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Kiba

[CP] Tsubaki vs Azrael

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Does using 3C call out his backdash effectively? It travels, and has a ton of active frames...

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It can. It's, an option (not something I'd do), but if it's blocked, good luck.

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Shield charge against his backdash barely works, if at all. Chasing it is the best option but hey, then he decides not to do it and you get mashed on for free. So it's still a huge guessing game, and definitely not liking how getting a knockdown isn't even in our favour most of the time...and doesn't seem to change with CP1.1 either. Bah.

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Yeah, you can't use air oki on him, so my general approach is to try to go for absolute max damage. the risk of getting mashed on is higher than the risk of getting growlerd, so I don't bait it very often.

With 50 heat he can pretty much full screen punish charging too.

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You can OS Azrael dashing through you by doing 421ABD when you have charge. You'll get barrier if he stays in front of you and D dp if he goes behind you (we're hella losing this in a few weeks though)

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Theoryfighten's time.

 

Assuming that whiff-gatling windows have not changed since Extend (since the crappy CP frame data has no info on them), what about using a 6B meaty on Azrael's wakeup?  Aiming for a meaty 6B, Gatling to 6BB as soon as you can gives you a gatling to 6BB on, basically, the last active frame of 6B.  So if one of the active frames was Azrael's 'wakeup frame', he immediately goes into invulnerable backdash, which gives him 20 frames of invuln.  He loses 2 or so of them to the active frames of 6B, then 6BB takes 15 frames to start up, leaving him with (20-15)-2=3 frames of invulnerability, and 6BB is active for 4 frames, and should hit and give you a much better starter than a 5A.  If he doesn't backdash, he either gets hit by the low, blocks it (in which case you can take your +1 frame advantage where you can get it) or he Growlers out, and there's not much you can do about that. 

 

It seems like it should work.   The only downsides I see are:

 

A) Might be hard to time. Will certainly require some practice, and if you screw up the timing, it could hurt.

B) Since 6BB has relatively long startup, it might be easier for him to see coming and growler out on reaction.  It has relatively subtle startup animation though, so it may balance out if used smartly.

C) It almost certainly won't move you forward far enough for this to work midscreen, so it'd be restricted to a corner only tactic.

 

Anyone try this?

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I would not recommend it. 6b is slow and has a low hitbox. timing it to hit meaty is going to be difficult and inconsistent against anyone that varies their tech timing. particularly delayed teching and upbacking will be difficult to stop. just a bad idea. even outside of any azrael backdash stuff.

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It's easier to time than a meaty overhead, being both faster and having more active frames, and people do use that, but okay.

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So something that has sortof been working for me against Azrael backdash nonsense.

 

Meaty 5A  >LINK> 5B. 

 

This will get you a 5B punish if he backdashes, and if he just blocks the 5A, you probably won't get mashed out of 5B startup unless he's mashing really furiously.  Also, if reactions are good, you can quickly mash 5A yourself and turn it into a stagger instead.

 

In theory, this should actually work with 5C as well, which would be safer and potentially more rewarding.

 

Curious to see if more talented people can make use of this - I haven't had anyone try to mash me out of it yet, but they might just not have figured out what's going on.

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You can do 5A>5C~5B to where if 5A hits, 5C comes out, but if 5A whiffs, you're inputting 5C during 5A's recovery and 5B comes out afterwards and 5B will hit. The only problem is that you can't convert off the 5B at all due to the spacing.

 

Only thing I can find that can OS his backdash that's worth doing is just doing 5CC. 

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You can do 5A>5C~5B to where if 5A hits, 5C comes out, but if 5A whiffs, you're inputting 5C during 5A's recovery and 5B comes out afterwards and 5B will hit. The only problem is that you can't convert off the 5B at all due to the spacing.

 

Only thing I can find that can OS his backdash that's worth doing is just doing 5CC. 

 

Thank you, master of option selects!

 

But yeah, I was only worrying about this in the corner - where spacing on the 5B isn't a problem.

 

5CC works? Looking at the numbers, it seems like it COULD, but the timing looks awkward - you'd need to delay 5CC slightly after 5C, I think?

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So why is this guy so widely considered to be a fair and honest character?  It seems like 90% of his moves are pure BS with some unreasonable combination of massive hitboxes, plus frames, monstrous active frames that TRANSLATE to plus frames, vague animations, and everything confirms into plenty of damage?  Plus special magic dashes for free crossups and get out of pressure free. (I want to ask the person who was all "Oh he totally needs Gustav, or he'd never be able to approach with his terrible dash what he was smoking)  As far as I can tell, the only thing keeping this guy from being the most BS character in the game is Kokonoe. :P

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Someone said this guy was an honest/fair character? I can't even fathom..

Since I'm here, I think I can say this matchup isn't that bad. Luckily you can keep him in the corner for a long time due to his backdash not really being able to help him there. Although I do mash 5A just to insure his backdash won't work. You can bait growler pretty nicely, but I find that move to be a bit stupid as far as punishing goes. Other than that, my only real complaint is neutral. The major thing is Gustaf, the fact that it's range is pretty good and it's not punishable makes it like a better version of our 236C. Once he's in, here comes his dash shenanigans.

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Pretty much; No one seems to be willing to publicly admit that he's anywhere near too good.  Watching people defend him when he got zero nerfs and a few quality of life buffs in the patch made me ill.

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I am actually bothered that he got a quality of life change to his 214D > 8 follow-up so that it tracks better so all his attacks in the air hit.

 

Then j.236D > j.214D still has problems against Azrael specifically because it sometimes doesn't hit him with all the hits even if spacing is correct and he sometimes flies behind you for whatever reason.

 

 

Someone said this guy was an honest/fair character? I can't even fathom..

Since I'm here, I think I can say this matchup isn't that bad. Luckily you can keep him in the corner for a long time due to his backdash not really being able to help him there. Although I do mash 5A just to insure his backdash won't work. You can bait growler pretty nicely, but I find that move to be a bit stupid as far as punishing goes. Other than that, my only real complaint is neutral. The major thing is Gustaf, the fact that it's range is pretty good and it's not punishable makes it like a better version of our 236C. Once he's in, here comes his dash shenanigans.

 

 

It is really hard to bait Sentinel Dump on wakeup because of its guard point. If you try to play it safe do some 5A/2A, you are most likely going to trade because of the ginormous active frames it has. You can't grab him out of it because he is airborne. If you block he is +12.

 

You can IB Gustaf to punish.

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I'm going to adopt Lord Knight's take on this matchup and see if it helps. Hope you don't mind LK.

 

 

[General Thoughts]

What makes the matchup personally difficult for me is just how he can dash through you and do whatever. Other than that if I play it correctly following the notes I'll be fine.

 

 

[Round Start]

He could 3C you at the start of the match and I haven't had success beating him with 22B. If you get hit by it, you'll be in the corner at the end of the combo. He could also use 6A if you try to dash approach. I tried to IAD back and use j.236A but they can catch you falling if they forward dash gustaf. I have had more success jumping straight up and seeing what they do. If they use gustaf/3C you can punish with falling j.C > combo, and if they use 6A you can IAD j.B > j.CC > combo. Sometimes I use super jump j.A/j.B to stop them from trying to play the air to air game.

 

He could also use 2C which can stop jumping approaches and any dash approach but 22B can beat it.

 

[Fullscreen Neutral]

You should be charging here, Azrael will be looking to try and advance in. Just make sure you don't get too greedy with charging because they could catch you will gustaf. Spacing is important. A full screen gustaf is easy to punish because it's easy to see coming. j.236A can be useful here to breathe a little to halt him and gain more charge but he can growler it and gain a projectile. Now this isn't a problem on the surface but it will be if you forget that he has one! It's too fast and I can't react to it with 421D > 236D so you'll have to be careful charging.

 

[Midscreen Neutral]

This is where using j.236A is more dangerous because he could just catch you falling with gustaf. At this range you should be looking to IAD away or get in his face. Gustaf is also harder to deal with here. Charging isn't a priority here, you should be focusing on movement and spacing. If the Azrael high jumps they are most likely looking for a divekick attempt. I haven't had success trying to beat it with 2C. I even attempted 623C and I was beat clean. Probably better to run underneath him, use 236C/D or IB the divekick and punish him (It should be a CH). A lot of Azrael's also like to mash 2C even in neutral but it works. Some even autopilot that shit into 6D so get ready to DP, especially if you blocked the 2C in the air.

 

[Azrael's Back to the Corner]

The same midscreen neutral kinda applies here although here is where you should be looking to rush him down unless you want to build your confidence with more charge.

 

[Tsubaki's Back to the Corner]

Well you don't really want to be here but they'll most likely use gustaf to keep you in the corner. IB helps here since you can mash 5A if they try to pressure you, or they'll backdash if they see you IB. If they are known to backdash when they notice your IB you can use something like IAD > j.C or 236D to catch the recovery and then potentially place him in the corner (potentially if you use IAD j.C since it varies on the combo you use). Also, IAD can help t o go over gustaf if they attempt it.

 

[Azrael's Pressure]

This is a little tricky. First off it will reallly help if you IB/barrier stuff. IB will help you to DP in many places which I've had alot of success with. Barrier will help to push him out and give you some chances to get out. Most of the time I can react to Azrael's doing dash pressure, but it's really troublesome if they use forward dash > TCL. It's real fast and difficult to block on reaction, even if you've been caught with it several times because you just don't know when he's gonna forward dash. Azrael can help you to build your reactions.

 

Like I said earlier, please IB gustaf. It will halt his pressure and give you the upper hand in switching the momentum, but if you normal block it, you'll be forced to guess between going for a DP, or blocking more pressure. If he uses 2C on block there's some options. 2C > 6D/3D can be dealt with either DP, or 5C CH > 6C. They're not too fast so the DP can be done even at the latest, but you'll have to be on point if you're looking for 5C CH. DP is the safest option here. 2C > 3C can't be mashed out of but can lose to DP, but if you did use DP you were probably mashing it. You should be looking to react to his followups after 2C not mashing as 2C is only -3 on block? It's not punishable, especially from max range.

 

5D is quite fast and isn't too easy to block, especially online haha. If he does catch you with an upper weak point don't always assume the player will aim for another. They could just get you with a low weakpoint and then you'll have two. This becomes problematic if he has meter where they like to do 5C > Black hawk stinger on block, since it becomes fully unblockable. You'll be in blockstun so DP won't work, and your only options are counter assault or burst if you don't want to take the damage. If you have a lot of health, take the damage, it's not worth the burst.

 

Sometimes they like to use max range 5C > 6C. You can AA the 6C if you have the reactions.

 

[Tsubaki's Pressure]

Same thing same thing with Tsubaki. Growler can sometimes trade with our things, I don't find it very troubling to worry about. Fireball pressure is useless here since they can just growler it. If you do knock them down they could use sentinel dump on their wakeup but this isn't difficult to deal with. If you use 5BB/5CC for instance, the 1st hit will be guarded but the followup attack will hit and cause Azrael to be in the air so get ready to followup with an air combo. Growler is standard, not really much you can do there. Black Hawk Stinger doesn't have any invincbility so they shouldn't be looking to do that. The other distortion he has does have invincibility but it's slower meaning you can react to it. Blocking it should be easy if you haven't used something with a lot of recovery. I think you may be able to block it if he used it during your 5B? (Some tests are in order), but otherwise if you used 5A for instance you can block it then CH punish him. If he has meter to RC it, you may be better retaliating with a DP so you're not subject to more pressure or allowing him to get away. Alternatively if you haven't committed to any attack then you can jump and make it whiff, then punish him.

 

Regarding combos, j.236A oki is useless against him, so you should always be going for max damage combos (You don't have to use the air enders when you have him in the corner, but I use them).

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Scud Punishment CAN whiff on meaty 5B but 5B needs to be done early, so it's mostly out of active frames by the time Azrael wakes up;  5B is 17 frames of recovery, Scud Punishment is effectively 19 frames of startup (5+14) - so if you're mostly done with the active frames, you're safe, but if you timed it so that 5B would have connected with its early active frames, you're still recovering when Scud goes live.

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 If you do knock them down they could use sentinel dump on their wakeup but this isn't difficult to deal with. If you use 5BB/5CC for instance, the 1st hit will be guarded but the followup attack will hit and cause Azrael to be in the air so get ready to followup with an air combo.

 

The experience I have had with this, especially since the input change happened with 1.1 has not been easy. I think it might just be me being too used to delaying gatlings, but I trade with Sentinel Dump's dust projectile at least 50% of the time if I try that approach. It also might just be online promblems but I don't know.

 

Also, think about it, if he keeps doing Sentinel Dump on wakeup, you will be pretty much forced into low damage air combos even if you maintain your momentum after each knockdown, unless you're in the corner and have 1 charge of course.

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You can OS Azrael dash through shenanigans with 421C~A+B to replace 421A+B+D. Thanks to the new input buffers, 4214C~A+B accomplishes the same thing too, but high blocks

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You can OS Azrael dash through shenanigans with 421C~A+B to replace 421A+B+D. Thanks to the new input buffers, 4214C~A+B accomplishes the same thing too, but high blocks

 

What will this do exactly?

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oh right, that makes sense.  I missed the word "through" somehow and was thinking "What kind of screwy oki setup is this?"

 

Makes a lot more sense like that. Must try it.

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Finally figured out how to get an actually good combo out of calling out wakeup Sentinel Dump. It has been working so far if they try wakeup Sentinel Dump on my first attempt at a Grab or Command Grab after ending a combo with 214B > 22B(w) or 3CC. All I do is dash up to them as I would regularly then, using the same timing, jump, j.D, and then air grab. The damage payout from this is much higher than getting a stray hit off of a followup after the first hit is guard pointed.

 

Only works once and the timing is pretty tight, though.

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