[+R] Order-Sol General Discussion

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Thread for General Discussion regarding Order-Sol in GGXXAC+R. Feel free to talk about anything gameplay related. Take any specific questions to the Q&A thread.

[Brandinoli]

Any HOS would have any idea on how the Justice vs. HOS MU would play out. I can't say I've seen it played out.

[iora]

i imagine fafnir and rock it from mid range are your better ways to get in, and it would be easy to stay in

but i seen like 1 match of the MU lol

[Sesshyru]

Something else I have learned:

Dizzies buttons are sooooooooooooooo good. I couldn't really rush her down because the tail whip (2 slash or something) is quite good...

I was fighting a Baiken and I noticed that the far-slash -> j.d doesn't work for her jump-behind-you alpha counter.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

Any HOS would have any idea on how the Justice vs. HOS MU would play out. I can't say I've seen it played out.

I've played Justice vs HOS a bit from the Justice side. It takes a lot of patience for HOS, but overall it feels about even. There's definitely some things to note, though.

I'd recommend charging to full as early as possible. If you wait till there are already missiles all over you, you won't get much opportunity. If you start charging at the same time as Justice starts firing missiles, you can get a full charge pretty much for free, because missiles take a while to cross the screen. Also, if you try to charge after she has 50% bar, she can punish you with Super Michael Blade (Might be able to charge burst out of that? The person I was playing didn't, but that doesn't mean it's impossible). After that, it's a matter of getting through the maze and then making her pay really hard when you do get in.

There's definitely no simple answer for how to get through missiles. Justice has to adapt her patterns to what you're doing, so you can't be predictable in your approach. If you block a missile in the air within Justice's f.S range, don't forget to green block. That f.S will eat a lot of your tension, so try at avoid this situation. If you block Michael Blade, don't try to run in immediately after, Justice can easily just Michael Blade again to stop that. Watch out for her throw range, it's extremely large. Also, do not burst the 6H after she throws you- it auto burst baits if she does it right. Reversal wise, she has a low-invincible dp that's pretty easy to beat, a Potemkin-level backdash, and a decent reversal super. The super should be easy to safe jump, and that'll also beat the dp. If you can react to the backdash afterwards, then you're good.

[GreasyGyro718]

^^^ sounds right. another thing is your f.s is extremely good in this matchup, abuse it. if she 5p's you or 6p's you it's bad news but it's ok, you shouldnt be predictable with it. (I think she can get something off 5p.)

[Rigel Cyrosea]

^^^ sounds right. another thing is your f.s is extremely good in this matchup, abuse it. if she 5p's you or 6p's you it's bad news but it's ok, you shouldnt be predictable with it. (I think she can get something off 5p.)

Yeah, either of those will go into normals -> Michael Blade. The damage won't be horrible but it does push you full screen again and give her time to get more missiles out.

[Brandinoli]

How fast is Michael Blade on startup? I saw a video of Inoue playing a Justice and he was able to stuff it whenever he had lvl.2 / 3 RI and he was able to whiff punish it on recovery to.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Are you guys talking about Michael Blade, or Michael Sword? Michael Blade is the super IIRC.

[Brandinoli]

I guess the non-super version? I thought they were one and the same. Pretty sure against the super version HOS has to just sit back and just respect it.

[AMB Bakery]

S Michael Sword has a decently short recovery but I can see it being whiff-punished. I can also see it being stuffed by rock-it just because of how far it extends Justice's hitbox. Tested it just now, if you're just inside its range, lvl 2 or lvl 3 rock-it will beat it. If you're any further, you're probably going to get a trade, which ends up in Justice's favor just because of how long you slide from getting CH'd. The super one definitely has a way faster start-up, feels like 5f about. If whatever you're doing has less than that recovery, you can definitely reaction block in time, but outside of that you can get counter hit. Even during whiffed j.P, I held FD and it didn't come out in time (also, yes, the super is air-unblockable).

Another note because I also tested it just now: Justice is somewhat funky to dustloop midscreen, but not really. Just time the double jump really late and you'll be fine, Justice hitbox is giant and j.D float lasts an eternity.

[Sesshyru]

Any HOS would have any idea on how the Justice vs. HOS MU would play out. I can't say I've seen it played out.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Something I had noticed but not verified going from vanilla AC to +R is that 6P's properties on block had changed somewhat. It appears that 6P now pushes Order-Sol away after being blocked, which it did not do in the previous version. I personally tested this last night by switching between the versions in order to verify it. It seems as if 6P was considered a projectile in vanilla AC, which would explain both its ability to nullify other projectiles and the fact that Order-Sol did not get pushed away on block (this also made its frame advantage much more useful since you could stay close during resets). Now it has been changed to a physical attack, so it is affected by pushback on block. This makes it significantly weaker as a pressure tool, in spite of the fact that the reward on hit seems much better in +R. It would also explain why I never see it used in match play anymore by high level players.

[iora]

don't you stay in range of f.s/2s/bhb/5h/fafnir though, and its plus isnt it?

seems like it will still have uses, and i like the new on-hit effect too much to stop using it.

maybe itll just be a another hos player style choice, as if we didnt have enough of those already haha.

[Brandinoli]

don't you stay in range of f.s/2s/bhb/5h/fafnir though, and its plus isnt it?

seems like it will still have uses, and i like the new on-hit effect too much to stop using it.

maybe itll just be a another hos player style choice, as if we didnt have enough of those already haha.

It's still plus and it nullifies projectiles, but with the increased pushback it is harder to keep momentum going when you use it. IMO it's still worth tossing out once in a while for anti-mashing since the reward is so high once you have 25 meter and link a fafnir.

[iora]

well if you were gonna bhb1 ac frc anyway in your pressure, then 6p pushback doesnt matter as much, since you have time to dash after the frc.

[Brandinoli]

well if you were gonna bhb1 ac frc anyway in your pressure, then 6p pushback doesnt matter as much, since you have time to dash after the frc.

Problem with that lvl.1 BHB AC FRC doesn't have a lot of frame advantage, if any. More times than not I found myself getting punished for trying to get back in and if they decide to IB it and I'm point blank I'M getting thrown. At least with how 6P was in AC+ you were still in their face so you can stuff any throw attempt with 6K or mash with 5K.

In +R your 6P pressure options is more limited with the increase pushback and if they FD 6P then they can get out for free.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

lvl 1 BHB AC FRC frame advantage is +7 max, this is with perfect execution. You can buffer dash into your FRC to make the pressure tighter, but at far ranges people are gonna jump out. You always have options in these situations, since it's Order-Sol, but you don't have the guaranteed lockdowns without high charge and/or meter.

6P is +2. That's not a lot of frame advantage, and with the pushback on block, you are basically being reset to neutral. I like it on oki against characters with strong reversals (Sol), but otherwise, I've pretty much stopped using it.

[iora]

hmm alright

im still all theory no practice... fucking xbox.

[sammy5m1th]

I've been playing this game casually for a while now and recently decided to try actually learning how this game works. I largely avoided playing HoS because, in addition to looking really cool, he seemed like a needlessly complicated version of Sol. Then I got curious again after I saw some charts that all say HoS has the better match ups of the two. GG seems like a pretty well rounded game so I have to imagine that HoS isn't supposed to be leaps and bounds better, but after watching some of the mikado videos, reading through the wiki, and playing him in casuals I guess I'm just not seeing what those tier lists are seeing.

HoS' damage seems largely comparable to Sol's but it also seems more complicated to get into. Without meter Sol at least has access to wild throw, gun flame, and 6P in the corner. HoS doesn't seem to have very good ways of getting his targets into the air without counter hits or charge, so he has to settle for either sacrificing his mixups post sweep to get charge or sacrifice his charge for the mixup which is a choice Sol doesn't need to make. HoS' combos also seem to just kind of end unless you're sitting on level 2 charge, and even then he just gets a knockdown for about the same damage and situation Sol would have gotten ending one of his main combos with ground bandit revolver. HoS' ground throw gives him about the same effect as Sol's, as does his air throw, but Sol's Wild throw means the threat of a high damage combo post throw is everywhere on screen vs. only in the corner. While they're both sitting on meter/charge they seem to have pretty even damage potential. Outside of cqc and combos though regular Sol seems superior.

Both have about the same mobility, but Sol has access to Grand Viper to low profile, a vastly superior DP which doubles as a combo starter with meter, Gun Flame which can cover his approach when FRC'd, and farther reaching pokes that can convert into Fafnir to stagger and hold his opponent down so he can move in. HoS' Rock It seems good for chasing since its largely neutral on block and Fafnir seems pretty good for ranged combat too; he can't really get a follow up without already sitting on them but I suppose the knockdown is the important part in ranged situations. Sol also looks like he has an easier time sniping out jumps since his 5K is as fast as HoS' and also goes up farther but beyond that they seem largely even there, although Sol's FB Side Winder seems like it would give him better conversions.

So from what I can tell Sol seems better at defense, at range, in meter-less damage, and in converting damage without the corner. Both Sol's seem even in damage with meter, but HoS needs to burn through a lot of meter in order to get the hard knockdowns and has to choose between mixup or charge post knockdown. Neither seems to have too much of an advantage over the other in terms of resets post combo from what I can tell. I know HoS' low jump makes his pressure stronger, but it seems like he gives up a lot for just that one thing. So am I under-estimating the power of HoS with meter? Is it his meter fueled over heads, his pressure from FRC'd action charges, his double jump fuzzy guard set up, or the cross up GB that give HoS the edge? I understand that he has a kind of late bloomer offense that really gets going when he gets the momentum, but a lot of characters get their offense off of the first knockdown without the extra complication of charge levels. It also seems like a good chunk of the cast is pretty mix up or lock down based (Dizzy and Millia for instance) and it doesn't look like HoS has great tools to deal with their offense. So it seems odd to me that the two Sols would be considered either even in those types of match ups, or that HoS would have the advantage.

As far as I know these tiers and charts are made by the Japanese GG scene, and from what I can tell they seem like they know what they're doing so I'm sure I'm missing something. Maybe I'm thinking you build meter in this game slower than you actually do, maybe I'm under-estimating the bare bones tools of blocking and dead angle, or maybe I just don't understand this game and defense is a wasted effort (I know that's not HoS' goal, but he's bound to end up on D eventually). So to all of you people that play HoS, what gives him his edge over Sol?

I guess it's also possible that I'm taking those tiers and charts way too seriously and that people pick HoS solely because they like his style or think he looks cool, because that's definitely the reason i want to play as him.

*edit* Wow, that was way longer than I thought it was, sorry about that.

Edited October 17, 2013 by sammy5m1th

[iora]

i play him entirely for fafnir, his jump arc, and the fact he has extra resources to manage. the rest is just a bonus.

take that for what you will lol.

[excelence]

Fafnir, j.H & Dustloop ... easier to play at lower skill level since i can just freestyle lot's of thing, while when playing Sol i feel more limited with flame carpet pressure & setting Wild grab Setup.

[nnecron]

Sol is more popular than Order Sol. HOS is higher on the tier list mostly because of much slower charge meter depletion and superior supers (especially lvl.2s). lvl.2 BHB now blows your enemy across the screen to abide time for full charge and at the corner causes a wallstick that is long enough to action charge and do the usual dustloop for guaranteed knockdown, and lvl.2&3 RI is as fast as Slayer's Pile Bunker. More minor editions are the various new properties that has added to his moves, which opened up new combos and possibly increased his average damage output especially when you consider how long he can maintain higher levels. His J.S now crosses up, so when combined with the fuzzy guard setup Order Sol is even more capable of unpredictable Oki game.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

This is a pretty common way to look at the two characters, but I think by now it's pretty obvious that HOS is the better character. They were closer in regular AC, but in +R it's much more clear cut.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to say regular Sol is a bad character. He's pretty decent.

The problem I'm seeing here is a very superficial analysis of the characters and their options. On the surface, Sol definitely seems better, what with having easier to understand options that give quick results in terms of damage. But Sol's problem is that he's too straightfoward, and he becomes predictable after a while. This wouldn't be a problem, except that unless Sol has meter to FRC a Gun Flame, you really only have to guess right once on his mixup to get out, and often if you do guess right, you not only get out, but you get to punish him. He's very limited and one-dimensional, in a sense. If my blocking is on point, I know you'll want to command grab at some point, and all I have to do is guess that right and I get to take control of the match. Sol does well in situations where the opponent is impatient and you have the opportunity to hit your buttons first, but a good defensive opponent makes his life very hard.

HOS's offense is much more layered, in a sense. Often his mixups are just the beginning of another series meant to trick you or otherwise put you off guard, and even if you do guess right on his offense, the vast majority of the time he is either completely safe or still at an advantage. This makes his offense much more potent than normal Sol's, even though there is a damage disparity sometimes (Charge mostly makes up for this, and high level HOS will always have enough Charge). But the big difference to me is all the buffs that HOS got in +R. The various buffs to level 2 moves, the improved Charge gauge, all do a lot for him. Level 2 Rock It alone is a massive improvement and is borderline abusable. His damage is not only very good, but he now has easy combos in the corner that do good damage and put him in the perfect position to keep attacking. The best example can be seen if you watch kazunoko play HOS, he has that character down to a science.

I could break down everything point by point, but I figured it was more important to try and get to the core of the issue. If you'd like, I can do a more in depth post later.

[sammy5m1th]

I'd love to hear a full break down personally, but I could certainly understand if you didn't want to do that. I did note after I posted that reliance on Wild Throw to open people up could be an issue since a good jump would punish it hard. Throw breaking in this game seems pretty tough too, so I suppose that would make HoS' throw attempts much scarier. I have a pretty basic understanding of regular Sol and I can definitely feel my "casual play" habits with him catching up to me, so I'll be trying HoS for a bit longer to see if I can understand what makes him tick and properly learn the game while I'm at it. Anyway, thanks for the feedback, this has all been very informative. Heck even going back and reading my own post seems to answer a few of my questions.

Edited October 18, 2013 by sammy5m1th