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Kiba

[CP] Tsubaki vs Kokonoe

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Discuss the Kokonoe matchup here!

I'm not even sure how you should start off when the match begins.

It's not too bad for you to back off, and get charge, but at that same time you're letting her setup her stuff. However, it shouldn't be troublesome to get around considering we have [4]6D > 236D. Try not to charge for too long though because they can just dash and tag you with 3C (don't underestimate the range). If you see her dashing towards you just stop charging and engage in a different activity. If you opt to rush her down from the start you need to be wary that her j.A can beat you air to air UNLESS you use j.236A. She gets a full combo and setup from a j.A so be careful. Speaking of j.236A, it seems pretty useless to use the move in neutral, not much you're really achieving there. She doesn't need to rush to get in. Then there's her AA. It's really good, being head invulnerable from 4f until she stops charging (if they opt for it), and it can even hit behind her.

If you're pressuring her and she uses the teleport, occasionally our normals will autocorrect and tag her from behind, though of course if the normal whiffs, you've given her a free combo. I think I'd advise you to get as much experience against Kokonoe as possible because her pressure requires you to be attentive. You can poke her out of her overhead 6B if you have the reactions otherwise just block it, remember both hits are overheads. Some Kokonoe's will special cancel the overhead into the lightning pole when blocked, so if you try to interrupt it with a DP, you'll just get hit, and give her a free combo. You have two options against this; you can either block, or you can do the more risky option which is to IB the overhead and then micro dash 5A. It will hit her out of the startup of the pole (I have done this - just for confirmation). However if you're too slow, again you'll just get hit. Please remember her overhead is safe on block so you can't punish it even on IB. It's -2.

The main reason why I say you should be attentive is because she has stuff like 5B > 5C > Set gravity node > INSTANT OVERHEAD j.C and that will give her a full combo. It's difficult to react to and if you're paying attentive you should either poke her out when she gets the gravity node out, or get away. If you sit and block you will have to face mixup.

Her 5B can beat our 6B, so if you use something like 5B > 5C > 6B, be aware it can be beaten by 5B, since she's mid air from 4-9f. TGR & Ivysaur also found ways around her super fireball DD (214214A). 5C > 6B > 22D > get 3 hits from the fireball > dash 6C > into whatever. You take 589 from the 3 hits. You can't instant block or you'll take more hits from the fireball from the reduced pushback. 214214B takes too long to come down so you can do the same punish without taking the damage.

Alternatively, if you don't want to take any damage, 5C CH > 6C > 236236C > 236D > air ender works. Punishing it midscreen, you can just do dash 5B/5C CH > 6CC and you'll move forward enough to avoid it. You have to dash into it or you won't move out of the way in time. 2C CH > Blade Super also works. You have to do dash 2C if you don't IB, and the timing for that is pretty tight. Tsubaki's 3 options seem to be:

  • 1 charge: 5C CH > 6B > 22D > get hit > 6C > combo and eat 589 damage. Don't IB.
  • 50 meter: 2B CH > Blade Super > 6CC > combo stuff. Way easier on IB.
  • 50 meter, 1 charge: 5C > 6C > 236236C > 236D > IAD combo with air ender.



    Other points:

    • If you opt to back away and charge at the start of the match, try to make sure to have at least 2+ charge before getting in.
    • Charge is extremely important here. Not just for combos, but for getting around her setups and even the black hole super setup.
    • [4]6D > 236D is EXTREMELY useful in this matchup.
    • Look at her meter when she's combo'ing (or even pressuring) you in the corner. If it's going to 50% or if it's more, you should burst, unless you want to get hit by black hole super.
    • Her 3C can beat our 5B in neutral so try not to abuse 5B. 3C seems to be her only useful poke in neutral.
    • Her j.A will beat your aerials. Counter with j.236A.
    • Your 2C can be beat with j.2C.
    • Meaty 5A 5BB should make her block if she backdashes and CH her if she teleports.
    • Her 2A low profiles 5B so you have to be careful using it in midrange. A good example of a place not to use it at is after you block her 3C.
    • 3C is good in neutral if you want to call out a trap or ball summon.
    • Throw/Command Grab to punish her super is good because you will be invulnerable when the ball comes down.
    • You can use banana super to lock her down long enough so that she can't stop you from running past traps but don't get too greedy.

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Posting it here as well

Here we go

This is the best setup Kokonoe has. If she does the 22B setup you can just roll out of it easily. If she delays a little bit the Black hole, it's even easier to roll + DD out of it

You can buffer the DD during the roll, but you need to press D at the exact good frame. It's super hard to do tbh, probably a 1 or 2f tech, but if you manage to do it, she's free as fuck. You can OD + Install + KILL HER

For those who wonder, it's the only way to get out of this setup, except AH (which doesn't need a roll, neutral tech works fine). You can't roll + DP or anything else, you will get sucked in. The only reason the DD setup works is that she isn't affected by the vaccum effect during the animation of the distortion drive. Banana DD doesn't work, neither OD + anything

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Most common kokonoe's setup and ways to escape them.

Well, i don't see any other way to run away except with AH, which is not a viable solution anyway

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This matchup. I'm not even sure how you should start off when the match begins.

It's not too bad for you to back off, and get charge, but at that same time you're letting her setup her stuff. However, it shouldn't be troublesome to get around considering we have [4]6D > 236D. Try not to charge for too long though because they can just dash and tag you with 3C (don't underestimate the range). If you see her dashing towards you just stop charging and engage in a different activity. If you opt to rush her down from the start you need to be wary that her j.A can beat you air to air UNLESS you use j.236A. She gets a full combo and setup from a j.A so be careful. Speaking of j.236A, it seems pretty useless to use the move in neutral, not much you're really achieving there. She doesn't need to rush to get in. Then there's her AA. I've heard it's not that good, but it works for her, and again, another combo into a setup.

If you're pressuring her and she uses the teleport, occasionally our normals will autocorrect and tag her from behind, though of course if the normal whiffs, you've given her a free combo. I think I'd advise you to get as much experience against Kokonoe as possible because her pressure requires you to be attentive. You can poke her out of her overhead 6B if you have the reactions otherwise just block it, remember both hits are overheads. Some Kokonoe's will special cancel the overhead into the lightning pole when blocked, so if you try to interrupt it with a DP, you'll just get hit, and give her a free combo. You have two options against this; you can either block, or you can do the more risky option which is to IB the overhead and then micro dash 5A. It will hit her out of the startup of the pole (I have done this - just for confirmation). However if you're too slow, again you'll just get hit. Please remember her overhead is safe on block so you can't punish it even on IB. It's -2.

The main reason why I say you should be attentive is because she has stuff like 5B > 5C > Set gravity node > INSTANT OVERHEAD j.C and that will give her a full combo. It's difficult to react to and if you're paying attentive you should either poke her out when she gets the gravity node out, or get away. If you sit and block you will have to face mixup.

Her 5B can beat our 6B, so if you use something like 5B > 5C > 6B, be aware it can be beaten by 5B, since she's mid air from 4-9f.

Main points

  • [4]6D > 236D is EXTREMELY useful in this matchup.
  • Look at her meter when she's combo'ing (or even pressuring) you in the corner. If it's going to 50% or if it's more, you should burst, unless you want to get hit by black hole super.
  • Her 3C can beat our 5B in neutral so try not to abuse 5B. 3C seems to be her only useful poke in neutral.
  • Her j.A will beat your aerials. Counter with j.236A.
  • Your 2C can be beat with j.2C.

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I should probably emphasise that you should save the burst in this matchup. You want to use it when she's got you in a combo in the corner and has the opportunity for the black hole super.

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>Then there's her AA. I've heard it's not that good, but it works for her, and again, another combo into a setup.

Her AA is one of the best in the game and far far better than ours.

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>Then there's her AA. I've heard it's not that good, but it works for her, and again, another combo into a setup.

Her AA is one of the best in the game and far far better than ours.

Yeah; Head Invulnerable from frame four for... as long as she holds it? Really? Who thinks this stuff is okay? x.x

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the startup, the active frames, the recovery are all together exceptional, and it has a really good hitbox too. you might think that something like that doesn't hit crouchers, but it does. and it hits behind her too. or at least very close to her center so it can hit people behind her. it's one of her ridiculous moves, certainly not ' not that good'.

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certainly not ' not that good'.

I got it the first time man. I shouldn't have said anything.

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hmmm so i finally fought kokonoe and to be honest i think we stand a pretty good chance against her like what kiba said before having charges is very important in this match mainly i feel for getting in. the match seems to go back and forth for us here since kokonoe has no way to escape our pressure outside of burst or black hole honestly that seems to be the key to this match getting close because she has far more options then us mid to long range our [4]>6>D is great but her fireball is a real problem so i feel that we need to be far more aggressive in this fight.

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since kokonoe has no way to escape our pressure outside of burst or black hole

I take issue with this.

black hole

Especially with this.

Black hole shouldn't ever work to get out of your pressure, you run at her and punish. Super fireball on the other hand, will get her out of pressure, whether you like it or not, and I don't think there is anything we can do about it. Teleport has some ways of dealing with it, but it's also far from useless. Her backdash looks quite strong too and there's also counter assaults. If she has a graviton set and you manage to touch her, it's safe to say you're not going to be pressuring her, you probably lose pressure even if you go straight for an overhead because of the pull.

My approach in neutral has not been to try to get charge because if you let her set up her shit, that is bad. Same as mu, rachel, etc really I think. But what I will do is I'll get my charge and I WON'T USE IT in combos unless it's a kill.

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I take issue with this.

Especially with this.

Black hole shouldn't ever work to get out of your pressure, you run at her and punish. Super fireball on the other hand, will get her out of pressure, whether you like it or not, and I don't think there is anything we can do about it. Teleport has some ways of dealing with it, but it's also far from useless. Her backdash looks quite strong too and there's also counter assaults. If she has a graviton set and you manage to touch her, it's safe to say you're not going to be pressuring her, you probably lose pressure even if you go straight for an overhead because of the pull.

My approach in neutral has not been to try to get charge because if you let her set up her shit, that is bad. Same as mu, rachel, etc really I think. But what I will do is I'll get my charge and I WON'T USE IT in combos unless it's a kill.

i'm not saying it's not this is what i've seen while fighting her the fireball is good but in my experience i haven't had to much issue with it.

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midscreen is one thing, because you can hit her and get out of the way of the fireball. but in the corner, even if you block the whole thing and start to punish the fireball comes back down. I don't have the character so I can't test against it, but it's pretty annoying. if you back away, she can put out a graviton and subject you to invisible mixup from the super fireball etc.

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Not sure if Tsubaki has something like it (since i use Mu) but when I bait/block Kokonoe's DD fireball, i dash in and use normal that can gattle into a throw or an immediate throw. Either the throw animation saves you from that fireball or they tech the throw and push you out of the reach of it and the fireball disappears because it lands on the ground without any graviton

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probably the best thing tsubaki could do for that would be to 5b>6c>command throw. that is interesting. thanks.

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actually funny thing about the teleport when i was fighting the kokonoe player he used it on me and i 5b counter hit i'm not really sure how it works tho

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it's invuln 1-24 and 33 f total recovery.

it's like relius' twirl. which means it is not generally a legit wakeup option, but if you use it when they are close to you, in the corner, it puts you behind them, which might be a victory even if they get punished.

the distance is a set distance, if no gravitons. so you can stay back a distance on their wakeup and do a meaty and then something else to punish. but that doesn't mean you won't get punished if she does it when you try to use 6a.

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Meaty 5A 5BB should make her block if she backdashes and CH her if she teleports.

Her 2A low profiles 5B so you have to be careful using it in midrange. A good example of a place not to use it at is after you block her 3C.

CH AA 2C into C doesn't work on her sometimes?

3C is good in neutral if you want to call out a trap or ball summon.

Throw/Command Grab to punish her super is good because you will be invulnerable when the ball comes down.

You can use banana super to lock her down long enough so that she can't stop you from running past traps but don't get too greedy.

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Her 2A low profiles 5B so you have to be careful using it in midrange. A good example of a place not to use it at is after you block her 3C.

CH AA 2C into C doesn't work on her sometimes?

yeah there are a lot of characters where you need to be careful about 5b but this is especially one. (others would be lambda mu izayoi plat taokaka...)

I'm not sure if 2C>2CC is guaranteed on any character, I know I've seen it against others where if you hit 2c in the air 2cc will whiff regardless. This drives me crazy because if you get an ultra low air hit 2c I don't think there is any way to follow it up

I guess it would make sense that this is just the same as the 214d>2cc character specific problem or the 6cc>214B>2cc character specific problem..

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This is the 6cc>214B>2cc list

Doesn't:

HZ KG JN TE AM NO RC KO

214d>2cc works on kokonoe I believe so she falls in the ~1/3 of the cast that there are issues on but not the strictest of them.

coming realization that I have to keep this bit of character specificness in mind every time I antiair in a matchup..

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yeah there are a lot of characters where you need to be careful about 5b but this is especially one. (others would be lambda mu izayoi plat taokaka...)

The reason I brought it up specifically was because her 3C is -1 meaning it should be the end of her pressure but her doing dash 2A is kinda hard to stop on the ground? Any suggestions?

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The reason I brought it up specifically was because her 3C is -1 meaning it should be the end of her pressure but her doing dash 2A is kinda hard to stop on the ground? Any suggestions?

tsubaki has no ground tools against low profile besides 5a and 2a. This is why imo, so many matchups are ass.

Dash 5a or 2a, depending on distance. I think there should be some obvious distances where if they don't also dash you'll get hit, or if you don't do a 0-1 frame dash 5a you'll get hit.

3c is 2 hits though and I haven't gotten it down quite but ib should alleviate a lot....

The other option I'll use when i'm left at a distance with a minor advantage or disadvantage is just jumping, or whiff baiting. but I odn't know that either of those is a great option with the previously mentioned full retard antiair she has or the taokaka class 2a she hasssss

22B is also an option for a heavy damage counter, but it again depends on them pressing the button and also being out of range when they press it

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The reason I brought it up specifically was because her 3C is -1 meaning it should be the end of her pressure but her doing dash 2A is kinda hard to stop on the ground? Any suggestions?

I usually try to IB 3C then Dash 5A. If I'm out of dash 5A range I may jump in if I feel the player will be trying to do dash 2A. Thanks for your earlier points Huey. I've got them added to the first post.

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