[CP] Tsubaki vs Relius

[Kiba]

Discuss the Relius matchup here!

[BatousaiJ]

Is it me or did fighting Relius in Neutral become a nightmare in CP?

Once he has his wife out, he has safe poke options at nearly any point of the screen.

Especially worth noting is that jumping doll attack he does in the air which he can do repeatedly which can make anti airing with 2C just not really feasible in many cases.

His(5B?) the thing that looks like a mid range punch has pretty good range and speed, about the same as our 5B and once his wife is out he can just send her forward in that circular blade form and then get in fairly easily.

Air to air trades versus his multi-hitting A attack is also worth watching out for and he can anti-air fatal you with his 2C for a big damage combo if you're not careful in the air.

It feels like when he activate his wife at Neutral, it's very easy for him to get in and his pressure with JC seems fairly tight with multiple spots where he can DP/Burst bait with ease.

It's hard to get neutral charge since he has a lot of screen coverage, 46D > 236D is fairly useless as it'll just clip into the doll waiting to get CH.

I feel this is a more difficult match up compared to extend and I'm going to need a lot more games to start figuring out the right strategy against this match up but I had the most success when I managed to just stick to him like glue the whole match without even thinking about Neutral charging, using a DP here and there to shut down his doll use but then again, "don't let your opponent do anything" is a match up strategy that works against everyone so who knows.

Any thoughts?

[Errol]

he's always had super awesome super braindead neutral. the doll wheel attack is like our 236C from CS2 but amped up 3 levels. Get far back and wait for him to use it, then run through it and hit him. I find his new noel optic blast style poke pretty annoying. His 5b isn't about the same as our 5b, it outclasses it quite a bit, and his 2b is amazing too. His jumpins are all also amazing, and Relius has always had a really strong air game but it is even worse now with the jumping doll attack you mentioned (I do NOT remember this from EX, I think they sped it up a lot.)

His defense is quite strong now too and I think he can run oki that handles our DP pretty well even if some of them don't seem to.

Projectiles are difficult to use because of the doll.

Go full screen and try to bait him to waste doll meter, or attempt a doll wheel from too far away and use that as your chance to try to get in. You can get some charge here and you can use charge as bait to try to get them to mess up, but you def need to be prepared so you don't get clipped. Again, the new optic revolver thing is annoying here because he can threaten you really easily with it.

People always said to get in before he has the doll out but I have never found this to be the case in this matchup, not in EX, not here. Like in many matchups your options < their options at the start of the round. If you take a good amount of safe options it opens later rounds up to going aggressive right away.

My 2c.

[BatousaiJ]

Trying to stop him from getting his doll out at the beginning of the round is about as easy as stopping Platinum from getting her first item.

I.E. Bloody impossible.

I feel like while his pressure is pretty good and it's kind of like, "it's your turn so I guess I'll block now" in a lot of cases, I feel like it's not as tricky as some of the other characters to block. I've had a bit of success with just blocking everything until they run low on doll meter and then basically, it's my turn to press buttons.

But then again, blocking things on netplay can pose quite the challenge so who knows if it's even viable on netplay but it might be in offline scenarios.

Oh I forgot to mention that I managed to low profile his 5B with my 3C for a nice FC in neutral a few times but I'm not sure if that's just how those moves work out or I just caught him during selective frames.

[Errol]

You can't low profile anything with 3c. I think you just hit him out of startup or slided into him after his hitbox was gone. 3c as a poke like that can be pretty good though for sure.

Yeah, you're about blocking him, it's not as bad as other characters. His overhead is just as fast as ours in CP, but it's nonetheless a bit easier to see. he also has limitless potential to go for throws in his pressure. That's basically the same as EX.. I think it can be a lot harder this time around though... I'm not sure what it is, maybe his meter depletes slower, or something. But he can do some empty jump stuff or jump > airdash mixup that is hard.

One thing at least to note is to watch for him to Unsummon the doll during pressure, because that's a time to poke out.

Another thing to note is to watch for how he summons the doll when the doll is not out. If they try to summon the doll off 5b>6b? I think itwas, you've got a gap to DP, so that's something else to take advantage of.

[Naphiel]

Relius is a monster now.

His new 22A/B/C as well as his other various doll options ensure that you're not getting any charge from anything outside of charge cancels and knockdowns.

His 5B is better than ours. It's 2 frames faster to start up, active just as long and recovers faster. Not to mention he can use any Ignis command from it.

He doesn't have many air normals with good horizontal reach unless he's in the air long before you in which he can send Ignis at you. His 2C is really good for anti-airing all of Tsubaki's air normals and leads to big damage, so you have to be really careful with your jump ins. If you try to cross him up he can also use 4D which is really good for anti-airing things above him.

5B > 3C > 6D > J.B > 5B is an airtight blockstring. It's when he's convinced you to block this that he can start playing with you with empty jump throws and lows as well as low air dashes for tricky overheads. Never burst after 3C, as you can hold back after inputting your jump forward and 6D (which is done at the same time) and you'll bait bursts with it.

Two changes he got in this version really help him out. Off a lot of things midscreen and almost anything in the corner, he can OD and get almost a full Ignis gauge again to maintain his momentum. The other change is that with the addition of Gad Leis you still really have to respect his normals even when the doll is dead if he has 50 meter. Off 5B anywhere on screen he can get over 3.5k and kill enough time for Ignis to come back.

[NecroTheReaper]

Comin from the relius side (havnt had a lot of vs tsubaki exp) doll meter drains faster in cp, twice as fast actually. No bullshitting, Relius is beast this version lol. Still, his defenses are weak, and his fastest poke (5A) wiffs crouching. Gear super is a half-assed attempt to give him defense with its invul, but has awful range. However, seems like the issue is the doll here...

I dunno if tsubaki has any decent ranged air moves, but any physical property move can slap ignis out of just about anything. 2D and dance super are the only moves with full GP. The 22x series are good when used in tandem with ignis, but he has to either get in on you, or use 22x to slap you out of slapping the puppet.

Blocking Rel's mixup. Until he hits the ground, don't block low. Then block low the second he touches lol. If you keep an eye out for his overhead, its 26f and looks obvious. Low air dash j.B pressure can be beat by just about any decent anti air, but its all about getting respect to use it. He has a kinda fuzzy with deep j.B>dj.C but it only really means something in the corner. Also, watch out for crossup j.2D. It hits mid, but it doesn't take a lot to make it cross up or not, so it can be tough to see. He also has j.B crossup and late reverse air dash j.B crossup, and now you have most of what I use on people lol

Sorry if my info is inadequate for you btw.

[BatousaiJ]

Good info, keep it coming.

I was running a long set with Lich and it feels like with all the burst baiting options, it's almost better just to OD for charges instead but obviously, that can backfire heavily.

Note that you get a crap ton of charge if you charge during OD so even a double jump charge during OD will net you a significant amount.

The good thing about this is that you'll get around 3-5 charges depending on how much neutral charge you're able to get during OD and with that you can DP safer and have better options overall thanks to having those charges to mess around with which you otherwise wouldn't be able to get.

[Kiba]

Good stuff guys.

Only real minor thing I wanna add is that if a Relius player uses Val Tus (214C) in neutral, you can just hit her out of it with 5B. It's better to hit her rather than to try and jump over it, or worse, block it. Due to the difficulty of trying to challenge Relius in neutral, I prioritise rush down over charging.

Errol and BatousaiJ, I'm aware you guys said in the general thread that it's better to use 5B (or 5A > 5B) on a player's wakeup, but this is one of the exceptions where I may recommend using 5A 2-3 times on his wakeup, because of his twirl. 5A will whiff so you can quickly grab him, and there you go, 3.1 - 4k.

[NecroTheReaper]

Also, Tsubaki's wiff cancels really get through Relius' twirl, so you could possibly land a CH with one of your vest starters if they get twirl happy.

About slapping out of 214C, that's why I said it might be safer to use an air move, or even any move woth projectile inv, because he could 22C you out of 5B and if it CH's before your 5B pokes ignis, it -can- combo (doesn't necessarily do so), and even if it doesnt, I'm sure everyone has experienced 214C oki. Poking out of it is probably the best you could do, but they will eventually wise up if their way of getting in keeps getting slapped.

[Monarch]

So.. what approach has worked for you guys? Getting to him before he gets the doll out, or being patient and waiting for the puppet to come to you?

[Airk]

I don't really have any experience with this matchup in CP, but as far as I can tell, it hasn't changed too much from Extend except that it's really not safe to charge at full screen neutral because of Geara Lugia (22X, AKA The stupid blade thing that comes up from the ground.)  You really have to get on him before he can get too much initiative.  Once you're blocking a decent Relius, you are in for a rough time if they know what they're doing. At least, if my experience going a few rounds with Lich in Extend is any indicator.

 

As usual, the only way Tsubaki wins this matchup is if you don't let your opponent play, ever.  Fortunately, it's a little harder for Relius to slip away than it is for some characters.

[chzchan]

I just try doing what I see in MU videos and smack the doll with 5B and 22B as often as possible to deplete the meter and hopefully break the doll if my opponent is not careful.

[Errol]

this matchup is different from EX a bit, largely that it is just a bit harder.

 

most notably, if the doll is near you and you let him use val tus, he's just in on you. You can ib the 2nd hit and dp, but honestly, that is only good if their guard is down. (Really, there is no reason they can't just block till the third hit and keep you in blockstun, and they will).

 

my experience has always been that you're best off not trying to go in right away. his air normals, ground normals largely outclass tsubaki's. If you can get a bit of charge, that is good. But your main goal in neutral is / should always be to get in on him - it's just that you will have better odds getting in if you are more 'passive aggressive'. 

 

Most reliuses I play screw up using the doll in neutral in a way that lets me in. A big one is using the doll wheel - timing a dash to run through it right as the active frames and hitting relius in the face works way too much. Most of them are also very anti-airable if you know what they're going to do. his air to grounds are very strong, so you need to know how to AA well, but it can be done. Can be very risky though, because he has unlimited ability to delay his descent. 

 

the point of hitting the doll is not to drain doll meter (it doesn't), but to make the doll disappear. if you don't make the doll disappear when the doll is near you, you could get val tus'd, and now you have to block relius mixup. You can be hit trying to hit the doll by him just using 6d or whatever again, but it's better to risk that than to risk landing in +58 blockstun. 

 

if you ever block relius without the doll out, be prepared to DP.  He'll want to get the doll out, and if he cancels into 6b to try to make it safer to put the doll out (safe to 5a mash), you can dp there. 

 

etc.

[Airk]

Yeah, I was going to say - Relius isn't Carl;  Htiting the doll doesn't drain its meter.  Though it sortof does, indirectly, because it forces Relius to summon her again if he wants to use her, and THAT costs meter.

[chzchan]

Oh, so it doesn't drain the meter? Is that only Carl then?

Well I guess I have been fighting some pretty terrible Relius players because I would smack the doll and eventually the doll meter emptied and I would get a doll break. It was their lack of doll meter management skill that caused it to break and not me hitting it directly.

Whoops.

[Errol]

no, it doesn't drain the doll at all. Your goal is to get the doll to disappear so he can't val tus you. you generally can't react to val tus to hit the doll, it's too quick now. if you mash a button, he can often beat it by doing another 6d or something. The doll draws back between those attacks and makes it hard for you to poke it.

 

I haven't played this matchup much recently, but 5b is probably the best poke for hitting the doll. that or 5a. But even dash 5a, the doll will pull back enough to avoid it and hit you in the face if he does another move.  But no real reward, it's just a single hit. Whereas val tus goes into pressure which can go into a full combo.

 

the other thing is to try to get up and over the doll.

[chzchan]

After reading and thinking about it for a bit, using counter assaults in this matchup is a really good way of getting the doll to go away. It only has superarmor during that distortion, right? Or actually how does Ignis superarmor work?

[Airk]

More than just the Distortion has super armor, but the info on the wiki is...incomplete.

 

I'm pretty sure Val Tuus has super armor until it goes active, and the wiki indicates that 2D does as well.   I don't know if any of her moves has super armor that lasts into the active frames except for the DD. 

 

The danger of using counter assaults here is that if you counter assault and hit the doll and NOT Relius, he can punch you in the face for a huge combo afterwards.   Counterassault in this matchup is a lot like counterassault in the Rachel and Carl matchups, where you need to make super sure that you are CAing something that will hit the CHARACTER and not just their autonomous buddy.  As a result, it's super easy for him to bait and punish CA if you're not paying attention.  Be wary.

[TheGreatReptar]

Oh hey, I never posted what I learned from playing Lich at CEO here

 

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

[Airk]

Because he auto-blocks it for free?

[chzchan]

More than just the Distortion has super armor, but the info on the wiki is...incomplete.

 

I'm pretty sure Val Tuus has super armor until it goes active, and the wiki indicates that 2D does as well.   I don't know if any of her moves has super armor that lasts into the active frames except for the DD. 

 

The danger of using counter assaults here is that if you counter assault and hit the doll and NOT Relius, he can punch you in the face for a huge combo afterwards.   Counterassault in this matchup is a lot like counterassault in the Rachel and Carl matchups, where you need to make super sure that you are CAing something that will hit the CHARACTER and not just their autonomous buddy.  As a result, it's super easy for him to bait and punish CA if you're not paying attention.  Be wary.

 

Ah I was more thinking along the lines of if you hit both of them at the same time by looking for a good opening when he isn't jumping over you. It knocks him away and puts the doll away. Extra points if you forced the doll away after blocking a bunch of mixups which leaves his meter almost empty when the doll disappears.

 

And yeah the wiki being incomplete is why I still don't quite understand how the superarmor works. I guess I'll just have to get a feel for it eventually or pick up Relius for a bit just for the sake of bettering my one and only Tsubaki.

 

 

Oh hey, I never posted what I learned from playing Lich at CEO here

 

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

Don't burst after 3C

 

It's jump cancellable, right? Well it won't be in 2.0 if they don't roll back that change, but yeah knowing jump cancellable moves helps when deciding when to burst, especially if your opponent has less than 50 meter.

 

Actually, now that I have looked over other characters' frame data a bit more, low attacks that are jump cancellable with startup as fast as Relius's 3C are actually pretty rare.

[Errol]

val tus does NOT have super armor, not at all. Whenever possible, you want to avoid being hit by or blocking this move. Most important thing in neutral, easily. learning how to safely dismiss the doll is pretty critical.

[Airk]

Really? I stand corrected, though I could've sworn it did.  You're definitely right that you don't want to be touched by that move though.

[Myoro]

All of Ignis' moves have projectile armor, but only Duo bios, Tedo, Alter of the Puppeteer, and 2D can withstand physical attacks.

 

As a little bit of advice, not only should you have a way to safely deal with Ignis, but also an opportunistic Relius who is using Ignis as a decoy to bypass your neutral.