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Kiba

[CP] Tsubaki vs Kagura

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Discuss the Kagura matchup here!

 

 

Neutral

Seems like you barely have the opportunity to play the poking game. My game generally consists of a lot of waiting around and charging. It's risky to be aggro here. If he uses the B version Kaguras will generally use that time to try to get in, and at that point I may opt for [4]6D > 236D. Trying to jump over it is ok with a dive I suppose but Kagura may be able to tag you with 6C or even DP. 6C leads into good damage midscreen. The [4]6D > 236D is the safest option if Kagura is committing to something or dashing.

 

If Kagura uses the 6D~C (That lunge attack) in neutral you have some options:

-Jump and punish the recovery with j.C. This is a risky option because you could miscalculate the range, meaning you get hit by lunge attack, or you're too slow and the Kagura can just retaliate with DP.

-DP on reaction. Safer option with the reward being low if you don't have the necessary charge to followup. It's even easier to do this if you're not closer to him. Remember I said DP on reaction, he could go into stance and do nothing and you could mistakenly believe he'll attempt to followup.

-3C FC or 214B/D. You have to use them a little early to be successful (earlier with 3C), otherwise you'll get hit. 214B/D is more reliable.

 

If you try to challenge it with anything else you'll probably lose. That move has armor.

 

 

Our pressure/mixup

Please please please try to use j.236A or 22D > 6C > [4]6C/ (even blade super!) oki where you can. Learn the routes into j.236A, they're in the strategy guide. This way you won't have to worry so much about his DP, otherwise, you'll have to be real creative and quick about the mixup you use because most of our things will lose to it. 6A, followups into 6B, crossups, jump pressure, the works. If you use 5CC > charge cancel for instance, just be aware he can DP your incoming assault. It's just so easy for Kagura to do this.

 

 

His pressure/mixup

He has limited options up to his C gatlings and then they may opt to commit to a stance followup, which you can DP, but like I said they could just bait you. In other words, it could open up an escape route. Generally after knockdowns midscreen they'll go into B fireball oki. You can either let it hit you (It should blue beat but it may depend on how much they're prorated the combo), or you can roll backwards and then jump away. In the corner you'll have to delay tech (again may blue beat) or block and face the incoming mixup. He can only do 2A/5A > overhead. He can't gatling anything else into his normal overhead.

 

Kagura's damage output is real good, nothing to take lightly. Can get like 5k from overhead/command grab in the corner.

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Well I'll start off by saying this.

Kagura's DP is a [2]8C input which is 8f startup, meaning he can basically mash this at any time during our pressure as he is blocking. Due to this, you need to be careful with the type of pressure you inflict on him as any gap can be stuffed with this easily. The DP can also hit behind him so crossups won't work. His DP is basically like Mitsuru's from P4A. It can be punished but the recovery is too large so it may be difficult.

In neutral, you can't play the fireball game with him because his projectile is on a higher level than ours. It'll beat our DP flat out. When I see Kagura initiating the fireball (which is a charge attack btw) I like to do [4]6D > 236D against it. If you can't do anything, you'll have to try and get around the projectile because it allows Kagura to get in. I usually high jump then double jump and charge or use j.214C. Unfortunately, he does have an attack which can hit you out of the air so be careful.

When Kagura is pressuring you, again you need to be careful. He has 3 different stances which give him different options. If you don't know Kagura but you can recognise the stances I suggest you air back dash. His 3 different stances consist of 5D, 2D and 6D.

5D gives him access to a command grab and two other mids, one of which has super armor against everything but lows.

2D gives him access to a high and a low. He has one other attack consisting of two hits and the 2nd attack is a low.

6D gives him access to an attack where he goes behind you and hits you with a low, a standard attack, and an attack which has super armor against projectiles.

If you can recognise the stances, your easiest option would be to jump away, but of course it requires you to be quick on your feet. Alternatively you can do the riskier options hitting him out of his followup attack and confirming it i.e getting the 5C CH and following up with 6C, but he can beat this by following up into 5D~A which has super armor and will beat your mash attempts. He can also stance cancel the stance so again going for DPs may not be a good option unless you can actually react to some things.

This matchup is definitely not in our favour and it feels like you're at a disadvantage no matter what you're doing. In addition, I strongly advise you guys to research Kagura on the BBCP wiki to familiarise yourselves with his attacks. It'll make your life a whole load easier.

Oh yeah, he also has some good oki which consists of a knockdown into the fireball and if you neutral tech immediately you'll be forced to take the mixup. You can beat this by not teching however, but don't delay it too much as I'm not aware if Kagura has something against that.

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You can beat this by not teching however, but don't delay it too much as I'm not aware if Kagura has something against that.

The fireball will actually pick you up from the ground giving him a combo if he's paying attention, it also beats all rolls obviously. immediate or delay tech are your only options.

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Mmhmm, just remember it's only when he does the B version, but...that's the one he SHOULD be doing. Not sure if there are any combos that have to end in an A orb instead. If there are I believe you can roll through that.

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Ah alright. Also I forgot to mention that his j.C beats our DP on our wake up.

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Oh yeah, he also has some good oki which consists of a knockdown into the fireball and if you neutral tech immediately you'll be forced to take the mixup. You can beat this by not teching however, but don't delay it too much as I'm not aware if Kagura has something against that.

Ah basically, you're supposed to use to A Orb instead of the B Orb. The A orb doesn't OTG so if you don't tech, not only can Kagura delay the B Orb as Daeron said, but he can also use the A Orb as a slightly weaker but more reliable option because if you tech, you have to block, but if you don't tech then he can OTG you into a full combo. Best thing you can do is roll back or tech just before the OTG then either block or punish if kagura goes on auto-pilot.

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I hate playing this character. I don't want to buy him and I don't want to rush through the story so every time is playing uncertain when I can press a button or do anything.

I tried to read a wakeup flash kick and beat it with delayed D DP, but still lost. I think first hit clashed? and then his kept going and hit me. Oddly I think I've beaten it with delayed C DP before. Can't really test anything, unfortunately.

if you get DP'd and he has 50 heat you're looking at 3k damage. Not sure how much he can extend this with 75 or 100 heat or OD, but it's already a pretty bad situation.

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I hate playing this character. I don't want to buy him and I don't want to rush through the story so every time is playing uncertain when I can press a button or do anything.

I tried to read a wakeup flash kick and beat it with delayed D DP, but still lost. I think first hit clashed? and then his kept going and hit me. Oddly I think I've beaten it with delayed C DP before. Can't really test anything, unfortunately.

if you get DP'd and he has 50 heat you're looking at 3k damage. Not sure how much he can extend this with 75 or 100 heat or OD, but it's already a pretty bad situation.

If the information on the wiki is correct (no idea where it came from) then Kagura's flash-kick thing is invulnerable for nearly all of its active frames, so it's not going to be easy to beat like that. Maybe 214D would be a better idea, but we don't actually know what attributes it has. x.x

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Well I'll start off by saying this.

Kagura's DP is a [2]8C input which is 8f startup, meaning he can basically mash this at any time during our pressure as he is blocking. Due to this, you need to be careful with the type of pressure you inflict on him as any gap can be stuffed with this easily. The DP can also hit behind him so crossups won't work. His DP is basically like Mitsuru's from P4A. It can be punished but the recovery is too large so it may be difficult.

In neutral, you can't play the fireball game with him because his projectile is on a higher level than ours. It'll beat our DP flat out. When I see Kagura initiating the fireball (which is a charge attack btw) I like to do [4]6D > 236D against it. If you can't do anything, you'll have to try and get around the projectile because it allows Kagura to get in. I usually high jump then double jump and charge or use j.214C. Unfortunately, he does have an attack which can hit you out of the air so be careful.

When Kagura is pressuring you, again you need to be careful. He has 3 different stances which give him different options. If you don't know Kagura but you can recognise the stances I suggest you air back dash. His 3 different stances consist of 5D, 2D and 6D.

5D gives him access to a command grab and two other mids, one of which has super armor against everything but lows.

2D gives him access to a high and a low. He has one other attack consisting of two hits and the 2nd attack is a low.

6D gives him access to an attack where he goes behind you and hits you with a low, a standard attack, and an attack which has super armor against projectiles.

If you can recognise the stances, your easiest option would be to jump away, but of course it requires you to be quick on your feet. Alternatively you can do the riskier options hitting him out of his followup attack and confirming it i.e getting the 5C CH and following up with 6C, but he can beat this by following up into 5D~A which has super armor and will beat your mash attempts. He can also stance cancel the stance so again going for DPs may not be a good option unless you can actually react to some things.

This matchup is definitely not in our favour and it feels like you're at a disadvantage no matter what you're doing. In addition, I strongly advise you guys to research Kagura on the BBCP wiki to familiarise yourselves with his attacks. It'll make your life a whole load easier.

Oh yeah, he also has some good oki which consists of a knockdown into the fireball and if you neutral tech immediately you'll be forced to take the mixup. You can beat this by not teching however, but don't delay it too much as I'm not aware if Kagura has something against that.

His 28 DP doesn't require 2 to be charged?

I had some issue baiting the DP and blocking it in the air and then letting go of the barrier to early and getting caught out by the continuous hits because I'm not used to how that works.

It has an amazing hitbox as well and seems to be relatively hard to punish well due to how long the block stun lasts.

As people has pointed out, it kind of reminds me of the Mitsuru DP with more hits.

His orb mix up seems fairly solid, the overhead is pretty slow but it seems to be pretty rewarding if he can land it. He has that high, low continuous hit thing which can be followed up along with a quick cross over slash thing which I managed to 236236C as he tried to hit me.

The Kagura players I've faced so far have been of low to average skill level so I definitely haven't really seen what he can do but playing neutral, I feel like his movement was sluggish enough to get a good deal of charge before deciding to engage him. I'll try to get a set or two with Omni or something and then chime in again afterwards.

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his overheads are actually pretty fast. it was 22 frames for his non stance overhead I think. I've heard something about his stances being weak to just backsteps.. but I don't know.

I've had the 'barrier first hit of dp, stop barriering> get hit' thing happen to me a number of times.

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His stances have loads of startup. I think his fastest stance move is 30+ frames startup. He can go into them without too big a gap off his C moves but they're still easily mashable. The thing to watch for is that 5dA superarmors mids and 2dA goes over lows and throws so he can mixup mashing that way. Best thing to do is wait till he commits to a stance then mash him out after. He can only do one stance each per chain (I.e no 5dA to 5dC) so once you block one it's very easy to read the rest and punish.

Also his dp is safe on air block so don't jump too much I guess.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

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Allow me to tackle this a little more thoroughly.

 

Neutral

Seems like you barely have the opportunity to play the poking game. My game generally consists of a lot of waiting around and charging. It's risky to be aggro here. If he uses the B version Kaguras will generally use that time to try to get in, and at that point I may opt for [4]6D > 236D. Trying to jump over it is ok with a dive I suppose but Kagura may be able to tag you with 6C or even DP. 6C leads into good damage midscreen. The [4]6D > 236D is the safest option if Kagura is committing to something or dashing.

 

If Kagura uses the lunge in neutral you have some options:

-Jump and punish the recovery with j.C. This is a risky option because you could miscalculate the range, meaning you get hit by lunge attack, or you're too slow and the Kagura can just retaliate with DP.

-DP on reaction. Safer option with the reward being low if you don't have the necessary charge to followup. It's even easier to do this if you're not closer to him. Remember I said DP on reaction, he could go into stance and do nothing and you could mistakenly believe he'll attempt to followup.

 

If you try to challenge it with anything else you'll probably lose. That move has armor.

 

 

Our pressure/mixup

Please please please try to use j.236A or 22D > 6C > [4]6C/ (even blade super!) oki where you can. Learn the routes into j.236A, they're in the strategy guide. This way you won't have to worry so much about his DP, otherwise, you'll have to be real creative and quick about the mixup you use because most of our things will lose to it. 6A, followups into 6B, crossups, jump pressure, the works. If you use 5CC > charge cancel for instance, just be aware he can DP your incoming assault. It's just so easy for Kagura to do this.

 

 

His pressure/mixup

He has limited options up to his C gatlings and then they may opt to commit to a stance followup, which you can DP, but like I said they could just bait you. In other words, it could open up an escape route. Generally after knockdowns midscreen they'll go into B fireball oki. You can either let it hit you (It should blue beat but it may depend on how much they're prorated the combo), or you can roll backwards and then jump away. In the corner you'll have to delay tech (again may blue beat) or block and face the incoming mixup. He can only do 2A/5A > overhead. He can't gatling anything else into his normal overhead.

 

Kagura's damage output is real good, nothing to take lightly. Can get like 5k from overhead/command grab in the corner.

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Is there a safe way to bait his DP? I mean, everytime I hit 6A or 6B, i'll get DPed. Everytime.

 

Also, his DP will win against our backdash. I don't feel like we can apply any pressure on him, so how are we supposed to win this? He can pressure us pretty safely, and his damage output is incredibly high. 5k to 6k out of anything.

 

His pressure 5BB > fireball > 5BB > fireball is really annoying. How do you escape this? I tried jumping with no success, and he can do this until he decides to go for the command throw (that will catch you during the fireball, without making it a purple throw...)

 

Our DP D will win against his 5D-A, which they often use to end pressure.

 

The only way i found to win neutral is to guess he'll go for 2C and make it whiff. But you can't do it on reaction because on how fast it recovers (it looks slow but not really).

 

421D > 236D is still a good way to approach him though. It will win against his 6D-C.

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Note when you're going on the offensive it is very easy for Kagura to DP out of pressure where there are holes. To remedy this, I suggest not committing to 6B (Especially 5CC > 6B you're actually asking to get DP'd) or 6A. The only time where it may seem safe to opt for 6A is after you've made him block high, so for example, if you've used an IAD in neutral and caught him blocking with a j.CC, then you can use 6A. Instead of a DP Kagura will either get hit or block it, which is the safer option.

 

If you have caught onto Kagura while he is blocking low, opt for charge cancel pressure into kara throws or command grab. 5CC > CC may even be pretty cool to bait some DPs but otherwise it means the end of your pressure. If you feel you can't open him up, charge cancel and return to neutral if you want. You can find ways to hit him in neutral with stuff like 421D > 236S as you mentioned. It's easier to hit Kagura in neutral than if you were to pressure him I think, since he's gonna be committing himself to other things. If you want to bait his DPs, the only way is to probably use safe jump setups, so the corner > 214B > 2C > jump cancel C may work (cannot fully validate this although I did hear Kagura's DP is slower now, so you'll have to go to training mode). Corner 2C > 421A oki is ok, but remember he's blocking low so literally anything you do after may be unsafe.

 

Now with that pressure you listed, I would barrier. If you barrier you push yourself out of command grab range, although if he repeats that blockstring he'll be eating your barrier. Using barrier also makes it easier to retaliate with 421D (> 236D) if need be, since you'll get out of pressure that way.

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Just a tip here that was suggested to me, is that if Kagura likes to do his 'sword rush' (I forget the motion, but it's the one where he lunges across the screen and has projectile guardpoint) it can be beaten with jumpback or neutral jump falling j.C - you kinda just need to jump around a lot, but neutral becomes a lot more manageable once he can't just fly in and start doing stance nonsense at you.

 

Baiting his DP...doesn't seem that much different from baiting Inferno Divider?

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It is, because it's a flash kick, so anywhere there is even a 1f hole, he can DP on reaction on what you do, unlike inferno that needs to be buffed here and there "blindly"

 

I'll try the barrier block on his pressure, it might be the solution. Also the 2C okizeme, but i'll need to corner carry him first, which is hard when i can't open him up.

 

It looks like there is no miracle solution here, i'll have to be patient and wait for him to greed with 6D C or random 2Cs

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I can do a in depth analysis of the matchup because I have a Kagura buddy that I fight all the time and have been fighting for more than a year. Feel free to ask any question here and I will give you the solution. This matchup is actually even or maybe in her favor slightly if you have the endurance to lame the other player out and not feel bad about it.

The secret to winning is to give him zero respect because none of his mixups or pressure demand it. You can actually just jump out of all of his stance mixups for free. If you get hit randomly in neutral you are dead though. And that's Kagura.

Addressing things you talked about in your original post:

2A his wakeup after a low positioned air ender. His C flash kick got nerfed so you should be able to block before you get hit even though 2A's recovery got increased by 2 frames to 10 from 8.

IB the projectile and hit 5C or jump.

You can grab Kagura out of the startup of 5DA if you hadn't barriered whatever stance he may have used before. This is without IB. Don't need to commit to a DP at all. Hell, you can just jump out as well because the gaps in his pressure are enourmous. If you know the timing, you can actually delay a C DP just enough so that his 5DA super armor ends and you'll be able to hit him every time he commits.

You win neutral by making him commit to anything and then punishing since he has a ridiculous amount of recovery on everything. Just make sure you are prepared to punish things because if you are just slightly too late when you decide to run up after you see he whiffed a normal, you will get flash kicked.

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