C combos is that it makes an easier time doing better pressure and having a great hitconfirm at the same time.

Pressuring with 5A > 5B > 5C is ok enough to visually react to the 5A hitting first or the 5B hitting first, making you autopilot a 5C to think of the optimal route to take there to get as much damage as possible depending on your starter. Knowing that 5B > 5C will not connect on a 5A starter throws everything out the window and pushing forward the idea of only getting damage off of really slow normals and command grabs. It's not even remotely threatening of getting tagged by a 5A...

[TagerTime]

Over half the cast is a bad matchup for Tager. Amane, Azrael, Carl, Hakumen, Hazama, Kokonoe, Litchi, Rachel, Relius, Taokaka, Valk, V-13, Mu, and Iron Tager lol.

So far 6 out of that list: Hakumen, Hazama, Kokonoe, Litchi, Taokaka, Valk, got hit hard with pretty huge nerfs. I dont know about the rest of them.

[SoWL]

However, all of them beat Tager simply because of their design (extreme mobility, powerful zoning, long hitboxes that out-poke Tager's).

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Well those two are also getting the nerf bat. Also I got the sense that Haz wasn't one of our worst fears anymore but I could be mistaken. Koko is just horrible against everybody right now.

I'd much much much much rather fight Haz than most of Tager's bad matchups. He may have zoning but he still has to close the distance if he wants to do real damage (not that he isn't capable of going toe-to-toe with Tager at close range). His lack of uber long pokes make him more manageable then say Mu/Litchi.

My personal opinions on CP Tager worst MUs is:

Kokonoe (but this is sort of irrelevant to balanced play)

Valk, Mu, Rachel, Tao, Hazama, Litchi, Carl, Relius, in previous games Arakune & Nu would've gone here too. I still consider them poor MUs for Tager but some CP-specific changes make them easier imo.

Even if a character isn't listed I wouldn't necessarily consider them a "good" MU for Tager.

---

I have to admit the idea of 5B>5C not working on a 5A confirm seems like absolute nonsense to me.

[mAc Chaos]

I think Hakumen got way more manageable for Tager in CP. The EX nerfs helped the matchup out a lot. I feel way more pressured by Tager in this one.

[bakahyl]

Mu is probably also more managable in CP than CSE for Tager because of her Habakiri nerf and overall damage nerf. Eventhough her long range c normals are still a nightmare for Tager

[Darlos9D]

I guess I'm jaded and feel like a 4-6 matchup and sometimes even a 3-7 (in the case of, say, strict long-range zoners) is "pretty good." Honestly if our matchups were 4-6 across the board I'd be perfectly happy with Tager. I'll take a challenge, but I don't like facing an absolute tactical shutdown.

I'll take what Ctrlaltwtf said about 5A>5B>5C, agree with it, and go even further and say that I almost feel like its somehow not actually going to work out that way. Then again, Tager did start of not able to combo 5A into anything. Or was it 5A>5B into anything? I can't remember. At any rate maybe they felt like he "needs" to go back to that, but fuck me if I would understand why.

I'll just hope and pray there's something we're not understanding. Will there be loktests for the patch or anything?

[Justice7541]

Unless you're badass enough to somehow avoid 720 on reaction, I'd say the whole 5A > 2.5k > vortex > repeat thing was a little bit too good and probably deserves a nerf.

Honestly Tager's weaknesses have nothing to do with his damage/oki/mixup options, this isn't CT Tager where he couldn't even get in on anyone. He actually fucks with projectile-based zoners quite hard thanks to Sledge now, now it's just the guys with long non-projectile normals that give him problems. 2D buff might help that a bit though so maybe he'll do better overall, less bodying of short-ranged characters and less bodying by long-ranged ones.

[Brice]

I would actually be very happy if that was the case, but Sledge has always been, and will always be quite useless as a tool to get in against projectile based zoners. In fact, doing a Sledge to try and cover space to get in is what you should avoid at all cost, because it's the perfect opportunity to get baited and punished for free.

The main problem I see with the 5A nerf isn't the damage. I am okay with the objective of not being able to get more than X amount of damage (being lower than the 2500~3000 we have right now). That's fine and I totally agree. What I do not like at all is the fact that 5C will not connect after 5B anymore if the combo started on a 5A that hit standing. This is the real problem.

I would've been ok with a big proration nerf on P1 5A that would be perfect for me. (not considering the potential heat gain on a 3-hits 5A combo versus a 10-hits one).

And, yes although Tager is significantly better than he was in any other iteration of the series, his matchups never really changed that much. Over the course of 5 games now, never did we get an addition to our movelist that would palliate the biggest weaknesses he has, like a decent head invulnerability move for example, or an actual option to deal with people running away.

[Errol]

hakumen is the character that has lost the whole being disadvantaged against long range characters. He's one of Rachel's bad matchups.

Not sure that Tager has any 3-7 matchups. Sledge is definitely classic tager. Straight RPS, like everything else he does.

[Valthazeryus]

I would actually be very happy if that was the case, but Sledge has always been, and will always be quite useless as a tool to get in against projectile based zoners. In fact, doing a Sledge to try and cover space to get in is what you should avoid at all cost, because it's the perfect opportunity to get baited and punished for free.

I thought the same about Sledge. I think it's actually be really threatening if they actually gave it Hammerfall properties too where it'll absorb 1 non-projectile damage and actually made it where there wasn't a punishable gap between the Sledge and Hammer. :D

On a serious note, that shit gets baited so hard if you just use it to travel across the map.

The main problem I see with the 5A nerf isn't the damage. I am okay with the objective of not being able to get more than X amount of damage (being lower than the 2500~3000 we have right now). That's fine and I totally agree. What I do not like at all is the fact that 5C will not connect after 5B anymore if the combo started on a 5A that hit standing. This is the real problem.

The 5B > 5C is really bothering me. To be honest, I wished they just nerfed the proration instead. I'll admit, 5A > 5B > 5C > Spark Volt > MTW > TB did quite the number. I think if you just made it prorate a lot more, it'd be balanced, but I don't really like the idea how it's going to change with a whole bunch of strings.

I would've been ok with a big proration nerf on P1 5A that would be perfect for me. (not considering the potential heat gain on a 3-hits 5A combo versus a 10-hits one).

And, yes although Tager is significantly better than he was in any other iteration of the series, his matchups never really changed that much. Over the course of 5 games now, never did we get an addition to our movelist that would palliate the biggest weaknesses he has, like a decent head invulnerability move for example, or an actual option to deal with people running away.

I wish it was like the original Overdrive move they were testing out where his OD would magnetize opponents on activation, pre-magnetized or not as well as made the pull a bit stronger. Actually, just changing the pull property might be better cause with OD, it didn't really seem to be extremely noticeable. Or also just give Slide Head that magnetizes if they get hit. But Slide Head looked stupid in my opinion; maybe give him a move where he just slams his giant fists into the ground and does Slide Head stuff.

[Osuna]

I'm just going to mysteriously appear and drop random tager info that people talked about at some point.

We can Probably hit 2Kish still because 5A 5B 3C 623C whiff 5C 6A 2C 623C GF, should work still. I don't have access to the game (and haven't for a while now), but my haphazard mental math says that should be around 2k.

Tager's GF mix up Sucked Massively before 5A got buffed a few times. The quality of the mix up is very dependent on the damage we get off 5A. 5A is the statistically best option in the mix up. If it doesn't have to be respected at all then the mix up will suck.

Tager's original combo was 5A 5B Spark bolt or RC into stuff. 5A was level 0 though so tick throws were even faster. (even though 360B was slower)

Sledge is still really bad. I know other people covered this, but I just wanted to make sure everyone remembered. Really, really gimmicky move.

[NecroTheReaper]

Just a tidbit of info, trying to combo off a VS starter would be the same as comboing off a CA or green burst, so pretty much all combos are restricted to A>B>C>done. Even my main Relius cant do a meaningful combo off a CA unlike Ex. It'd go CA>2D>combo drops. So very doubtful that you can do that combo.

[Darlos9D]

Yeah sledge is, like, a situational hard call-out at neutral and defense. It is NOT a mobility tool hoo boy it is not hammer fall.

Osuna I'm gonna trust your computer-like mind about that combo. Regarding the abare off of 5A: if we can do that combo then I'm pretty sure that we can realize whether or not we're actually hitting them by 5B. If the 5A hits then you can realize it by the 5B and go into 3C. If the 5A is blocked you can realize it by the 5B and go into 5C regardless of whether or not 5B hits or is blocked. Maybe it's harder than just auto-piloting until 5C but I think we can manage.

Hell even if we can't do that combo, that's still the logic path we need to learn. However, 3C > AC whiff is kind of some silly bullshit untech-wise, so I wouldn't be surprised if we can get a bit more mileage out of a VS starter than one might think.