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zeth07

[CP] Azrael vs. Noel Match-up Discussion

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Discussion about the Noel match-up goes here.

Anyone is free to post info as long as it is constructive and helps with the discussion of the match-up.

Notable Matches:

[09/14/13] Noel VS Tahichi (Azrael) = http://youtu.be/9twDlp6jzAI?t=2m31s

[08/20/13] Mio On (NO) vs. Roriotto (AZ) = http://youtu.be/rfM86Bgl0wk?t=16m39s

[08/20/13] Mio On (NO) vs. Showa Tiger Mask (AZ) = http://youtu.be/rfM86Bgl0wk?t=11m21s

[08/20/13] Tochigin vs. Mio On (NO) = http://youtu.be/TKUWq2F4zY4?t=18m21s

[08/20/13] Kezia vs. Mio On (NO) = http://youtu.be/TKUWq2F4zY4?t=9m14s

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Would a delayed DP\Backdash beat that, though?

Yes. Given the frame data the move Noel uses has 25 frames of startup followed by two active frames. Our backdash is 26 frames, the last 6 of which are vulnerable. Assuming Noel times her 6D to correspond with our wakeup, that would put the active frames at 26 and 27 frames after wakeup. To backdash this, we would have to start our backdash 7 frames in or later, so that we're still invulnerable by the last active frame (Of course she could delay it an equal amount of time, but doing so intentionally sounds pretty crazy).

However, waiting like that would open you up to having to block her anytime she could toss out a jab at you after wake-up, let alone meaty you.

Using Growler safely would be an even longer wait.

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It's an option, at least. It's not like they can just toss that out on every wakeup, specially because like mentioned, mashing jab beats it.

Stupid INV frames on everything Noel has.

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Neutral:

j.B rules air-to-air situations, except if Noel does a hard read j.D.

Ground to air, dive kick is quite good, beating her 4D if spaced correctly, also punish D spam in general. IAD j.B gets punished by 4D easily, so be careful about your air dash approach. Airdash is not a good option to get close to Noel in general.

Ground to ground, again be careful with throwing Gustaf out, since 4D cleanly CH it.

Anti-air, 2C beats jump-in as usual, but it can be difficult to react to her IAD j.C. If she's right above your head though, j.D/j.4D will beat all of your anti-air options, so don't throw out a 5A like other match-ups. There's no real answer to j.D except blocking. j.4D doesn't happen a lot, but since it has 10 start-up frame on ground you can actually 5B CH her, or jump the hell out.

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Noel 4D is a PROBLEM for us. It straight up invalidates most of our normally good meaties/oki. Dump/6A/5A/5B/2C/6D/5D all lose hard to her 4D. Basically on her wakeup you have to 2A/2B/3D her everytime or risk getting bodied by 4D.

I don't think we have any setups that are safe to both Fenrir and 4D. I will spend some time this week trying to figure one out though.

Fenrir is also too fast to 6A post flash but active 6A will beat or clash with Fenrir every time.

My Noel matchup exp is pretty weak atm so I am wondering if anyone with more experience against her knows any useful tips for dealing with 4D effectively.

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2B late cancel to dump/gustaf? All things considered you should be able to confirm the hit to 236A, RC, 3C, 2B/22C (corner/midscreen).

My mu exp is also pretty weak but I was thinking about this one the other day as well since I got pretty blown up by 4D without having much to say about it.

Overall when facing Noel I'm feeling a bit backed up against the wall wich feels strange considering she's not a zoner.

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Tips on some things.

The key to the match-up is to stay in the offensive, and never go defensive, since it's not in your best interest with all the 50/50+ grab mix up potential. You CAN growler almost every part of the string, but be wary of her lows. If you HAVE to be defensive, try your best to watch out for the grab setup. Because I guarantee you if they can't auto-pilot mixup you, they'll settle for command grabbing you. In terms of offense, you can't meaty, but you CAN safe-jump her ass. This stuffs 4D, backdash, all rolls, etc etc. This way, as long as you get a good start (or get offensive somewhere in the match) you should be able to stay that way for the most part.

Anti-Air wise, I'd recommend 6B. I know it sounds crazy, but you want to play this match very carefully. If a Noel comes down with D, and you do 2C, you might get boned. 5B is dangerous in this situation as well. 6B says "I DON'T THINK SO!" Not to mention, if you whiff, it pushes you backward to safety where you can reassess the spacing and what you want to do. Trust me on this.

Don't let her just run the entire stage, either. 5C if you're comfortable, to let her know it's not alright to come in at you. Just enough to where it forces them to think a bit more. Gustaf isn't safe, so don't do it. Trust me, this whiffs on almost everything she does, unless you get lucky. She isn't entirely air-dominant to us, either. Just stay conservative of how you approach in the air though.

-4D-

Meaty isn't an option with Noel, more or less. Unless you REALLY condition them to not 4D, you just have to play the match-up without the typical Azrael dominance. In terms of beating it, a few things do. You can do 3C which beats it HELLA hard, and is recommended if they do it on wakeup every time. 2A can also beat it out, which is what most other characters do. 3C recommended if it leaves you safe, and 2A isn't reasonable range. Like I said, safe jumping this makes life a lot easier. I personally prefer TCL>Super Jump>2D safe-jump, since it easily catches everything. If they catch on to that, you can go for dash forward>cancel forward dash into jump>safe-jump j.B.

Use your mind in the matchup and you'll at least learn something. Eventually it'll become a player vs. player matchup as opposed to a character thing. You'll learn a style, and start whoopin' em.

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2A meaty isn't that bad in this match up really. It basicly takes away her 4D mash on wakeup and let's you run your basic pressure, albeit in a bit modified form. Once you do it few times the noel players usually, if they are smart, stop spamming 4D.

Now 4D can be a problem if your pressure strings get to a point where you are at 5B/5BB etc. stage. At that point 4D becomes a real threat but luckily you can still gatling to 3C to blow it up.

Other than that, i'd personally try to play this match a bit more carefully. Her drive moves are the god and atleast in japan people tend to use them preemptively A LOT. If you notice some habits your opponent have, like where they tend to mash 4D then you can try to blow it up with 3D for tons of damage. Might want to hold back on 5BB to stuff in this match up because 4D. Even if 5BB is is +5, it leaves you in bit of a bad position in this match up imo.

In a nutshell: 2A oki all day everyday, if she has 50 meter then you need to read out reversal fenrirs. Once you condition her not to use 4D on every wakeup then you can run more of your pressure game like 2A 5A 2A, 2A 2A, 2A 5D etc. Crossups are also pretty good i suppose. Be careful with AAing because she can use preemptive jD.

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Noel 4D is a PROBLEM for us. It straight up invalidates most of our normally good meaties/oki. Dump/6A/5A/5B/2C/6D/5D all lose hard to her 4D. Basically on her wakeup you have to 2A/2B/3D her everytime or risk getting bodied by 4D.

I don't think we have any setups that are safe to both Fenrir and 4D. I will spend some time this week trying to figure one out though.

Fenrir is also too fast to 6A post flash but active 6A will beat or clash with Fenrir every time.

My Noel matchup exp is pretty weak atm so I am wondering if anyone with more experience against her knows any useful tips for dealing with 4D effectively.

 

 

I'm pretty sure someone posted this, but 4D is not lower body invul. Break. Her. Ankles. Whenever I think noel is about to throw out a 4D, I either 3D, 2D, or 3C, it might be hella stupid for me to do so, but I usually tag her and start that combo train.\

 

 

When I'm playing against noel I have trouble starting up my offense she usually does a whole bunch of drive moves and does that assault move where she goes to the other side. What can I do against that? Growler?

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I think you should be able to jump over it if you react in time.

 

From there, you can hit with a jump-in j.b and get a combo.

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So, I fought this one Noel last night, and the biggest problem I had with her, was that I couldn't pin the bitch down. She kept staying out of my range, and mostly in the air. And at that point you would say, just use 2C. Except it wasn't that easy, she would do delayed double jumps, and then j.D, and continue chaining into other shit. She was constantly driving, so I couldn't just get in with Gustav and such. I don't know, have any of you witnessed this yet?

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I mean, in theory, you just block all the drives and punish 'cause drive enders are all unsafe and ending without a drive ender is even more unsafe. In practice, you're probably gonna get better mileage from just do a dp after any drive hit that isn't d.5A 'cause her drive mixup is pretty strong and blocking them is hard. Of course, you could get baited by a d.4D and punished for 5k meterless, but I think it's still worth it to keep her from doing Drives for free. If she's trying to bait, she's not applying mixups.

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(Sorry about this. This is just brain storm post trying to find solutions)

 

Ok. I'm in training mode, and whenever noel does a drive, she takes a step back. From what little experimenting I've done, it seems as if she is punishable by 3C unless you're in the corner and she's at max range. In that scenario I have to do Gustav and rapid cancel. 5B whiffs, and 5C didn't counter so I can't follow it up with anything.

 

Edit: So just to test. What I'm doing is this. Noel does 5D, 5A (hold 1 for the crouch block)

On normal block, I can get a punish with Gustav and 3C. On IB...and if I'm close enough I can connect with 5b.

 

Edit 2: I tried using growler on certain parts of her Drive and I'm getting mixed results. Sometimes Growler goes through, and other times it doesn't. Am I missing the punish or am I making Noel do her drive moves too slow?

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5.5 Azrael Favor. Everything said above and by Synster is a perfect sum up. 

 

Edited my shit out because everything I said was based on me not set playing enough against the character. 

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I played a lot of Noellers online and I have to say she is definitely one of Azrael's tougher match ups and 90% of that reason is because 4D which makes it extremely risky to apply pressure.

 

You just can't meaty this slut with anything when she wakes up and when she hits you for odee damage from that one move, she will definitely start spamming it after every block she makes unless she's a good player. 

 

That's why you 3C her bitch ass like Eddy Guerrero. I personally would rather 3D spammy Noels that like wake up and mash 4D. Shit gives you like 4.5k damage and teaches her to start blocking like someone who's not a scrub and wants to get to her invincibility as fast as possible. 3D is definitely one of Azrael's favorite options when you want to play fisherman during this fight. 

 

Also IAD j.Bing "sometimes" can catch her trying to do that Drive move where she makes a big jump and comes down with the guns at you on it's start up.

 

But if u do that too much she'll anti air u easily. 

 

I didn't know that you can 2A as a meaty and 4D won't work on wake up. Should consider trying that to pressure instead of everything else which gets countered. 

 

idk about this though. i think it is actually 5.5 in Azrael's favor. 214b really shuts down noel when she does drive moves. 4d isn't a good reversal at all. just 2a it or if you are calling it out 3d. when she is in the corner she is done. yes she does a lot of damage, yes her mixup is goodish i would say, and yes she can steal rounds. but honestly this isn't a bad MU for us. just play smart and you can win easily.

 

2c can beat her 2d easy but combos off of it are meh. also 6a can beat it 2.

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idk about this though. i think it is actually 5.5 in Azrael's favor. 214b really shuts down noel when she does drive moves. just 2a it or if you are calling it out 3d. when she is in the corner she is done. yes she does a lot of damage, yes her mixup is goodish i would say, and yes she can steal rounds. but honestly this isn't a bad MU for us. just play smart and you can win easily.

 

2c can beat her 2d easy but combos off of it are meh. also 6a can beat it 2. 

 

Everything you say is right. 

 

 

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