Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Digital Watches

AC: Advanced Axl Bullshit: Benten.

Recommended Posts

As I'm sure most of you know, Axl's dragon punch, Bentengari (623H and 623S) is a little lacking: Neither version has any frames of full invincibility, they both have a lot of recovery, and neither is particularly strong for damage. However, it is important to learn the few uses for these moves as reversal, pressure, and even combo tools.

FRC

S Benten FRC is no harder than rensen FRC in terms of frame leniency, but because of a few factors, it's by far the hardest FRC for Axl players to use effectively. Firstly, the FRC is very early in the move (Frames 7 and 8. Even slightly above average visual reaction time is around 9F), meaning that one has to input the FRC before they can hitconfirm. Secondly, the FRC window is after three of the active frames of the move have happened, meaning that if the moves connects on its first few active frames (Whether it hits or is blocked), the FRC is actually 14 frames later than if it whiffs. What this means is that in order to use the FRC effectively, you'll have to learn two timings: The "hit" timing, and the "whiff" timing. But it's only a little extra work, and definitely worth it.

Reversal

Using Benten as a reversal requires two things: First, you have to know what you're trying to beat. Obviously, low meaties are going to be H Benten, and high meaties are going to be S Benten. If you don't know what it's going to be before you input, just block instead. I realize that it's not always going to be possible to know for sure, but it's a big risk to take if you're not at least 90% sure. Also, since it's a lot faster and high meaties are a lot slower, you'll be using S benten in a lot more situations than H. Actually, the only real low I consistently go for H benten against is meaty slidehead, but if you see other lows coming, it may be a good idea in other situations. Don't even bother for things like Slayer's 5H. It's better to just block any move that will at some point in the move hit both upper and lower body. With either reversal, you should have at least 30% meter, I'd say 50 is ideal. This is both a failsafe and a combo starter. First off, if the opponent manages to trick you and block, you can continue H benten into Bomber, kokuu FRC, and be prepared to FD on your way down. This isn't very safe from airthrows, however. For light benten, you should ALWAYS input an FRC. If you have 50% meter, you should only input the late timing if you're absolutely sure it'll connect. The early timing covers you on whiff, and is an RC on hit/block, whereas the late timing screws you over if you whiff, as you'll have to take the whole recovery of the move.

In pressure

A blocked S benten FRC makes a great tick throw, but rensen FRC can serve the same purpose even better. So why use it in pressure? Throw invincibility. A lot of Axl's blockstrings are not true blockstrings, in that even though you remain at frame advantage, the opponent is not in blockstun the whole time. If a smart opponent starts IBing, they might be able to throw you out of a lot of things, which is not good. Benten (both) is Axl's only throw-invincible move on the ground, and thus SCing into it can punish throw attempts, as kind of an inferior but nonetheless useful version of Eddie's drunkard shade. There are some funny frame traps you can do with it, but that's matchup stuff. Otherwise, it basically functions as a version of Rensen FRC with less range and blockstun (IE not as good).

Oki

Using Benten on Oki is, again, a way to punish throw attempts. Since it's throw-invincible on frame 1, you can run and do it at the last possible moment, making it very hard to tell it's coming. You can also use a meaty benten to duck high reversals, and if you get the meaty timing down, you can make the move hit on the FRC frames, making the whiff FRC timing and the hit FRC timing the same (And it's probably the safest thing Axl can do as oki, as if you time it that way, you FRC on the first frame they could possibly be doing a reversal, meaning it'll both hit Sol on wakeup and allow you to block if he VVs, something other Axl meaties can't do.)

Combos and Setups

We all know about knockdown combos into H benten, but S benten has some interesting combos as well. A close or counterhit Benten F/RC will allow for a standard air combo that does more damage than a similar combo started from a Rensen FRC. Meanwhile, comboing into benten FRC (or just doing it from too far away to combo into 6K or sj.K), is a good airthrow setup, as the untech time is long enough to run forward a bit and jump most of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And it's probably the safest thing Axl can do as oki, as if you time it that way, you FRC on the first frame they could possibly be doing a reversal, meaning it'll both hit Sol on wakeup and allow you to block if he VVs, something other Axl meaties can't do.

This is two or three to the greatest thing ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have to stop neglecting Benten from now on. It's just the FRC is so hard for me to get right on hit... Back to practice mode. Thanks, DW, for the awesome info. I didn't think of any of this (besides Benten as an occasional reversal).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9F :( Why are we so slow? :vbang: Is this effective in #R as well? (If you know off hand)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. Reading over this, I realized something.

Actually, the only real low I consistently go for H benten against is meaty slidehead, but if you see other lows coming, it may be a good idea in other situations.

The way this is worded is unclear. Does H benten actually beat the meaty slide for another knockdown, or do you mean if Pot uses it up close? I was under the impression that if the Pot player timed it perfectly, there was nothing you could do about being knocked down again on wakeup by slidehead, but if H benten actually does win over that, then that'd be lovely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. Reading over this, I realized something.

The way this is worded is unclear. Does H benten actually beat the meaty slide for another knockdown, or do you mean if Pot uses it up close? I was under the impression that if the Pot player timed it perfectly, there was nothing you could do about being knocked down again on wakeup by slidehead, but if H benten actually does win over that, then that'd be lovely.

Yes, H Benten beats out meaty slide head, even if it's not blockable, since the lower-body invincibility starts at frame one and slide head only hits the floor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, H Benten beats out meaty slide head, even if it's not blockable, since the lower-body invincibility starts at frame one and slide head only hits the floor.

That is so unbelievably awesome. I have motivation to use H Benten now.:yaaay:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its not very good but that dosnt matter if it gets the trick done. while H benten is a more ballzy move i dont think its any good for that purpose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't tested the distances yet, but I figure if Pot wants to be close enough to try for Aegis Reflector loops and you did it right, Benten H should be able to hit him and get a combo off of a bomber extension and Koku FRC (or just a knockdown off of just the bomber extension), though. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's definitely times where using Benten H instead of a backdash there is the difference between between being able to gain momentum and reverting to neutral. Reverting to neutral isn't a terrible thing for Axl, especially in the Pot matchup, but dealing damage is always better than not dealing damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For slidehead, backdashing is dumb. There's no risk to doing benten if you time the reversal right, and it's the difference between a knockdown and being in Pot's offense for longer. If you're going to try and backdash, you may as well try to reversal 1fJ. It's harder, but the reward is much better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the reversal backdash window one frame, whereas the reversal attack window is two? If that's the case, then I would always go for the reversal attack. 1F timings are just too hard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

definetly if pot is in your face going for the ublockable lidehead H benten gives you some dmg and a knockdown but i will not agree to that backdashing away from pot when hes in recovery from slidehead still keeps you in pots offense

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

definetly if pot is in your face going for the ublockable lidehead H benten gives you some dmg and a knockdown

but i will not agree to that backdashing away from pot when hes in recovery from slidehead still keeps you in pots offense

Fair enough, still, I'd take offense over neutral anyday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, still, I'd take offense over neutral anyday.

Agreed. And, why did you change the thread name? I thought it was awesome.:I:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I don't see why bothering putting "AC" in the thread knowing there are ONLY discussions about Accent Core here... I guess putting "#R" ou "Slash" would be usefull, but "AC" ? Anyway nice job there ! The more I read your technical advices, the more I want to play Axl ^^ BTW, why not putting it as a "sticky" ? It's technical information after all. Whether it's "bullshit" or not doesn't matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I don't see why bothering putting "AC" in the thread knowing there are ONLY discussions about Accent Core here...

I guess putting "#R" ou "Slash" would be usefull, but "AC" ?

Anyway nice job there ! The more I read your technical advices, the more I want to play Axl ^^

BTW, why not putting it as a "sticky" ? It's technical information after all. Whether it's "bullshit" or not doesn't matter.

It's a bit narrow-focused to be a sticky. Maybe if we get a bunch of advanced shenanigans together in one thread, we can sticky that, but for now this will do, as long as it doesn't get pruned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's something I've been playing around with: Near the corner, combo into Benten H-->Bomber Extention RC-->H Bomber. This'll net you a B-loop, which is never a bad thing. It's not something I'd use every chance I got, but it's useful nonetheless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's something I've been playing around with: Near the corner, combo into Benten H-->Bomber Extention RC-->H Bomber. This'll net you a B-loop, which is never a bad thing. It's not something I'd use every chance I got, but it's useful nonetheless.

I guess, but then why not combo into rensen FRC for half the meter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess, but then why not combo into rensen FRC for half the meter?

Because you'd still need FB Bomber most of the time, which brings it back to 50%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×