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AC+R: Combos

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+R Dropped. OH GOD I DO NO DAMAGE!

Talk Axl combos here.

NOTATION USED BY ME: (Assume anything I don't mention is whatever's standard on DL)

- denotes a cancel from one move to another. Gatling, special cancel, jump cancel, whatever. For example, 2H-2D-Rensen is all cancels.

, denotes a link. For example, 5H-6H, 2S implies a gatling from H to 6H, then a link to 2S.

RCs, FDCs, and FRCs are not noted like cancels, just note them in parens. For example, Kokuu (FRC), 5P should be listed like a link, because you're not cancelling the FRC into anything.

... denotes a delay. For example, 2D-Rensen (FRC) ... 5P implies a delay between the rensen FRC and the 5P

In air gatlings, I use lack of spaces to denote air normal gatlings and dashes to denote other kinds of cancels, including landing and using ground normals. Only write j. once, and write it again if you mean jump again. For example, the combo c.S-H-Rensen (FRC), 66 c.S-JI-2S-sj.KPK-j.HD-Kokuu has one superjump and one doublejump in it.

I often write names of specials for visual and conceptual clarity. If you're playing this character, you should know roughly what your specials are called anyway

If you can, please make note of what characters a combo works on (Or, if it's a fairly universal combo, characters it does not work on) For example, (From midscreen) c.S-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66-2S-j.D-Bomber (Works on Slayer, Johnny, Dizzy, Justice, and Faust)

Please list superjumps separately from normal jumps For example, the combo (in the corner) Throw, j.PD-Bomber works on a lot of characters. The combo Throw, sj.PD-Bomber doesn't work on most characters.

The abbreviation for Hard slash in combos is H. If you write "HS", it's confusing and I will hunt you down.

One of many stickies to come.

Edited by Digital Watches

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This is obviously incomplete, but my hand is killing me. I'll get to finishing the list soon enough.

I think it makes some sense to look at Axl's mid-screen Rensen BnBs in two parts: Leading into Rensen (FRC) and After Rensen (FRC). For the most part, you can mix and match from these two categories to build a functioning combo.

To that end:

Mid-screen Rensen combos

Notes

  • Unless otherwise noted, combos are character-universal...
  • ...or should be, anyway. I didn't test every combo on every character; I mostly used heuristics to feel out potential weak spots.


Part I: Leading into Rensen (FRC)
For any of the combos listed below, you should be able to start at any point in the chain at least two normals before the Rensen (FRC) instead of the listed starting point.

  • 5K or 2K-2D-Rensen (FRC)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-Rensen (FRC)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-f.S-Rensen (FRC)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-5H-Rensen (FRC) (Does not work on Kliff. He's too short for c.S-5H to combo properly.)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-2D-Rensen (FRC)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-5H-2D-Rensen (FRC) (Does not work on Kliff. He's too short for c.S-5H to combo properly.)
  • 5K or 2K-c.S-2P-f.S-Rensen (FRC) (Can make some Part II combos tough, as it pushes the opponent pretty far away; in particular, 66-etc. combos get more difficult.)


    • 5K-3P-f.S-Rensen (FRC)
    • 5K-3P-2D-Rensen (FRC)
    • 5K-3P-2H-2D-Rensen (FRC)



      Part II: After Rensen (FRC)

      Combos that end in H Benten-Bomber Followup

      • 66, 6K-2S-H Benten-Bomber Followup (For Bridget, Dizzy, Baiken, Jam, and Kliff, do 66...6K instead of 66, 6K.)
      • 66, c.S-2S-H Benten-Bomber Followup
      • IAD...j.H, 2S-H Benten-Bomber Followup (Does not work on Johnny or Kliff.)


        Combos that end in Kokuu

        • 66, c.S-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu
        • 66, c.S-JI-2S-sj.KPK-j.HD-Kokuu ("The Digital Watches BnB")
        • 66, 2S-6K(1)-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu
        • IAD...j.H, 2S-sj.HD-Kokuu (Does not work on Johnny or A.B.A.)
        • 66, 5H-6H, 5K-5P-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu (Needs to be tested more. Very finicky combo. Pretty sure it only connects if you've done no more than 8 hits before the 5H. I'm not actually sure the cost-benefit of learning it is that good.)

        Combos that end in FB Bomber-(66, j.D)-Kokuu

        Combos that lead into Bomber loop

        25% tension

        [*]66, c.S-2S-sj.HD-Bomber, 66, 2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen, 2 (Your opponent must basically be in the corner after the j.D. Works on Sol, Anji, ?)

        50% tension

        [*]IAD, j.D-FB Bomber, Bomber, 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen, 2 Does not work on Johnny, Robo-Ky, or A.B.A.)

Edited by Silmerion

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Some stuff: 5H-6H, Something is a good link for certain situations, and will lead to optimal damage in some. Things I've gotten to link from 6H: 5K, c.S, 2S. This implies to me that at a bunch of viable places where this might be your combo, you have about 9-10F to link something (I've gotten the 2S and c.S to hit pretty high without going black beat on some characters, so it's up in the air.) Since bomber prorates so much this game, leadups into your combo are going to matter a lot, and 5H-6H will carry pretty far, so basically just don't count it out yet.

Additionally: Some 5K starters you haven't mentioned:

66, 5K-5P(2)-2S(1)-6K(2)-Rensen (Works on Venom, Slayer, Dizzy, Eddie, Axl, Pot, I-No, Jam, Testament, Justice, Anji, ABA, and Millia) (Only against standing opponents) THE CROWD PLEASER

5K-6P-c.S-5H-Rensen (5K-6P will not work on crouching Zappa or Faust, c.S-5H will not work on standing Kliff (Notably, Kliff does get combo'd by c.S-5H if he is crouching))

5K-c.S-2H-2D-Rensen

5K-6P-3P-2H-2D-Rensen (Best damage from 5K if you don't have the meter to continue, works on the cast minus crouching Zappa and Faust, who 5K-6P won't connect on) 142 damage on Sol

Etc.

My point is that while it's fun to exhaustively find all the things that will work, this is a chain-based game, so it's probably more worthwhile to list damage, figure out what's optimal, and list that on the main post. If a combo is better for some reason other than doing more damage (Carrying further, guaranteed knockdown, less character-specific, less setup-specific, a good setup for a trap, or something), it's probably also worth noting, but a lot of these are just variations that don't do much different, and so new players are likely to be overwhelmed.

Edited by Digital Watches

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This is way easier, then!

I'm gonna argue that the most important mid-screen Rensen (FRC) combo you can learn is

5K-3P-2H-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66, c.S-sj.HD-Kokuu [167] (Works on everyone)

The reason I like this better than 5K-6P-3P is going straight to 5K-3P connects a little further away.

If you're planning to end with Kokuu, you should probably do

5K-3P-2H-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66, c.S-JI-2S-sj.KPK-j.HD-Kokuu [162] (Works on everyone)

instead, as it's more burst-safe. If you want to end in a knockdown with no extra meter spent, I'd do

5K-3P-2H-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66, 6K-2S-H Benten-Bomber Followup [157] (For Bridget, Dizzy, Baiken, Jam, and Kliff, do 66...6K instead of 66, 6K.)

One thing of note here is that the damage on the knockdown variant isn't much lower than the Kokuu variant. It seems worth doing more often now.

Outside of anti-airs, I'm not really sure when to go into FB Bomber-etc. this game. FB Bomber-Kokuu or FB Bomber-j.D-Kokuu don't add much after a lead-up into Rensen (FRC), and it seems hard to convert into Bomber loops from it. Am I just being a scrub?

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Messing around with confirms from meterless Raei into the corner:

Raei, 5H-6H, c.S-2S-sj.D-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 252 on Kliff (Hard knockdown, just out of the corner) Works on Kliff, Dizzy, Anji, Testament, Bridget

Raei, 5H-6H, c.S-2S-sj.HD-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 248 on Zappa (Hard knockdown, just out of the corner) Works on Zappa, Axl, Slayer, Justice

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.D-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 245 on Venom (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on Milla, Eddie, Venom

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, jD-Bomber, Rensen 229 on Sol (Hard knockdown in the corner) Works on Sol, Order Sol

Raei, 5H-6H, c.S-sj.HD-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 247 on Faust (Hard knockdown, just out of the corner) Works on Faust

Raei, 5H-6H, c.S-2S-sj.HD-Bomber, 66-2S-jHD-Bomber, Rensen-2 215 on Potemkin (Hard knockdown, just out of the corner) Works on Potemkin

Raei, 5H-6H, c.S-2S-sj.K-Bomber, 66-2S-jK-Bomber, Rensen-2 231 on Jam (Hard knockdown, just out of the corner) Works on Jam

Raei, c.S-5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, jD-Bomber, Rensen 295 on Chipp (Hard knockdown in the corner) Works on Chipp

Raei, c.S-5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 202 on ABA (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on ABA

Raei, c.S-5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66-c.S-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 239 on Johnny (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on Johnny

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 253 on I-No (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on I-No

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 274 on Baiken (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on Baiken

Raei, c.S-5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 209 on Robot (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on Robot

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66-5K-2S-jD-Bomber, Rensen-2 241 on Ky (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on Ky

Raei, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Bomber, jHD-Bomber, Rensen-2 253 on May (Hard knockdown just out of the corner) Works on May

Edited by Digital Watches

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Some thoughts on 5H-6H: it seems very good after a confirmed 2H starter. Some stuff I've gotten to work:

(On Bridget) 2H-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66, 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, H Benten-Bomber Followup [220]

(On Sol) 2H-2D-Rensen (FRC), 66, 5H-6H, c.S-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu (207)

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@Silmerion: I have some thoughts on some stuff you said but I wasted a lot of time messing with those character-specific combos and I've got to go for now. We should talk some of these basic combos later.

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@Watches: Cool.

On Sol, corner: Raei S, 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen-2 [236] - I beat your score! Hah!

Edited by Silmerion

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Alright, so basically I haven't messed around with this enough to know definitively what variants are going to work differently, but I suspect that going for 3P-2H-2D as a confirm is going to overall hurt your damage if you're going for anything larger than like, BnB into Kokuu. It's more hits and most likely more GB- than something small like 5K-{c,f}.S or 5K-2D. Basically, if you know you have meter, have confirmed the 5K, and want to confirm into something bigger, and you haven't already committed to the 3P, it's more likely going to do harm than good. As for conversion into bomber loops, I haven't had problems this game, including in matches, but that's possibly because I already use more advanced technology to make sure I get loops, like j.6P-FB, Airdash Bomber, and sj.D-Kokuu-6FRC6-bomber (For when you're already pretty close to the corner). It may be that to get that conversion, learning that stuff will become more important than in AC, where Kokuu was a lot more reliable as a confirm and extender and bomber gave more leeway.

Anyway, point is: There's going to be a break point where doing that long-ass confirm is going to seriously hurt your damage. I know I am getting way more than 160-ish on my midscreen combos, so that may be why that is. Also: Grats on getting that Sol variant to work, I tried that and couldn't get the rensen followup to be untechable.

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Hard to argue with you there!

Some meterless confirms off of grounded CH5H:

(Basically flush against the opponent)

CH5H, 66, 5H-6H, 5K-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu [219] (The "Johnny is fat" version)

CH5H, 66, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Kokuu [220] (Works on everyone but Johnny)

CH5H, 66, 5H-6H, 2S-6K(1)-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu [245] (Works on Sol, Ky, HOS, Axl, Zappa, Chipp [309 damage, lol], Dizzy, Anji, A.B.A, Robo-Ky, Eddie, Testament, Venom, Potemkin, I-No)

(Further away)

CH5H, 66, 5K-5P-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu [172] (The "Johnny is fat" version)

CH5H, (66 if necessary,) 6K-2S-sj.HD-Kokuu [185] (Works on everyone but Johnny)

Edited by Silmerion

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So after dinking around in training mode more, I've decided I wasn't entirely wrong before. I think that if you confirm 5K-3P, you should absolutely go for a simple knockdown combo, because you're just not going to get a lot of damage out of working harder. If your chain is something shorter, though - say, c.S-5H-2D or 2K-2D - running up and doing 5H-6H into an air combo is a great way to get extra damage.

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Messing with a few situational bomber (FRC) 5H-6H combos into the corner. It'll almost certainly work a lot of times you won't be able to confirm off the bomber otherwise. More testing necessary.

One setup is IAD j.HD Bomber (FRC) 5H-6H-2S. Confirming the fuzzy guard often leads to supoptimal damage because you have to throw 5K to keep the combo going since they're launched so low but you're still so high up. You can land the 5H without the FRC if you do it super low, but this will make the combo more consistent, and it's much more damage than doing the safer 5K confirm, so I think it's often going to be worth the 25% meter.

Edited by Digital Watches

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Ugh this is so hard. H counterhit, 66 5H, 6H, 2S will connect on everyone, but the timing is really tight. Goes into everything meterless, carries from matchstart position to corner for a bloop that does about 260 on sol. I'm too hungry to doublecheck the exact combo I did. A more practical confirm is just 66 c.S-TK FB Bomber, which has much the same carry and followup potential, but costs 25% meter and does about 30 to 40 less damage on average.

Edited by Digital Watches

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been messing around with 6H, 236S FRC into corner loops a little.. trying to maximize char specific combos.

what I got so far (might be able to be optimized further??)

(all combos listed end in knockdown)

Dizzy:

6H, 236S FRC jHD>Bomber, jD>Bomber x3 - 233 damage

6H 236S FRC jHD>Bomber, jD>Bomber, dash 2S jc jD>Bomber, [4]6S~2 - 235 damage

yes, sadly, the easier and less hype looking route actually does more damage (by a whopping 2 points!) but, always remember -the stylish combo hurts them in real life, too.

Chipp:

6H, 236SFRC, jHD>bomber, jD>bomber, TK bomber, [4]6S~2 - 252 damage

Kliff:

6H, 236S FRC, jHD>bomberx2, VERY slight dash, jHD>bomber, [4]6S~2 - 216 damage

6H, 236S FRC, jHD>bomberx2, dash 2S jD bomber [4]6S~2 - 213 damage < more consist, close in damage, less stylish

Anji:

6H, 236S FRC, jHD>bomber x2, VERY slight dash, jHD>bomber, [4]6S~2 -216 damage

6H,236S FRC, jHD>bomber, jHD>bomber, dash 2S jc jD>bomber - 213 damage

May:

6H, 236S FRC, jHD>bomber x2, VERY slight dash, jHD>bomber, [4]6S~2 -217 damage

6H, 236S FRC, j.D> bomber, jHD> bomber, dash 2S jc jD>bomber, [4]6S~2 - 214 damage

Jam:

6H, 236S FRC, jHD> bomber, jD> bomber, dash 2S jc jK>bomber, [4]6S~2 - 210 damage

Johnny

6H, 623S FRC, dash c.S jc jHD>bomberx2, dash 2S jc jD>bomber, [4]6S~2 - 208 damage

Axl:

6H, 623S FRC, jD>bomber x3, dash 2S jD>bomber [4]6S~2 - 209 damage

really tough to land, you can do j.D>bomber x2 for only slightly less damage, though

Sol:

6H, 623S FRC, jD>bomber x2, dash 2S jc jD (very slight dash may be necessary) 5H> 623P < [4]6S~2 feels hella inconsistent on Sol

Millia:

6H, 623S FRC, jHD>bomber, jD>bomber, dash 2S jc jD>bomber [4]6~2 - 241 damage

6H, 623S FRC, dash c.S jc jD>bomber, jD>bomber, dash 2S jc jD>bomber - 236 damage

second route is more consistent for slightly less damage

Slayer:

6H, 623S FRC, jHD>bomber x3 [4]6~2 - 197 damage

Zappa:

6H, 623S FRC, jHD>bomber x2, dash 2S jc jD>bomber [4]6~2 - 206 damage

Eddie:

6H, 623S FRC, dash cS jc jD> bomber, tk bomber, (dash) 2S jc jD> bomber, [4]6S~2 - 200 damage

Testament

6H, 623S FRC, jHD> bomber, (dash) 2S jc jD> bomber x2, [4]6S~2 - 204 damage

*and yeah, I am aware that some charas share the same routes, and when I'm sure these are all optimal, I'll probably re-do the post in the opposite order, with the varying routes and who they work on

** any combo part where (dash) << is written in parenthesis, implies that it may or may not be needed

***also note that the combo part [236S FRC, jH] is an OS burst grab if you hold 4 during the initial jH ^_^

Edited by bbq sauce

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Those are cool! I am probably getting my PS3 back tonight, but until I can test stuff, I'm wondering if you can get 623S off of 6H without it being particularly meaty this game. I wouldn't be surprised, given the changes to both.

As far as optimizing damage, I would bet that (given what I know about how Axl gets damage this version) you can get more off of that by doing 5H-6H, link to something off the 623S FRC (If 5H will connect. I suspect it will, but can't test until I have training mode in front of me.) You'll end up with fewer bomber loop reps, but those scale so heavily now that you will most likely get better damage that way. I'll test it to make sure later tonight, and post some variants if I find something higher-damage (Feel free to do so as well if you get to it before I do)

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First test, pre-optimization:

Dizzy: 6H, 623S FRC, 5H-6H, 2S, sj.D-Bomber, j.HD-Bomber, Rensen-2 244 w/ knockdown

I think with some tweaking, this is going to be a lot more damage, especially against certain characters. Learn that link!

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Okay, here are some more combos along those lines, I'm not going to figure out what's optimal on every character tonight, but this should help with the science a bit.

Axl 6H, 623S FRC, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Bomber, sj.HD-Bomber, Rensen-2 229 w/ knockdown

Chipp 6H, c.S-5H, Rensen FRC 66 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen, 2 280 w/ knockdown

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Here's a stylin' empire-combo thing: Air hit 5H combos into 623P. So you can do e.g.

Zappa: From the corner: c.S-5H-Rensen FRC 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66 5H-623P (KD, 217 damage)

Slayer: From midstage: c.S-5H-Rensen FRC, 66 5H-623P-421D, sj.HD-Kokuu 6FRC623H, Rensen-2 (KD, 190 damage)

Edited by Digital Watches

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Not a combo but character-range specific unblock setup.

Zappa: 5K, c.S, 2H, 2D, rensen frc ===> rashousen as late as possible (133+75 dmg not in the corner)

It also works from raw Axl Bomber and I wanna find another way to implement this stuff.

It also should work vs Venom and Kliff if their wake-up frames are not changed

EDIT. Works vs: Zappa, Venom, May, I-no, Ky, Potemkin, Faust*.

Work slightly better with: rensen frc backdash ===> rashou

Works vs: Sol, Millia, Eddie, Baiken, Johnny*, Dizzy*, Robo-Ky, Order-Sol*

* hard

Also works from throw.

Throw rensen frc rashou does 71+77 on Ky which is better than: throw, dash 5P, 2S, j.D, j.623D, ad j.D, j.623H, land 2S, j.D, j.623H, land rensen tap2 - 146

Edited by Horokei

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Notably: I've seen japanese players go for Rensen FRC Rashou in a blockstring, and it seems to be a raw pseudo-guaranteed (In that probably in theory someone with a frame 1 invincible super or DP could get out if their timing was perfect) setup. I've even seen a match or two where they literally blow 50% meter getting it twice off the oki from the first rashou KD. It's a good 140-ish damage you can get at the end of a high-guts character's lifebar pretty easily from a blockstring, and like all rashou setups, hitting with the rashou has the added benefit of making them FEAR it more later.

You can probably also do air blockstring->Bomber (A false gap that's not that easy to do anything about if you're not throwing it out predictably) FRC rashou, which I suspect is also close to unescapable (IIRC A low bomber FRC should put you at ~+25. Still confirming whether it still does the same blockstun it did in AC, since the frame data is annoyingly missing that information)

Edited by Digital Watches

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Perfect Axl Bomber with frc is around +17 if framedata is not wrong.

Rensen frc rashou as blocksting is pretty much unchanged (even better cuz rashou is faster now) from vanilla AC. Probably better to use this setup from lvl5 moves like 5H so Axl cancel 5H into rensen on first frames of hitstop and immediatly charge for rashousen.

Back to unblock setups from combos. It's possible to end midscreen combo into Axl Bomber with knockdown on heavy characters like Potemkin and setup rashousen.

5K, 2H, 2D, rensen frc, dash 2S, j.D, Bomber ===> rashou (144+65 damage). Looks cool but too situative and unreliable cuz it's like corner to corner combo.

To escape this setup opponents can try backdash (if thay got good one) and DP/overdrives/superguard moves but range is too big so Axl cannot be punished anyway (unless thay got fast invulnerable move like Slayer BDC DoT, those setups are not working on Slayer anyway)

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Unfortunately, with the mook being outdated and all the issues that have already been seen, I don't necessarily think the frame data is accurate. In AC frame data, level 6 (i.e. "unusual amount of stun") moves were listed as level 5. Has Axl Bomber been changed to be a normal lv 5 move? Anyway, these damage figures are basically telling me to do real combos instead of dropping them early to go for oki rashou setups. Even with perfect timing, you're taking a risk that they can reversal out for less reward than just doing a better combo from the same confirm and finishing it. 5K-c.S-5H Rensen FRC run 5H-6H, 2S will be a better confirm from 5K every time.

Edited by Digital Watches

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Okay, here are some more combos along those lines, I'm not going to figure out what's optimal on every character tonight, but this should help with the science a bit.

Axl 6H, 623S FRC, 5H-6H, 2S-sj.HD-Bomber, sj.HD-Bomber, Rensen-2 229 w/ knockdown

Chipp 6H, c.S-5H, Rensen FRC 66 5H-6H, 2S-j.D-Bomber, 66 2S-j.D-Bomber, Rensen, 2 280 w/ knockdown

Is the link from 623S frc to 5H char specific or just reallyyy tight? I couldn't land that on -anyone-

I'm probably just ass

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