[CP] Tsubaki vs Tager

[Kiba]

:3

Fireballs!

[Monarch]

Tager is my most feared and hated match-up, but an easy one provided you know what to do. When the match first starts, quickly air backdash and get a few charges prepared. I'll say it now, charging Tager "gung-ho" style will get you killed horribly. It's best to either wait for two things. A.) Tager gets impatient and start jump attacking an effort to get close to you, or B.) Tager goes to charging his magnetism gauge. The response to A would be to timely attack him with your anti-air (2C-2C) when he's in mid-air, then punish with a BnB of your choice. For scenario B, now would be a great time to rush him while he's vulnerable charging. After you're done punishing, rinse and repeat the strategy. If he starts trying to close the distance with "Sledge Hammer", punish this with [4]6D > 236D (land projectile then D version of Sanctus Aequum). One last thing, try NOT to get magnetised. If you're in a situation where he picks you up with Gadget Finger, I advise you, NEVER attack on wake up. He'll whiff it everytime

[Airk]

If you're in a situation where he picks you up with Gadget Finger, I advise you, NEVER attack on wake up. He'll whiff it everytime

Really? This represents a pretty significant departure from how things used to work, where it was really important to represent the DP occasionally. Because in a nutshell, Tager's options after GF are:

5A - stuffs non-invulnerable reversals, puts you right back into an unfortunate situation (i.e. 'getting mixed up') if you choose to block, catches jump outs in startup. Loses to DPs, does not catch backdashes.

5C - catches backdashes, sets you up for mixup/pressure if you choose to block, can be air barriered if you jump out. loses to mashing jab/throw on wakeup and to DPs.

Backdash - beats DPs, 'loses' to just about everything else because you get away. Blocking does pretty much the same thing, except the situation afterwards is a little bit different.

360 - clobbers you for blocking, beats jabs, loses to DP and jump outs. A version (and 720) will catch backdashes if held, B version whiffs on backdashes (bad!).

Atomic Collider - basically only used to call out a jump out, loses to everything else, so most Tagers will just opt for 5A instead unless they feel like they have a really strong read.

Magnatech Wheel - a really strong option that beats just about everything except just blocking.

So it breaks down to:

Options that beat jump outs.

Options that beat the DP.

Options that beat backdashes.

If you NEVER DP, Tager never has to use the options that beat it, so the guessing game shifts in his favor. It's 'generally' safer to DP if you have multiple charges, even with the changes to j.236D>j.214, and if you have 2 charges AND 50 meter, there's almost no reason not to DP. (Unless he has 50 heat, in which case watch out for MTW. And if he has 100, you basically just need to pray. :P) Overall, even if he has 50 heat, it could be argued that getting hit by MTW is less bad than being hit by 720 (which ruins you for blocking) but far more Tager players will go for GF -> MTW because it beats so much stuff...

But anyway, that was a super longwinded way of saying that I think it's still important to represent the DP, ESPECIALLY now that he can't just sledge it for free.

[Monarch]

Ran out of room, so I couldn't elaborate. But yes, you are correct. The problem being, if he guards it you're technically done for considering A.) You're magnetised, and B.) He pretty much has free combo by the time you even finish reaching the ground. Wait, REALLY?! DP can beat his 360 grab!? Regardless, I never looked at it like that. DP'ing is 50/50 really, but still better than retreating or jabbing.

[Kiba]

Frost monarch is right. At the start of the match, back away and nab some charge.

It will be nice to throw some fireballs (preferably the D version) for neutral control. If he tries to sledge through it, you can 22B him on reaction and get your 3.5k (followup with 6CC > 214B > 2CC > IAD combo into air ender). If he goes for a charge you can 3CC FC him but it's riskier to do considering when you shoot the fireball you're gonna be waiting to see what the Tager does rather then dash forward (unless they are full screen away).

When it comes to blockstrings, I have them listed in the strategy guide but these are what I use against Tager:

- 5B > 22D (sometimes fully charged)

- 5B > IAD crossover j.B (if j.B hits, followup with 5A > combo, if not, followup with 5A and retreat)

- 5B > 6B (only when using 5B from max range, just to keep him honest in blocking low)

ofc I don't use these blockstrings if I'm magnetised or within 360 range.

[Airk]

Ran out of room, so I couldn't elaborate. But yes, you are correct. The problem being, if he guards it you're technically done for considering A.) You're magnetised, and B.) He pretty much has free combo by the time you even finish reaching the ground. Wait, REALLY?! DP can beat his 360 grab!? Regardless, I never looked at it like that. DP'ing is 50/50 really, but still better than retreating or jabbing.

Sure, it's a gamble, but DPing on wakeup is a gamble against anyone, but you need to do it occasionally to keep people honest.

And yeah, it beats the 360. Beats the 720 too. DP has outrageous active frames, and by the time the invulnerability wears off, you're airborne and can't be grabbed.

Sounds like this matchup hasn't really changed that much except that now we're chucking fireballs to try to create openings instead of trying to space unblockables to create openings.

[Monarch]

Do we have anything that can get through sledge hammer? I hate getting my banana super sleged through.

[Kiba]

No we don't, and there is no reason to use blade super in this MU. Please save the meter for something more useful.

[Monarch]

Thought I could bait a fatal counter.. guess not. Also, how do you escape the "Gadget Finger > RC > Air Grab" gimmick? I encounter it a lot.

[Daedron]

I take it you're talking about GF > RC > j.360C  purple > tech > j.360C?

 

If so I'm sure you can just start mashing jab at that point and hit him out of it as it has no invul. Not sure if j.214A(whiff) works but if it does then that is probably your best bet as it places you in the best spot for a punish.

[Airk]

Or maybe he means "Gadget Flinger" where they RC gadget finger and you kinda float around all weird and can either be Atomic Collidered, or they can let you land right into a 360?

 

Does this still work?  I never did figure out WTF to do about that, but at least Tager should have less meter this time. (No more "I use 50 meter to mix you up and regain 40 in the subsequent combo")

[Monarch]

Something I was thinking about is leading me to ask, is timing out Tager to our advantage?

[Airk]

Depends on the situation? :P  Certainly, a large part of this matchup is getting a life lead and forcing him to do dumb stuff to come to you, but if you just try to run away for most of the match, it actually makes his life a little bit EASIER, because he stops having to worry about you doing something offensive. 

 

If you see a timeout 10-15 seconds away, take it, but I wouldn't play the match with that as a goal.

[Kiba]

This I how I typically play the matchup. Online's the best. I don't think the way I used the blade super for oki is recommended but I'll do some tests.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/baf0/c/4191975

I play against Tager at 7:49:42, 7:56:57, 8:05:38, 8:13:37

 

Threaten him with 5B pokes, with occasional 22D to keep him honest in blocking a little.

Use j.236A > j.214A air enders to get breathing space and time to charge a little more if necessary, otherwise you can do what you want.

Throw fireballs, and make him block or sledge. Counter sledge with 22B or 5B > 6C if he goes for the hammer.

If he super jumps, running underneath or air grabs are the best options.

Try not to whiff normals, lol.

[Monarch]

Oh really? So we can guard sledge and punish if he goes for hammer?

[Airk]

Well,  Hammer is super minus, but I don't really know why most Tager players would use it on block...

[Kiba]

They go for the hammer to catch you off guard. If you block sledge and they go for hammer, I normally DP.

 

If they're using sledge in neutral I go for CH 5C / 22B.

[Kiba]

Tager can 360A 5B>6B but that doesn't mean you shouldn't/can't use it. You can do literally any other cancel option off of 5B (except 6C) and make it a tight frametrap, or jump away relatively safely. Pop Tager in the mouth a few times with slightly delayed 5CC (or 5C>5CC>OS 6C/5D) confirm combos and he's going to stop. 

 

You're looking at an RPS situation that's not exactly to your opponent's advantage considering the number of options you have. You're going to have to condition Tager to stop somehow, or you're not going to win. Tager's 360ing? Frametrap. 360ing the frametrap? Learn to frametrap better. Mashes everytime you 6A? Keep frametrapping until he learns. He stopped? Do things but throw some frametraps in too to make sure they respect you still and are scared to make the guess. Trying to play a poking game on him is silly since Tsubaki's pokes are mediocre and converting off of them can be hard at max range anyway.  You should probably hang back at the start of a round and build charge just to skew risk/reward in your favor, but I really don't like the idea of playing super passively in any matchup.

 

The problem with using 5C against Tager is if he IBs it, you have no safe way to get out of that situation unless you RC (or DP lol). (This is assuming you're going for a followup, otherwise charge cancel is viable but only for a certain amount of frames)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIClPvC-Qoo&t=3m58s

 

I agree with the conditioning behind it, but I don't feel it's effective with 6A because it's slow. It gives more time for Tager to retaliate with a 360/720.

 

 

As for Tager I just do lots of 5B > 6C because that is what I see other Tsubaki players do even though I don't really know how truly safe it is. I have also tried doing a lot of multi jump attack pressure using j.D in between jumping attacks to extend pressure while you are in the air so you can be 360'd. It catches Tager players pretty often if they think you're going to hop to the ground and you j.D and stay in the air for a bit longer than they expected. I rarely see then using atomic collider while in pressure so you should be safe maybe.

 

If it's blocked it's fine but you can be 360/720'd out of startup, and what makes it worse is 6C moves you forward.

 

I agree that playing too passively isn't the way.

[chzchan]

Not sure if it is the smartest thing to do, but using 22B a lot sort of helps.

I did a lot of 5B/C > 6C one round against a pretty great Jamaican Tager and I caught him trying to 360 me after an IB in the second round expecting me to take the step forward from 6C and I got a delicious CH 22B instead by slightly delaying it.

Or maybe he means "Gadget Flinger" where they RC gadget finger and you kinda float around all weird and can either be Atomic Collidered, or they can let you land right into a 360?

Does this still work? I never did figure out WTF to do about that, but at least Tager should have less meter this time. (No more "I use 50 meter to mix you up and regain 40 in the subsequent combo")

You legit cannot do anything about it so you just don't let it happen. You are at their mercy if they happen to pull it off because you cannot tech out of it so long as they science you correctly to orbit them.

I had a pretty good Tager at Anime Expo do that to me and a few of my friends and I laughed heartily even though I was crying on the inside. It isn't a Tsubaki specific problem though.

I've always wondered if it was possible to time people out if you have a health lead as Tager by doing that trick if you are truly skilled enough. It is just so dirty. You can't even burst out of it.

[Kiba]

Yeah it's part of the conditioning.

 

There isn't anything exactly 'wrong' to do against Tager unless you're being extremely wild.

[Kiba]

A friend of mine gave me some advice. I'm gonna leave this here as a reminder and because I found it very helpful. Against Tager, you're never really trying to get in, you just want to keep him at a point where he takes a risk by over committing, which in his case is trying to poke or jump. Normally if he whiffs something when we're out of range there's an opportunity to take advantage of that opening, but ofc it depends on the normal. 6A and 6C are notable choices, but his 5D and 5C will be extremely difficult to whiff punish so it's not recommended to challenge those.

 

If Tager is walking forward he can only try to poke or use a special, so I mean, you'll never see him walk and 360/720 you lol. You can try to bait out his pokes by using dash barrier, and he if he sledges or uses 2D you should be able to punish it so long as you haven't over committed i.e charging. If he jumps that's yet another opening so long as he doesn't j.2C you or use OD. Tager has one shot with spark bolt in which case you may be less inclined to poke him, but you still have the option of dash barrier.

 

If he does keep walking forward you can just jab him with 5B, but if you block any of his pokes you don't lose anything. Just be wary of his special followups, especially the drives which could pose a problem if you're too close.

[Airk]

but if you block any of his pokes you don't lose anything.

I don't think this is strictly true; Blocking 5D, for example, means you are magnetized, which makes things much tricker.

Just be wary of his special followups, especially the drives which could pose a problem if you're too close.

What special followups? Other than Sledge->Hammer?

[Kiba]

Well I'm more talking about his normals: 5A, 5C, 5B...etc. If he does catch you with 5D he still has to take risks in trying to approach. If you're magnetised and he has Spark Bolt, then that's a problem.

With followups I just meant his gatlings (should've re worded that), so stuff into AC, drives and sledge are the options I'm referring to.

[Airk]

ah, okay, slightly confusing terminology, but I gotcha.

[Mucky]

If Tager is walking forward he can only try to poke or use a special, so I mean, you'll never see him walk and 360/720 you lol.

 

I'd be careful with assumptions like this. Walking 720, sure, but walking 360A is pretty legit with magnetism.