[P4A] Okizeme Stuff

[ZomB]

Disclaimer: None of this works against Teddie. You have to approach him differently. Moving on now.

Okay so some weird stuff can happen off okizeme and I'm going to put it all in here, things to watch out for, answers, answers to the answers. etc. So there are two situations primary situations where you can get oki:

Ground combo -> Sweep 5DD

Air combo -> j8D/5C -> AoA -> microdash5DD

The latter almost always setups for "perfect oki" there are a couple situations where the AoA might hit a little weird, and in the corner I recommend omitting the dash because throws can act unpredictably but otherwise you'll generally get the full mixups off of it.

On defense there's almost nothing you can do about this. If you can feel it out properly a 5f 5a or a throw can beat it out -- but honestly if there is a way to tell a good aoa 5DD from a bad aoa 5DD I couldn't tell you. You're betting on luck, and there are way more good 5DDs than bad 5DDs here.

Now for Sweep 5DD there are a few interesting things to point out here.

There are actually two parts of 5DD, the initial hits ("5D") and the followthrough ("5DD")

If you do Sweep -> 5DD immiediately, the initial hits actually whiff, and the followthrough doesn't hit until frame 6, so a lot of characters have answers to this as follows:

Aigis: 5A, Backdash

Akihiko: 5A, 2A

Chie: 5A

Liz: Backdash

Naoto: SB Stance(aka ex roll)

Yosuke: 5A

Narukami: 5A

Mitsuru: 2B

[All characters can throw you if you are really close]

Characters with no answer(abuse this setup, especially midscreen):

Labrys, Shadow Labrys, Kanji, Yukiko

Immediate 5DD offers you great oki if your opponent must/does respect it. The pushback is minimal and you can get a very clean mixup. If they tech very late you can 2A (5DD connects) AoA and put them back in to the same situation.

What if they tech immediately, try to jump, and get hit out of the air? -- this happens sometimes. You can actually combo (5dd connects, jBB, j8D AoA) to reset the situation. Be very careful of confirming whether the j8D will hit properly, sometimes the last hit can whiff and your AoA will be very unsafe.

In general you should always block first until you confirm that the opponent is blocking your oki, otherwise you might commit to a mixup and get hit by late tech DP. Be especially careful against these characters with air unblockable wakeups--

Akihiko: B+D, DP Super

Narukami: B+D

Mitsuru: Bufudyne Super

Now once your opponent knows how to deal with immediate 5DD oki you need to start delaying your 5DD, and this is when things start getting a little interesting. In the corner this will net you "perfect oki" with proper timing, and even more +f than the immediate oki. However midscreen the inital hits(5D) have more pushback, and if the opponent immediate techs and holds [4] they will walk out of the oki. Freeing them up to 2B, DP, Super etc something random since they are not in blockstun. Additionally a well timed late tech between the last hit of 5DD and the next-to-last hit allows enough space to jump out.

In the midscreen it's not always possible to get a mixup against a player who knows what they are doing(unless they are very very close to you when hit by the sweep), but you can often score hits by catching them "playing properly" -- if you convince them to crouch block the delayed 5DD, they won't take the step back and will be forced to block the entire move, here you can start throwing in immediate dash 2A's after the delayed 5DD to both catch both late techs and attempts to escape. This can be beaten by immediate tech -> DP, but generally the risk reward is very strongly in Chie's favor.

You can guarantee blockstun at least by laying out 5DD and then confirming the first hits being blocked and following up with a dash 5A, putting you at advantage and allowing you to corner the opponent.

ADDITIONALLY there are two other times you can get guaranteed oki that some Chies do not know about.

After a counterhit B+D midscreen, you can dash 2DD and force your opponent to block it. The same goes for any low proration midscreen combo with a B skullcracker(5a5b2b236a~236b-crouching only, for instance) -- you are able to dash 2DD and force them to block it. However the timing is rather strict, and if you over-dash your opponent will be able to DP you, while if you under-dash they will be free.

I've included everything I can think of atm, ask if you have any questions about chie oki (defense and offense)

Edit: here are some "guaranteed escapes" and chie's best answer to them.

Any invincible super -> immediate rapid cancel(be sure to block low in case chie B+D's the super):

Once you see Tomoe, if you have 100 meter you are free to super + rapid. This takes a card from Chie's persona and if she makes a mistake she will be hit. Be sure to rapid because a good Chie player will block or counter the super, you don't want to be punished.

B+D -> install(Akihiko, Chie):

here if Chie blocks the B+D you get frame advantage. The best she can do is avoid blocking it and then try to meaty you. A lot of times if she already jumped you can punish it with a 2B.

Guard Cancel -> Rapid(does not apply to Liz)

It's easier for chie to avoid these than supers in general, so she may still be at frame advantage, but at least you won't get mixed up. Make sure to have a rapid ready because she shouldn't get hit by it. You will take a persona card.

Any of the above options are actually pretty ok against chie if she only has 1 persona card left, her damage without tomoe is on the weak side.

Edit2:

After a D godfist you can use [8] j.A to get a safejump. This is highly recommended against characters who have strong ways to escape Chie's oki options with the extra awakening meter they will have, or if you only have 1 persona card and don't want to get persona broken.

[Andru]

Tell me about j.D oki, ZomB-chan~

[ZomB]

Sorry this is pretty sloppy, but it's not all common knowledge and I spent a while thinking about how it can be organized -- and I just decided the info needed to get out.

[ZomB]

Tell me about j.D oki, ZomB-chan~

every char can 2a against j2d except uhhh kanji I think. I don't remember, there's just one exception. The only time I'll use j2d in oki is sweep jc j2d against teddie.

[superscience890]

Yosuke can't super cancel his BD.

[ZomB]

Thanks. I wasn't completely sure, I hadn't seen it done but I don't play with any Yosukes regularly.

[TheSeltsamOne]

Thanks a lot for this, I really need to improve my oki! I do have a couple questions though:

How much of a delay should I put on 5DD to stop wake-up jab? Whenever I try it Tomoe is always punched out of startup. Should I be timing it so the first swing of 5D hits, or should I be delaying so it comes out after the jab?

Also, what's the best way to punish Yukiko DPing out of oki?

[ZomB]

Thanks a lot for this, I really need to improve my oki! I do have a couple questions though:

How much of a delay should I put on 5DD to stop wake-up jab? Whenever I try it Tomoe is always punched out of startup. Should I be timing it so the first swing of 5D hits, or should I be delaying so it comes out after the jab?

Also, what's the best way to punish Yukiko DPing out of oki?

You only need to delay it the 5DD a few frames. It's a very small amount of time that makes a big difference. You'll know you're doing it right if people start getting pushed out of Tomoe. Your goal is for 5D to hit your opponent meaty, rather than whiffing it and having 5DD hit them a little bit late.

Against Yukiko if you bait her DP on the ground you can get a 5B(CH) punish, but if you chickenblock the DP it gets a little bit harder, I'd recommend jB(ch) dash 5A 5B 2B sweep(or more in the corner)

[Isuyaru]

Some things to add:

You should mention situations where sweep > delay 5DD works midscreen. Off the top of my head, sandwich combos that end in 5C/2C > sweep or anything into dash 5A 5B sweep.

"if you convince them to crouch block the delayed 5DD, they won't take the step back and will be forced to block the entire move"

In my experience, this only causes them to block one extra hit (the very first hit of 5DD?) before they get out, so it just adds a little bit of blockstun. Unless you know something I don't that makes this work the way you say. Oh yeah, should also mention how IBing makes you block more of it and is actually bad.

"(5dd connects, jBB, j8D AoA)"

This doesn't work. It's not about getting the j.8D to hit properly, it just actually doesn't work. I think you got mixed up because air hit 2DD j.BB j.8D AOA does work, and you just confused it with 5DD. You can do doublejump j.A before the last hit of j.8D to get a knockdown without oki, which is probably the best option.

There's nothing special about Liz's backdash, almost anyone can backdash out of sweep > immediate 5DD. Just not Kanji.

This thread should also mention the advantages and disadvantages of simply letting 5D finish instead of using 5DD midscreen. Basically, you get more blockstun, but if you try to go for the mixup, there's a gap they can DP out of. Of course, you can bait the DP, so it's still okay for Chie. If the opponent late techs, you have plenty of time to just hit D again and make 5DD come out.

Narukami late tech DP against corner oki is interesting. It's pretty easy to get hit by the air unblockable part due to the added hitstop from Tomoe. 2A > dash jump forward seems to dodge it consistently, but you can also try to use the extra hitstop from hitting Tomoe to react with a double jump and block. Akihiko's is pretty similar.

[Killerwatt]

Couple questions (and please excuse my ignorance)

1. What is a microdash?

2. What is a good way to practice oki setups in training mode? How should I set each summy's actions, specifically?

Thanks for the help!

[Celerity]

Couple questions (and please excuse my ignorance)

1. What is a microdash?

2. What is a good way to practice oki setups in training mode? How should I set each summy's actions, specifically?

Thanks for the help!

1. A microdash is basically just a really short dash. Usually you'll input it by pressing the button at the same time as the 2nd 6, so 6 6C as opposed to 6 6...C.

2. I don't really do this so I don't know, but you could alternate setting them to block high/low if all you want is to practice your BnBs and have them block spear spin. Honestly it's probably better to practice this kind of stuff against real people, or at the very least a CPU so that you get a feel for how to confirm.

[Mo the Hawk]

I had a lot of time this past week, so I've been spending it cleaning up my 5D oki game after a mid-screen sweep. Namely ensuring that I never get hit by a wake-up Furious Action/R-Action/DP or wake-up super ever again.

I highly recommend practicing your technique for holding back (either 7, 4, or 1) while dash jumping forward after a Sweep > 5D. This will keep you safe from most DPs. However, this can also make going for the "Chie/Tomoe sandiwch" easy to screw up. You may find it difficult to air-dash properly after jumping over your opponent. It's very easy to accidentally slide a 7 or a 1 to a 4 before you intend to return to 5 and hit 66, thus causing you to air-dash backwards when you hit your first 6. (which in this case is still a 4 because you haven't completely jumped over to the other side yet) In other words, make sure you don't accidentally buffer a 4 in advance of the actual air-dash input you want to do.

If you want to block by holding 7 or 4 while jumping over someone, make certain that you're cleanly returning the stick to neutral before inputting your air-dash. Personally I recommend practicing getting a feel for a half-circle motion ending in 4. So the input for a mid-screen sweep 5D oki setup would be: Sweep > 5DD > 66987[4]. Then let go of 4 to give yourself enough of a gap to allow for a clean 66 input. And MAKE SURE YOU HIT THAT 9, otherwise you'll neutral jump or jump backwards. Get a feel for sliding 6 to 9, then to 7, and finally to 4.

The last 2 paragraphs are a reflection of my findings playing on an arcade stick with a square gate. Obviously your preferred controller may differ, but the principles are the same, so practice with whatever you feel most comfortable with.

I've also taken a lot of notes about how to approach each character to make sure that if they try to DP or super out of your 5D setup, they're going to regret it (or spend a lot of resources to find a safe way out). The fact is, there are some players out there that simply refuse to block. And to a lesser extent, there are also players who will occasionally block, but also occasionally gamble with a wake-up DP or super just to keep you guessing. I want to shut down both of these kinds of players.

ZomB already covered most of the points about how to adjust your setup if the opponents starts using "free escape options" so I won't go over those again. Just remember to adjust the timing of 5D after sweep if they start 5-frame jabbing / backdashing / etc.

Characters with legit escape options are highlighted in red, with their options in parentheses. Adjust accordingly.

FOR LATE TECHERS: Sweep > Immediate 5DD > Dash up 2A > AOA > reset

Narukami (5F 5A)

• Never dash jump forward. You’ll get hit by the AUB portion of his DP. Always be normal jumping.
  
• Punish a blocked DP mid-screen by walking underneath him to the other side (to screw up his inputs for a mid-air Ziodyne cancel, and also to remove the risk of a Cross Slash cancel when he touches the ground) and doing the 5B > 5C air combo punish.
  
• You’ll be safe from both of his wake-up supers. If it’s wake-up Cross Slash, air dash over his head to punish him without having to block it. (He won't be in counter-hit state, though. Don't get hit out of a 5B > 2D that doesn't link together!)
  
  
  Mitsuru (2B)
  
  • Because her’s is so fast, you only need to hold back to block for a split second. As an added bonus it will be an Instant Block for free extra meter.
    
  • After blocking her DP in the air, buffer your 5B input so you perform 5B the moment you touch the ground. If done properly you’ll catch her with 5B > 5C before she touches the ground for a safe punish. If mistimed at all though, you run the risk of eating The Scumbag Super. If you want to tell whether or not your punish will be safe, pay attention to Chie's height relative to Mitsuru when the block happens. If Chie is lower to the ground than Mitsuru, Chie will hit the ground first and you're clear for the punish. If they're at even level or Mitsuru is lower, check Mitsuru's SP before deciding whether or not to punish.
    
  • PAY ATTENTION TO HER SP AT ALL TIMES. If she has 50 she can wake-up Bufudyne to catch you jumping forward in any way. Once she gets 50, you need to stop jumping forward. Either simply wait, or neutral jump. Neutral jumping will let you air backdash away from the Bufudyne, then run up and punish.
    
  • Things get tricky if she starts utilizing the 2B escape option. Sweep > Delay > 5D will shut this down, but if you jump forward for a high-low mixup afterwards, and she decides to DP instead, you'll get hit because the engine disables your ability to block in the first 7 frames of your jump. If you want to stay safe here, you're going to have to sacrifice your high-low mixup and do: Sweep > Delay > 5D > Wait and Block > Dash 5A to keep up pressure. If she's still wake-up DP'ing, you get a punish which should hopefully discourage her from trying it again.
    
    
    Yukiko
    
    • You’re safe from everything as long as you hold back to block while dash jumping forward. As an added bonus, the game engine will even auto-correct your blocking direction if you've already jumped to the other side when you block it. Landing after blocking it leaves you in perfect position and timing to CH punish this DP that is otherwise pretty difficult to punish.
      
    • Because of her DP's relatively long start-up, Yukiko is one of the characters that will force you to perfect your timing for holding a blocking direction for the right amount of time, so practice to make sure that you'll both block DPs and your mix-ups will still be clean if she does nothing and blocks the 5DD.
      
    • Don’t air-turn when you’re right on top of Yukiko’s head; you run the risk of getting counter-hit by her DP.
      
      
      Naoto (SB Aim)
      
      • You’re safe from everything as long as you hold back to block while jumping forward. Similar situation as Yukiko. If Naoto decides to delay the the shot/explosion, you'll either auto-correct block it or already be behind her.
        
      • If she abuses SB Aim, start delaying your Sweep > 5D. Her DP is slow enough that you can still dash before jumping forward while using the Sweep > Delay > 5D setup and still be safe.
        
        
        Aigis (5F 5A, Backdash, Orgia Back Boost)
        
        • If she has 50 SP, she can super-cancel DP into Goddess Shield. No matter how much meter she has, though, don't push any buttons until she touches the ground. By running forward, you could potentially bait out the Goddess Shield. And if she doesn't cancel, well, she's still in CH state on the ground, so go for max damage.
          
        • If she’s mashing Orgia Back Boost on wakeup, dash up and CH 5B her instead of jumping forward for a mixup, then air combo > j.8D > AOA. Sweep > Delay > 5D will also work, but she'll just get hit by 5D, and you won't be able to confirm that hit into another hard knockdown and another setup.
          
          
          Labrys
          
          • Her DP is slow as molasses, so you don’t need to hold back to block while dash jumping!
            
          • Just pay attention to her SP. DP can be super cancelled, and if you have to block Breaking Wheel you are at disadvantage. Luckily you can Quick Escape through it on reaction.
            
            
            Shadow Labrys
            
            • You don’t need to hold back to block while dash jumping! Instead focus on dash jumping ASAP. If done properly you’ll jump over her and her DP for a CH punish.
              
            • PAY ATTENTION TO HER SP. DP is cancellable into Brutal Impact. … Never get hit by Brutal Impact.
              

            Kanji

            [*]If you let go of your block at all before going for your mix-up, you’re getting shocked. This requires some adjustment in the timing of your jump. Take a split second after doing 5DD before running and jumping. Kanji’s DP has a long enough startup to allow this. You’ll still have time to block from your starting side, and it will make your air-dash input after jumping over him easier. You could also choose to input your dash ASAP like usual, and then put a delay between the dash and the jump. So take your pick between 5DD > Delay > 66987[4], or 5DD > 6[6] > 987[4]. Whichever is easier for you.

            [*]You COULD hold back to block for the entire duration between your jump-in and your mix up, but you’re going to have to be extremely precise in the transition between letting go of your blocking direction, and then air-dashing as part of your mixup. It’s very easy to screw up your mix-up this way, and you want to make your opponent respect your mixup.

            [*]PAY ATTENTION TO HIS SP. He can cancel his DP into either of his supers. If you’re standing in place or running towards him when he decides to cancel into his Awakening super, you’re toast, so if you want to be safe, go for a j.C > j.B punish.

            Akihiko (5F 5A, 5F 2A)

            [*]You don’t need to hold back to block while dash jumping! Instead focus on dash jumping ASAP. If done properly, you’ll jump over him and his DP for a CH punish. If you’re too late with your jump, though, you’ll get hit by the AUB portion of his DP.

            [*]If you want to play it completely safe, just normal jump forward while holding back to block. The AUB portion of his DP won’t reach you, and you’ll block the 2nd hit. You may have to start doing this anyway if the Akihiko knows to 5A or 2A out of 5D for free, and you’ll need to start delaying.

            [*]PAY ATTENTION TO HIS SP. He can cancel DP into any of his supers. DP into Thunder Fists is completely safe, and DP into Cyclone Upper can catch you trying to run up and punish with 5B.

            Yosuke (5F 5A)

            [*]You don’t need to hold back to block while dash jumping! Instead focus on dash jumping ASAP. If done properly, his DP will trigger, but you’ll jump over his head, your persona doesn't break, and you still get your sandwich combo. If you’re too late with your jump, though, you’ll get tripped.

            [*]Unfortunately he's not in CH state after his DP is triggered, and even if he was, he's going to get hit by 5DD before anything else, so unless you're in the corner or have lots of SP stocked, you won't get much damage. But you do need to keep this in mind for mash-happy Youskes that will screw you up for trying to punish with 5B > 2D.

            Chie (5F 5A)

            [*]You don’t need to hold back to block while dash jumping! Her DP is easy to jump over completely if you’re dash jumping.

            [*]Punishing her DP is hard. If you absolutely want a CH punish, you can’t be jumping at all for your mix-up, and you’ll have to wait and bait it out. Walk backwards then punish with 5B > 5C before she touches the ground. Or if you want to get fancy and have the timing nailed down, 214C > OMC > 5C or 214C > 236236A > 66 > 5C for big punishes. She can cancel the early mid-air frames of her DP into Agneyastra though, so keep that in mind.

            [*]She is not in CH state when she hits the ground, and she recovers really fast, so practice dashing and 5A'ing her ASAP. On the plus side, she will be crouching, so you can get a 5AAA crouch-only combo.

            [*]DP > Power Charge is a free ticket out of the setup, but you shouldn't be pushing any buttons so that's all it gets her. If she does this, air backdash away to avoid getting air-grabbed, 2B'd, or anything else that would give her the advantage.

            Elizabeth (Backdash)

            [*]lol

            [*]To beat mashing backdash, just delay 5DD. Don’t even stop at 5D; the hitstun from 5DD will lock her in place if she tries to backdash.

            Teddie (DP)

            [*]

            [*]You know the score here. Sweep > j.C > j.2D instead of ground oki to take away his DP option, then continue to apply pressure with caution.

[Primiera]

Good stuff, Mo!