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zeth07

[CP] Azrael vs. Kokonoe Match-up Discussion

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Discussion about the Kokonoe match-up goes here.

Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

Notable Matches:

N/A

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Just letting everyone know you can growler through her unblockable set up. The black hole is counted as a multi-hitting projectile and the lightning that she locks down with for the setup is also a projectile so have fun with that.

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I dunno if its every time though, and I'm not an avid Azrael player, but I couldn't get Growler to last through the gap between the laser and the black hole, so you might have to backdash or do double growler or somethin if this happens.

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Oh wow, this is great.

So apparently if Kokonoe tries to teleport out of meaty 5B, 5BB auto-corrects directions and it also counter-hits (ground bounce, woop woop).

EDIT: this just keeps getting better. Likewise, if you decide to do forward-dash cross-up mix-up (after j.D/j.2D, 6D/3D, grounded rekka knockdowns), you can also meaty 5B/B for the counter-hit.

EDIT 2: you can also delay slightly to get another 5B instead of 5BB if you want 5B>3C route.

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Oh wow, this is great.

So apparently if Kokonoe tries to teleport out of meaty 5B, 5BB auto-corrects directions and it also counter-hits (ground bounce, woop woop).

EDIT: this just keeps getting better. Likewise, if you decide to do forward-dash cross-up mix-up (after j.D/j.2D, 6D/3D, grounded rekka knockdowns), you can also meaty 5B/B for the counter-hit.

EDIT 2: you can also delay slightly to get another 5B instead of 5BB if you want 5B>3C route.

That's pretty great. Playing a Koko in casuals last night, I noticed that whenever she would teleport out of meaty attacks, I would just autopilot my pressure and counterhit her free. If it works so well on accident, then having this in mind should let us do a lot to her.

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How the eff do I deal with this character's blockstrings :X

As a noob Koko, teleporting loses to his oki. Mashing 5A/2A in his blockstrings leads to me getting counterhit, but I can't just block his strings forever.. He growlers my projectiles. I can't jump away because his moves swat me out of the air. I'm also always in a corner.

:(

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Just look at the post up above, the kind man explains why you can't just mash out of pressure vs Azrael. Everything is safe on block xD. He's more of a walking frametrap than human Valk. Force him out with barrier or something, but this is really something that needs to be in the matchup threads.

Mod Edit: Posts moved, but context still fits with what was said lol.

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For the TP, since we can punish with 5B easely and that we're sure it will CH, when you have a high WP and your opponent TPs, you can use CH 5B into Valiant, never saw anyone talk about this, probably because it's not hit confirmable, but here we have an easy application : CH 5B > 236D > 5Cx4 > 3C > 6A > 5B > 2C > 5B > TCL > 5B > BHS (6174 dmg)

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This is pretty simple stuff, but if a Kokonoe thinks they can mindlessly set fireball on you, and you have 50 meter, BHS beats it out easy. Even with graviton up, it still covers at least 3/4 if the screen. Even stuffs the super fireball, since you'll hit them as they fire it, they fly back, and you can chase while the fireball lands harmlessly behind you. BHS will hit Kokonoe after her invul runs out, and the super fireball will be too high to hit you, even if they already had a graviton out.

Not sure if BHS stands up to OD gravity though.

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Fighting this character makes no sense. I have no idea what to do. She can just stand behind her electric panel and you have to walk forward and let her put you into blockstun. 236A is useless, dash can't go through it and gets destroyed by her 3C sweep.

Her J.A pretty much beats everything I have in the air, it's absolutely insane. It trades with max range j.C and she gets knockdown into a 50/50 from an air to air confirm with it. Your 214B is basically what she wants. She outdamages you from almost any hitconfirm. Her backdash is amazing and she can chicken j.B during pressure to get a free combo...

I won't go on but seriously, what do?

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Jumping is something you shouldn't do unless you're trying to avoid fireball or if you know your opponent likes to whiff c normals in neutral, and when you are in the air, j.B is your best air-to-air by far.

Likewise, 236A is something you should avoid in neutral versus all characters unless you know you've got your opponent scared/you think you can abuse him.

If you're getting hit by her j.B during pressure, you need to seriously rework your pressure then to deal with that. 5B and 2A and j.B are your friends.

Speaking from personal experience, her 5C and j.C are the things I have the most trouble with, simply because they have silly long range for normals and are projectiles, so I can't 6A/5C/3C where I normally could. That and of course her zoning capability and ability to force me out on a whim with 236D is particularly frustrating, but that just means I have to play more patient.

My final advice to you is something that applies to all matchups in terms of getting pressured, but relies on psychology: if you backdash or growler like no tomorrow and eventually your opponent will be looking for it. Once you've created that gap, you can 5A out, and that's one of your best pressure starters. Something so simple can result in a massive change in momentum.

I hope some of this helped and I'm not just rattling off garbage.

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Jumping is something you shouldn't do unless you're trying to avoid fireball or if you know your opponent likes to whiff c normals in neutral, and when you are in the air, j.B is your best air-to-air by far.

Likewise, 236A is something you should avoid in neutral versus all characters unless you know you've got your opponent scared/you think you can abuse him.

If you're getting hit by her j.B during pressure, you need to seriously rework your pressure then to deal with that. 5B and 2A and j.B are your friends.

Speaking from personal experience, her 5C and j.C are the things I have the most trouble with, simply because they have silly long range for normals and are projectiles, so I can't 6A/5C/3C where I normally could. That and of course her zoning capability and ability to force me out on a whim with 236D is particularly frustrating, but that just means I have to play more patient.

My final advice to you is something that applies to all matchups in terms of getting pressured, but relies on psychology: if you backdash or growler like no tomorrow and eventually your opponent will be looking for it. Once you've created that gap, you can 5A out, and that's one of your best pressure starters. Something so simple can result in a massive change in momentum.

I hope some of this helped and I'm not just rattling off garbage.

You are right, and that is how I try to play most matchups, the problem is two things.

One is that I should clarify what I mean by J.B/J.Aing out of pressure. The problem is that if she barrier blocks something like 5BB>236A, 2B>236A, etc, I have to reapply pressure. But jump J.A/J.B seems to beat pretty much every option because of their insane amount of active frames. If I dash, J.A/J.B wins, if I jump, they win, if I 6C, they win. When you combine that she can hitconfirm off those while jumping back, something most characters can't do. I feel like my only option is to just play safe and wait for another chance to go in. Which might very well be what I need to do, but I feel like I'm missing something, which is why I'm asking.

The other problem is the conditioning with the DP. I just feel like the risk vs reward is just to unfavourable to try something like that. There's 3 scenarios that happens with 214B

1) She blocks, I do 214B, I get punished for huge damage.

2) She avoids/pseudo "safe"s it by doing long normals like 3C and 5C and makes it whiff. I do 214, I get punish for slightly less damage but still huge damage.

3) She gets hit by 214B, she gets sent full screen where she has a huge advantage and is still + after getting hit while only taking 500 damage.

I was talking to one of the Kokonoes I was facing and they were like they pretty much didn't care about baiting the DP, since if they got hit by growler, they can just zone safely full screen because of it. The chances that the Kokonoe will make up that 500 damage she took during her zoning game is incredibly high due to 50/50 teleport mixups, traps etc. If it was like Jin's, Kagura's DP etc where it goes into knockdown and does around 2k on counter hit, then sure, it'd be great, but using Grolwer just doesn't really make sense.

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You are right, and that is how I try to play most matchups, the problem is two things.

One is that I should clarify what I mean by J.B/J.Aing out of pressure. The problem is that if she barrier blocks something like 5BB>236A, 2B>236A, etc, I have to reapply pressure. But jump J.A/J.B seems to beat pretty much every option because of their insane amount of active frames. If I dash, J.A/J.B wins, if I jump, they win, if I 6C, they win. When you combine that she can hitconfirm off those while jumping back, something most characters can't do. I feel like my only option is to just play safe and wait for another chance to go in. Which might very well be what I need to do, but I feel like I'm missing something, which is why I'm asking.

The other problem is the conditioning with the DP. I just feel like the risk vs reward is just to unfavourable to try something like that. There's 3 scenarios that happens with 214B

1) She blocks, I do 214B, I get punished for huge damage.

2) She avoids/pseudo "safe"s it by doing long normals like 3C and 5C and makes it whiff. I do 214, I get punish for slightly less damage but still huge damage.

3) She gets hit by 214B, she gets sent full screen where she has a huge advantage and is still + after getting hit while only taking 500 damage.

I was talking to one of the Kokonoes I was facing and they were like they pretty much didn't care about baiting the DP, since if they got hit by growler, they can just zone safely full screen because of it. The chances that the Kokonoe will make up that 500 damage she took during her zoning game is incredibly high due to 50/50 teleport mixups, traps etc. If it was like Jin's, Kagura's DP etc where it goes into knockdown and does around 2k on counter hit, then sure, it'd be great, but using Grolwer just doesn't really make sense.

This is all more or less the "problem" with Azrael's gameplay now, and it doesn't apply to just Kokonoe. For his pressure, he really only gets 1, maybe 2, "mix-up" chances before being back to a "neutral" situation. Growler can also be counter-productive in certain match-ups from a basic match-up standpoint. Yea it did some damage and got them off you, but it also puts the opponent in the exact situation Azrael does not want to be in. This is even worse if you hit them out of the air and it is a non-CH, because some characters can tech then IMMEDIATELY reapply pressure. Tao even gets to punish Azrael in this case for a huge combo.

So just in general a lot of what you're talking about is true in other match-ups as well and could just be considered part of his character flaws.

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Kokonoe player here. Some things to note:

Your full screen super? So... fun story. Friend of mine did it to punish a 5C at about mid range after I did it. Azrael flew into the active hitbox, got counter hit, and I got 6k. Don't use it to punish 6C.

Growler beats 5C, since 5C is a projectile.

2C is your best friend. Abuse it.

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You have to slow down the neutral game like you do with a lot of characters.

A lot of people (i'm not saying anyone in this thread) doesn't really understand how to play the neutral game with azrael. You can play it in two parts with phalanx and without phalanx. They're two very different games. My advice to you if you're playing the no phalanx game is to just wait and try to build a charge or two, try to walk forward to trigger her electric trap without actually standing under it. I know several people that didn't know it'll activate just by getting close, then backdash/forward dash/growler. Once you're in, go nuts. Be prepared to do 5B > 5B > TCL regardless if you wiff the first 3-4 hits. Teach koko she can't teleport on AZ. I love that you can followup on wiff. (I feel like 80% of my vs koko matches are gonna be won off vortex to kill or full life BHS / phalanx > BHS tho)

I agree with backdash/growler all day until she gives you some space. This is just something i do with Az though...I wont block for at least 2 matches...(NOT ADVOCATING THAT KIDS). Unfortunately the moves that fuck with me the most, j.C and 3(?)C (The whip she throws at your feet that out reaches our 5c =/) These moves tend to hit you out of growler without extending her hurtbox far enough for backlash...I love growler, but I hate it too... IMO backdash all day if you're not in the corner. I believe she has to hard read you with an airdash or a 3C to beat backdash which will either open her up or end her blockstring sooner.

As a koko, or really playing against Az with a character without strong DP options. Block one move and chicken block ALL DAY. I either stay on someone the whole match til death, or spend the whole match chasing them. (I understand you dont want to spam 236A, but frankly I use it to dash all the time in this matchup. Gets me under fireballs, and with 50% might let me start pressure (also learn a midscreen combo off 236A RC, i've got standing and crouching confirms) This is probably his biggest weakness and the only way to deal with it is to be patient and push them to the corner. If they get out...and koko does rather easily sometimes...you just have to go back to being patient Now you may say this isn't fair and why does she get to start free pressure all the time...There's no answer for that. She's koko, you're not.

6B beats koko j.C from quite a ways away(usually)!

Some very very general advice, these are not an end all be all, just good options to think about for very general situations (might not even should be in the koko thread =/):

If they mash something thats not a DP (EASY) just frametrap with 5BB / 5C > XX all day

If they chicken block all day chase 236A / 5C > 6C / Airthrow, 5BB > 5BB > 5BB blockstrings tend to mess with these people

If they mash DPs, crossups probably dont work unless its on they're wakeup, just means i eat a counterhit 2C instead of DP =/. Learn your fatal combos. Az can do 4.7k no bar, no weakpoints, max distance 5C on a baited infernal divider, you just have to hitconfirm crouching. It's going to boil down to who can read who harder. Its really going to help if you're turning your reads into half life. But quite honestly I would rather chase down koko and arakune than play the hitbox wars with ragna and taokaka... Ragna 5B > azrael

If they block LOL spam weakpoints >:)

I would be totally (kinda) fine with the match if it wasnt for her j.C...fuck that move.

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I think it's worth noting that 3D will always wiff on Koko after airborn TCL midscreen. This isn't something I've noticed against any other characters.

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My final advice to you is something that applies to all matchups in terms of getting pressured, but relies on psychology: if you backdash or growler like no tomorrow and eventually your opponent will be looking for it. Once you've created that gap, you can 5A out, and that's one of your best pressure starters. Something so simple can result in a massive change in momentum.

I hope some of this helped and I'm not just rattling off garbage.

Far from garbage, I thought this point was excellent, kudos.

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Since it seems like Koko will make it at least another month or so before the banhammer comes down I'll drop my thoughts on this matchup.

Azrael has tools to deal with her shit but she is just STRONG so it is still difficult (he isn't near as bad off as most though).

3C straight up shits on Azrael. Far and away the number one move to look out for. If you eat it it will usually lead to 4k+ depending on the meter they spend and how they confirm it. Simply put we don't have a solid answer to this move. 2C/5C/gustaf all lose free. 6C works occasionally due to low invuln but is slow and gets bodied by 6A. The best thing to do is instant block the second hit and either backdash or start pressure if you are close enough to 5A.

6A is the best anti air in the game. She can react late as hell and still anti air an IAD j.B. Attempting to jump/airdash in is reserved for reads or punishes only. Don't fuck with this move.

j.2C is a brutal air to ground move. If she is smart when using it you can't anti air her with anything. However with enough experience against her you can start to spot when you can anti air her with 2C. I have experimented with 6B against it in training mode and it seems ok. I will test that next time in casuals. Don't bother with the usual 5A/5B anti airs unless they like jumping in with j.A/B for some reason.

As far as what to do in neutral. She will run and you will push forward. If you can trap her in the corner you win. If not you lose. Watch for the graviton place > teleport when her back gets against the wall. Remember you can always BHS the recovery of teleport.

You can eat traps with 66 > 2147B for free stocks just be careful if she tries to go in for a mixup. Eating a full fireball is two stocks. I learned a bunch of phalanx combos just for this matchup (and Mu I guess).

For super ball punishes there are a couple of really strong options if you have OD + 50 that basically immediately win you the round especially since phalanx stocks are so free in this matchup.

Koko's back to corner

[OD + 50 + 1 stock] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > phalanx > 66 > 5B > combo

[OD + 50 + 1 stock + UW] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > phalanx x2 > 6D > combo

[OD + 50 + LW] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > 3D > combo

You should get the idea from here. It uses the falling super ball as a free RC. Any of these combos break 7k pretty effortlessly and 9k if you super again.

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Some of my thoughs from playing with Jiyuna and Nemo.

Koko sitting under lightning pole: Can't do much. Need to somehow pop the pole. If she tries to setup fireball to teleport, you can do pre-emptive growler to absorb it but you still end up in bad position. OR you can try to avoid the fireball by jumping and back/forward dashing depending on what koko does.

General thoughs:

6C is probably the best AND the worst thing in this matchup. On correct read it can tag a lot of stuff. Or then again you can just crack shoot right into koko 6A and blargh.

All around this matchup feels that you need to outsmart and outread Koko player badly. If not, you're gonna have a bad time. I don't feel that you can play this matchup too safely. If you do, you let koko do her shit and you get fucked(still need to study Dogura vs tsuji matches but yeah).

Every hit you get, make them count. If you get her to corner, you win IF you can outread her. She has options, even more so with meter.

In nutshell: Probably gonna be your hardest MU. Need to outplay and outsmart opposing Koko badly. Don't think there's nothing more to add. Most of the stuff already has been said in other posts.

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For super ball punishes there are a couple of really strong options if you have OD + 50 that basically immediately win you the round especially since phalanx stocks are so free in this matchup.

Koko's back to corner

[OD + 50 + 1 stock] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > phalanx > 66 > 5B > combo

[OD + 50 + 1 stock + UW] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > phalanx x2 > 6D > combo

[OD + 50 + LW] Super Ball > OD > 5C > delay > BHS > ball hit > 3D > combo

You should get the idea from here. It uses the falling super ball as a free RC. Any of these combos break 7k pretty effortlessly and 9k if you super again.

I found those combo interesting so I looked into those to see what I can get, after some time in the lab I found punishes for every situation without any phallanx stock needed, and just oploaded a video about it (btw the one you edited out with the 22C after BHS is so damn hard).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JmT2BFp6jA

Now talking of the matchup in general, as a player of both characters, I found it to be very hard for Azrael, don't know yet if it's her worst matchup as most Kokonoes I play don't change their gameplan much against Azrael. But I do play the matchup on the other side with a friend, and he really hates it, especially as I'm really into zoning as Kokonoe.

Anyway, here's a few things I would add:

First, I wouldn't say that her j2C can't be anti aired, you sure can't use 5A or 5B but 2C and 6B will work both fine against it , j2C hitbox is big but it's a very slow jump in with 17f startup, one thing you might want to look out for graviton setups that can make it hit crossup. And even if I'm sure almost everyone knows this, be sure to tech right away if you get hit to not give her 3k more damage for free, I still get this sometimes as Kokonoe.

One thing I would disagree on is Phallanx stocks being free in this matchup, this is only the case against players that won't change their gameplan and throw fireballs carelessly. As Kokonoe, I would say I still give a phallanx by mistake every one out of ten matches or so, most of the I try to bait the Azrael into thinking he can Growler one and hit him with a CH 3C.

Fireball are mostly used as an offensive/oki tool but combined with a graviton in front of her, they make a good defense wall, she can summon one to cover the time between a 22B activating and setting one again, you can't 662147B it like a 22B, trying to growler it while being sucked in is asking for getting CH 3C'd.

Now if you got phallanxes, this limits her options but be patient and try to use it when it will really count, the best way is to stay just outside of her 3C range, this way you can followup a Phallanx hit with 66 > tk TCL that will give 2.5k and some corner carry, you can get about 4.5k, a weak point and oki by RCing TCL, way better than going straight into BHS. From farther away you can do Phallanx > 66 tk Phallanx > 66 tk TCL but that's not easy.

Punishing gravitons on reaction isn't likely but fireballs and 22Bs are easy, she can still summons fireballs in the air to avoid Phallanx but this has a lot of recovery that you should use to get closer.

If you get hit by a combo ending by 236B midscreen while having 50% heat, delay emergency tech by a few frames to avoid the followup explosionand buffer a 236236, if she sets anything more than just a 22B or graviton, hit D and the BHS will punish her, punishes a fireball set in that sitation too (but most Kokos should 22B, at least I would).

On defense, without a graviton set, her blockstrings suffers a lot from barrier, her 6A is amazing as it makes some reverse beats blockstring possible but it has no horizontal range so using barrier can make it whiff for a free punish, sadly Azrael isn't one of the characters which using barrier makes the meaty 2B(1) > 6A > 2B blockstring not possible, but for things like meaty 2A > 5A > 2B(1) > 6A > 2B, which gives her two shots at a 2B/jC mixup, it will make the 6A whiff.

You also need to be aware of her blockstrings capabilities, the important thing is the 2B moves limitation, which means if at any point she uses 2B then 5B, the only low she can use after is 3C, 3C doesn't chain from 5B so you can get up there, also 3C is bad for her in blockstrings. Not that it's punishable with a -1 on block, but it has minimum range, if you IB the move before it, at least the first hit of 3C or even the whole move will whiff and leaves her open for a crouch punish, also if you happen to block a 3C, try to IB it so at -4, she'll be forced to back down, the second hit isn't a low if that helps you to IB.

Also one thing to know is that on IB, her 2B isn't a true blocktring into anything, which means you can backdash out of the following blockstring, only thing she can do to punish is 2B into delayed 3C, with a quite strict timing to tag Azrael backdash, but that's bad for her as a blocked 3C is the end of pressure, and also can leave her exposed to a punish as I explained above.

For her 6B, you should be able to block on reaction, a lot of Kokonoe will try to go for a 22A on block to keep frame advantage but it's easy to counter, from a close 6B, IB the second hit and you can CH 5A the 22A startup (beware of Azrael 5A's short range), if she's not too close when doing the 6B, IB barrier the second hit and the pillar will whiff just in front of you, allowing you to FC 5C the recovery for a nice punish.

She has a safe jump setup in the corner by doing 236D > 5D > high jump cancel falling jB, will also catch forward rolls so don't try anything if someone does that, though I found this myself and didn't post it yet in the Koko forums so I don't know if others do it.

On the offense, you also have a corner safe jump setup, after a grounded TCL finisher, just hold up then do a falling jB > 5B~4AB, on block this will jB 5B, if he rolls forward jB will tag him and combo into 5B for a punish, and if he super balls it will block, you'll also be able to active OD during freeze if you want. This can also be done after if the TCL hits as a juggle, you just have to delay the jump a little depending on the height TCL hits, it's not really hard to do.

After a corner jD/j2D knockdown, doing meaty 5D/2D~5B will punish a reversal TP, of course using meaty 5A/5B will work too, actually TPs are bad against Azrael but you should still do TP safe okis to make the player understand he won't get away with it.

So for this matchup, I would agree with Kinkuli, it's a very hard one if you're fighting a competent Koko that knows what she can't do against Azrael, but if the player hasn't work on this matchup and isn't somewhat good at zoning, you can actually make him feel a bit helpless.

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I found those combo interesting so I looked into those to see what I can get, after some time in the lab I found punishes for every situation without any phallanx stock needed, and just oploaded a video about it (btw the one you edited out with the 22C after BHS is so damn hard).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JmT2BFp6jA

Yeah I had so much trouble with the OD 5C > delay > BHS > 22C combo that I figured it was too impractical so I just removed it from that list. Maybe someone else will have more luck than me. Personally I will just make sure they have a LW whenever I knock them down in the corner. OD > 5C > delay > BHS > LW 3D > combo is really free and like easy 8k. The combos you can do fully loaded with both weakpoints are straight comical. Good shit on the video btw. I will be learning some of those for sure later.

As far as getting stocks in this matchup it is easiest to dash > tk growler the bunker for stocks. Carries some risk of course since she can mixup you as you come out but a lot of the times you can get 1 or 2 without too much risk.

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So I saw this video in the Koko forums and it reminded me of an OS I found to work against her midscreen fireball oki that I forgot to post here, I explained it in this post, with this you can safely block or growler all her okis with a left/right mixup involving either a fireball or a 22B.

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Totally stealing that OS. Cheers. I can almost hear the lamentations of koko players.

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