AC: General Discussion

[Sundown]

^^^^ Holy shit, how big is that thing??? Of course it changes a hell of a lot man, that thing has the most deceiving range ever WTF... Suddenly a KD in the corner -> fish -> bubble -> air spike pattern just became way, way more scary.

[StDF]

Nice Does anyone know if her P fish 3x bite still there? i don't understand the fishchanges.. Can she do a 4x bite for example?

[Sundown]

^^^^ Her fish still work pretty much the same (except for HS fish which now travels forward way more and takes a bit longer to activate), the difference is that she can now switch the fish on the fly. For example dizzy can do a P fish which will still bite 3 times, and then before the fish going away she can switch it to HS fish so the fish, instead of dissapearing will shoot out the laser. We still dont know if u do it by negative edging the 2nd fish or by doing another fish motion.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

What the.... :amazed: yay to FB bubble hit box enormasness! also fish changes make dizzy sound more fun

[CrimsonDisaster]

I will try to test Dizzy things for people tomorrow since a friend of mine wants to hit PZ but someone needs to give me a dollar because I'm sure it will feel like a waste of money playing such a stupid game ;(

[CrimsonDisaster]

I know it is way tooooo early for tier lists to be reliable, but in almost all of them Dizzy appears to b in either B tier or A- tier, which means an upgrade in Dizzy from where she was in Slash-

What do you guys think is responsible for this so-called upgrade? I mean we all know how HS fish got raped as an oki tool, and obviously the japanese making this lists know so too, so why are they listing her up there?

Is it because of her new HOLY-SHIT-GATLING gatlings? or her switch-fish-on-the-fly ability? or 2D JCing?, what is it in your opinion?

It's because people were having trouble figuring out a way around homing bubbles for a week. I'm expecting her to drop off very soon (like once people stop just spamming FBs and stuff and start figuring out the nuances of the stupid new systems like Slash Back).

Don't forget that Dizzy was practically S tier during the first few weeks after Slash was released, and look how that turned out.

[Starfire]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm just looking at the latest Popeye Axl vs. Dizzy match, and at 0:34 Dizzy does what appears to be 2D cancelled into Ice Spike, without tension! I looked at the japanese GGXX wiki, and with my poor japanese skills was able to piece out that it has something to do with the jump cancel (the japanese called it "jump cancel cancel"). Apparently you can jump cancel the 2D and then cancel the jump into a special, Slayer BDC style. With 2D's shortened range, it won't be as good as #R, but it's definitely a nice improvement.

[Nehle]

Okay, this is absolutely HUGE news for Dizzy, we are back to the once again insane safety of the 2D poke of #Reload. Since 2D is so easily hit confirmable, it's easy to just cancel to a fish on block, or ice spike on hit. Seriously, 2D seems even better than the #R version, I'm willing to trade shorter reach and no FRC for this.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I wouldn't, what with the way fish work (they still disappear if you're hit in recovery) and the fact that there's really one range where it'd be useful (right at the range where you get 2K > f.S instead of 2K > c.S but just outside of 2K > 6P range) since you could combo 2K > c.S > H XX icespike instead for more damage and it's still punishable even if you summon a fish (moreso than in #R because you're going to be like right next to them). And that's not even mentioning what horrors will happen when people IB and/or Slash Back against the 2D (though you get a ghetto "mixup" by doing icespike or FIRE if you expect a Slash Back)

[Jet Set Dizzy]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm just looking at the latest Popeye Axl vs. Dizzy match, and at 0:34 Dizzy does what appears to be 2D cancelled into Ice Spike, without tension!

I looked at the japanese GGXX wiki, and with my poor japanese skills was able to piece out that it has something to do with the jump cancel (the japanese called it "jump cancel cancel"). Apparently you can jump cancel the 2D and then cancel the jump into a special, Slayer BDC style.

With 2D's shortened range, it won't be as good as #R, but it's definitely a nice improvement.

wait you JC then cancel jump into a "STANDING" move? :drool:

is this what i'm hearing or am i mistakin?

[CrimsonDisaster]

That is what you are hearing. This is a fairly common thing, really, just there weren't many moves that were JCable but not special cancellable so unless you played Johnny or Venom or something, it wasn't that big a deal. Order Sol's lvl3 Rock It is another example of a JCable, non-special-cancellable move that you can cancel into special moves by TKing said moves to JC into a ground special. Probably the ONLY other example at the moment ;(

[Jet Set Dizzy]

is dizzy's 6h special cancleable?

[CrimsonDisaster]

yes

[Nehle]

I wouldn't, what with the way fish work (they still disappear if you're hit in recovery) and the fact that there's really one range where it'd be useful (right at the range where you get 2K > f.S instead of 2K > c.S but just outside of 2K > 6P range) since you could combo 2K > c.S > H XX icespike instead for more damage and it's still punishable even if you summon a fish (moreso than in #R because you're going to be like right next to them).

And that's not even mentioning what horrors will happen when people IB and/or Slash Back against the 2D (though you get a ghetto "mixup" by doing icespike or FIRE if you expect a Slash Back)

What? Are we talking about the same move here? For poking purposes, 2D has way more reach than 2K, so it's useful everywhere past 2K's range (note that I'm talking about 2D as a poke not some gatling/combo starter). I'm not going to be "right next to them" by a long shot. 2D still reaches as far as the hand, as opposed to the shockwave in #R/Slash - that's still very far.

As for the fish disappearing if hit on recovery: not true. The fish only disappears if you are hitting Dizzy while she is in the summoning stance, not if she's recovering from it.

So what if they IB? 2D is level 5 move, that means that they still take 14f to recover, since they're crouching. Enough time to summon anyways

And slashback? That's not a very good idea that far away, since even if you manage to do the SB, you still can't block (only SB) for 15f (though you can move after only two), and trying to close distance from that far away without being able to block for 13f is not a good idea, at all.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

so its a godly poke and a new way to get out fish safley....YAY :grin: im liking AC dizzy. tho she should have gotten an EX fish!

[CrimsonDisaster]

It's not "that far," really. It's well inside several character's poke range. Johnny gets a KILL YOU DEAD punish even on regular block instead of just a Jackhound like in Slash. Sol gets at least a f.S. Ky gets a f.S into Stun Dipper at the very least (if it's close enough, f.S > 2S XX Stun Dipper). etc. etc. In XX it didn't even extend all the length of Necro's arm IIRC. It's a bit on the slow side, doesn't go to the floor nearly as fast as it would need to be a good poke, and now it doesn't even have the benefit of hitting at a range where most characters can't punish it in some fashion. It has huge recovery as well and a really long CH time, I fail to see how it's a good poke now that it's lost its primary advantage (range) when it was never a good poke to begin with. The range and FRC made it an okay poke, so explain why it's so good without those things? It's not hard to hit Dizzy in the summoning animation via IB and SB, given how close you will be. It's not point blank of course, but it's certainly close enough for people to just poke you in the face, especially given how quickly they can act out of the SB. Of course Dizzy can do silly things to bait SBs (lololol 2D XX FIRE) but it's nowhere near a "safe" way to get fish out against people who know what to be looking for against Dizzy. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that she can jury-rig a special-cancellable 2D again, but I'd rather have range and the FRC. You're better off JCing into homing bubble on block anyhow ;(

[Sundown]

Yeah, thats what ur hearing, u cancel the jump with a special EDIT: Fuk im late, u guys already discussing bout it lol, fuk college

[Nehle]

Okay, I'm gonna yield on the fact that it's a safe way to get fish out since, yes, many characters will find a way to punish you if you do the same bullshit over and over. Especially fish However, I'm still going to claim that it's a good poke, because the range hasn't been decreased all that much (It still extends the full length of the arm), and it gives you tons of options to followup with. Hit and you get a free combo (granted a very weak one due to all the proration on ice spikes, but still) or cancel directly into potentially wonderful okizeme options (need more vids to analyze this). Block and you still have many ways to keep you safe without becoming predictable. And if you're not predictable, the opponent will wait to see what you do before trying to punish you for it. You also don't have to waste tension for keeping safe.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I'd rather have the FRC and the option to attack relatively safely on block. On hit it's probably best to TK homing bubble against most characters. From there you can start a decent pressure string with the threat of the bubble turning any early hit into a combo, and the blockstun from the bubble lets you get things like spears or maybe even fish out safely.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

now if only spike didn't disapear on hit we'd be somewhere... (but then i suppose you could set up free bursts whenever you wanted....)

[CrimsonDisaster]

I'd just like to reiterate that AC Dizzy is awful.

[chun_li1]

I'd just like to reiterate that AC Dizzy is awful.

I´m curious. Pls. explain (long or short version). Dont care if its personal whining, just state your opinion.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Pros: Homing bubble is awesome, new fishy tricks, jury-rigged 2D special cancel, JCable 2D, homing bubble is awesome, j2S adds damage to combos, homing bubble is awesome, homing bubble is awesome Cons: Bad sweep, pokes still suck, lazer fish is horrible, no good midscreen fish setups, most tricks aren't safe anymore, horrible pokes, sweep has no range, no way to get in safely against most characters outside of homing bubble, new tricky fish are okay but lazer fish are awful... She just feels a lot more rigid in terms of safe, effective, basic setups that feed into her pressure/mixup game; she still has trickery to be sure, just it's mostly prone to uppercuts and stuff except a few setups (bubble + pop from far out) except those don't give you multiple setups or continued mixups on block like her old setups did. She pretty much has to run away for a long time, wait for people to mess up horribly, and then guess right a bunch of times... and if anything goes wrong, run away some more. And if you get meter, homing bubble. Homing bubble rules. Shame Dizzy doesn't. Also homing bubble is awesome. I love it so much, if only Dizzy wasn't sucky.

[StDF]

I have a theory about the HS-laser fish changes. i think the fish is supposed to be more like a meat shield. Maybe it's more safe to dash after the summon. Look at the vids and see the rate of how many times the fish act like a meattank.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I have a theory about the HS-laser fish changes.

i think the fish is supposed to be more like a meat shield.

Maybe it's more safe to dash after the summon.

Look at the vids and see the rate of how many times the fish act like a meattank.

It's more of a "meatshield" at midscreen, but it places itself in a position that is almost utterly worthless in corner oki. Plus it doesn't really give you a mixup, it just gives you a random object between you and your opponent... which is nice sometimes, but it did that even better in previous versions.

I mean it's an okay dedicated "eat a hit" kind of thing for running in during a neutral situation sometimes. Not saying it's absolutely worthless. It just isn't very good for much of anything at this point- H fish extension to another fish attack is okay but not nearly as useful as the old H fish.

The next time I get to play the game, I'll see if I can mess around with her j2S more. It looks a lot bigger in AC than it did in previous games, at the very least. I don't think it's going to be ground breaking or anything, just a bit more damage in combos and another crossup tool (which will help given how H fish set seems really bad for midscreen mixups now)