[CP] Noel Vermillion - Gameplay Discussion

[Alpha152]

Good work with the combo tutorial Luna, just wanted to note something that wasn't mentioned in the video. After MF, 5B also whiffs against Izayoi.

 

In 1.0 it used to also whiff against Amane but after double checking, something was changed and it now works against him. 

[Sashi]

Speaking of dumb Taokaka hitboxes, I drop so many combos at d.236D 66C, it's embarrassing. Sometimes, I don't do the whole 6C(1) 4D d.214D thing and just do a deep dash 66C(2) 6B 22B and end it there. Feels bad, man. I dropped it like 10 times in a row in casuals last week.

 

EDIT: It's not like I don't spend time grinding it, either. Who's it hardest against? I'll just keep grinding it on them instead of on random every time.

[LunaKage]

You know what? I knew that, I must have just recorded Tager only (same way I only recorded Tsubaki for the Tsubaki and Nu part) but forgot to put the explanation for Izayoi as well.

 

Well the good thing about doing a video with multiple parts is that there's always a chance to correct it in part 2. Since I think using youtube annotations to correct mistakes looks hella tacky and dumb, so I'll just add Izayoi's 214A problem in part 2,

[BRIAN_KYO]

Good work with the combo tutorial Luna, just wanted to note something that wasn't mentioned in the video. After MF, 5B also whiffs against Izayoi.

 

In 1.0 it used to also whiff against Amane but after double checking, something was changed and it now works against him. 

 

I remember other situations on Amane, Izayoi and Tager

 

                                  Grab>214A     Air Grab>5B     Corner Grab>5B

Amane                          Hit                      Hit                    Whiff

Izayoi                            Whiff                  Whiff                  Hit

Tager                            Whiff                  Hit                      Hit

[LunarCode]

Just wondering but does double OD fenrir still work? Or is the timing just really strict/weird?  

[legacy49i]

It doesn't work. I think timing makes it impossible, but it doesn't matter, because the initial gun barrel hit creates a larger gap between you and you opponent. There's now too much space for the 2nd Fenrir to hit.

[Sashi]

You can do Thor into Fenrir for hella less damage, though. :v

[LunarCode]

thanks guys 

[legacy49i]

I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed before, but I noticed it in Training Mode, so I'm gonna lay it down here:

 

If you down an opponent via Muzzle Flitter or an air throw, then delay a split second, then 6D, you will cross-under on neutral tech.  The combo potential of this isn't super awesome, and it doesn't do anything for you on either forward or backward roll, but I found it kinda interesting.  Also, if you do Muzzle Flitter on Tager, omit the delay and just 6D immediately due to the height difference.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, if you've got someone who just like to lay there, that delay + 6D will probably give you that reset for free. 

 

I was gonna take a video, but it's kinda a pain in the ass to set it up.  But suffice it to say, you can cross-under on the 6D, then 6B and you'll catch them with an overhead, then just go into your favorite combo.

[LunaKage]

That's cool and all, but why would you ever wanna use it? Air Throws are combo starters, and Muzzle Filter is always used early in the combo. If you were to go for a reset you're sacrificing on average 2k extra damage, sometimes even 3k that you left out for cutting the combo short.

[GreeniX]

To do this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BZ7IJOjeQA&feature=player_detailpage#t=564 Combo wasn't going to kill, and doing this made the burst really obvious so it got baited.

 

One other reason I've used this reset sometimes was to maintain corner positioning. I have the opponent near the corner and I bait an antiair with jD, netting a CH into d.6C 214A, which I did because it's the shit and because I couldn't confirm what side I was going to land on. Now I'm in the corner and can do an extra 2k(?) while resetting to midscreen positions... but I prefer going for the crossunder 6D (whiff) d.6B d.5C d.6D d.236D into stuff. It usually works the first time you do it, so I see it as a worthy gimmick to have up one's sleeve.

 

(if you know a combo to sideswitch without jD SMP kicking in, do tell~)

[LunaKage]

Well burst baiting after those situations is always an option, but that's intentional, and there's a defined point. Using that setup just for another mixup isn't optimal, considering you get decent options after standard 22B oki to begin with.

 

And yes I do happen to have a good combo for you in that situation, the only character it doesn't work on is Tager:

 

CH j.D > 214A > 2B > 6C > 4D > Delay 214D > 66 > 2B > 6C > 5D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22B, or instead of 22B go into 6D > Fenrir.

 

Does almost 4k meterless. It used to do 4.2 meterless until they nerfed P1 on all Jumping moves.

[neojammerzx]

This may be a bit old but...during a 22~B corner ender, we can opt to do 6D (or 5D) > d.5A > *options* { high (d.6B), low(d.6D), bait DP(d.4D) } ...

 

So normally, we can get poked out by a 2A just when the animation of d.5A happens right? -- it happens to me on all three options after d.5A (the high, low and bait DP) therefore, is d.2D after d.5A the only option we have for someone who mashes 2A?

 

What other techs and gimmicks do you suggest to use to keep pressure in the corner? Specially vs a char with DP.

[legacy49i]

d.6B has a long startup, and that's why you get poked.  4D and 6D also have long startups and no invul to low hits.

 

You could always keep Drive pressure with faster hits, although the faster hits are mids and won't grant you any mixup.  You could try d.5B with A Drives and then end with Bloom Trigger for a large pushback and reset to neutral.

 

Your d.6B and 6D are where your risk/reward lie.  You just need to decide when you think your opponent will get hit by it.  If you keep getting poked out of Drive, you need to re-train your opponent.  Maybe a slight delay -> Spring Raid (While holding 50 Heat to be safe).  If you can beat their pokes, they'll learn to quit A mashing (If they're smart).

[LunaKage]

Yeah this is old, I've discussed this several different times, but hell, this is why I'm here :3

 

These are your options:

 

Overhead:

5D(whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > d.6B

 

Low:

5D(Whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > d.6D

 

To Catch all rolls:

5D > d.5A/d.6A > d.6B

 

To bait DPs:

5D(whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > d.4D

 

To bait Makoto's DP:

5D(Whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > d.4D(whiff) > DELAY d.2D (CH) > d.6C > 214A

 

To Bait Azrael's DP:

5D(Whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > Reload > 66C (CH) > 214A

 

To bait Tager command grabs:

5D(whiff) > d.5A(Whiff) > d.2D (CH) > d.6C > 214A

 

To beat people mashing buttons or trying to jump out:

5D(whiff) > d.6A > d.6B

 

from those situations, just make sure you convert it into the rest of the combo, and you'll be back in the 22B oki situation. On DPs that put your opponent in the air, confirm with d.4D > d.2D > d.6B > 236D and continue the combo, on DPs that leave your opponent on the ground, confirm with d.4D (CH) > d.6C > 214A etc.

[neojammerzx]

Thanks for the info. What do you usually do when you don't know the habits of the guy? Let's say you assume that he has good noel exp -- cos from this, my initial thought is to 5D > d.6A to catch mashers, jump outs, rolls and if in case blocked, you can still end safely. Right?

[LunaKage]

Yeah, use the anti-mash, and you can shit into mixup from that. Then go from there.

[neojammerzx]

Got it thanks

[Fujiwara]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_XGHjOy7s4&feature=youtu.be

so I did this today

felt good

[legacy49i]

OH SHIT!!! YOU DIDN'T GET CAUGHT!!!

That's awesome! Now if they'd just remove Kokonoe's invul, or at least shorten it, then it'd be all good.

That's the best thing I've seen all day.

[Fujiwara]

just punish it with 5c and kill the bitch after this. I don't know any real noel combos, so I couldn't push her shit in in one go.

[Sashi]

It's okay, CH 5C 214A does like 3k by itself.

[legacy49i]

Nah.  Does like 2.5k. 

 

While we're on the topic, could someone please explain to me why some moves do MORE damage following a 5C than they would just on their own?  It only works with certain moves.  Fenrir and Muzzle Flitter for sure.

 

Fenrir does 2487 by itself.  5C - Fenrir does 3375, which breaks down to 5C doing 680 and Fenrir doing 2695.

 

Muzzle Flitter does 1600 by itself.  5C - Muzzle Flitter does 2520, which breaks down to 5C doing 680 and Muzzle Flitter doing 1840.

 

Also, when you do 5C - Muzzle Flitter - stuff, it doesn't affect the damage scaling compared to just doing 5C - stuff.  Like the Muzzle Flitter is just free, unprorated damage.  But it only works like that when you do 5C - Muzzle Flitter, and not anything else - Muzzle Flitter.

 

i.e.:

 

5C - Fenrir = 3375

5C - MF = 2520

5C - MF - Fenrir = 5215

 

680 + 2695 = 3375

680+ 1840 = 2520

680 + 1840 + 2695 = 5215

 

Fenrir does the EXACT same damage, and it doesn't matter if the Muzzle Flitter is there or not.
 

Edit:  I just read the wiki for calculating combo damage.  Seems that each successive move will drop damage by the percentage of the 1st move's P1, all the following move's P2s, and the character combo rate.  5C has a P1 of 100%, and Muzzle Flitter has a P2 of 100%, HOWEVER, Noel's combo rate is 80%, which means there should still be a 20% loss in damage on the next move, and it still doesn't explain the INCREASED damage on the move following 5C!

[Ayane]

Pretty much magic.

 

Other than that it probably has something to do with 5C CH giving bonus proration and combo time.

 

Also you didn't know about the glitch with Kokos BH and Gaurd point? Bananaken figured it out on day 1 of the patch lol. It only works with OD BH and any move with frame 1 GP will beat it.

[legacy49i]

So that only works when Kokonoe is in Overdrive?