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Sakaku

[CP] Rachel vs. Jin

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Discuss the Jin matchup here.

If Jin has 25 meter, always make sure to block high after 6B until he lands, his new move j.214D allows him to do a relatively slow overhead as long as he is airborne.

Don't summon carelessly if he is sitting at 25 meter, as he can do a fullscreen D icecar to punish. Also, if you see it coming, make sure to block low. He can now manually add his 2nd hit, but it doesn't really seem to matter much. You can punish both with 5B and there is no gap inbetween the hits. Just time your 5B for when you'd punish the first hit. If he is going for his follow-up you'll automatically block it, still being able to punish with 5B.

Apparently his 2C is a much better anti air now. A mistimed fullscreen 236A punish can hurt.

The only ice swords he is able to do now are his horizontal ones (being 236A and j.236A), with the exception being his j.236D, shooting at about the same arc as his old j.236A. (Reference)

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I am having a pretty hard time with this matchup so far. Jin just has so many good moves now. 5C is so crazy good now and 2D dominates the space Rachel is usually strong at.

I am completely unable to zone jin effectively. I usually just end up getting hit by them just going in with airdash j.C or 2D after a couple seconds. Even when he stays away one random ice sword hit can screw over all of your setups. When he has 50 heat you can't really do anything safely from full screen.

I do alright when I can get in on him. He has good reversals but a baited C DP is free 5C fatal so that isn't so bad. D DP is a lot harder to deal with/punish but Jin has so many amazing options with meter that this isn't really the biggest of your problems. One of the problems with going in on Jin is that a lot of the time he can just press 5C and get a free combo from it anti airing or beating out whatever you are doing.

My Rachel is still pretty bad so I am not able to finish all of my combos in oki so getting that down will help a ton in this matchup but it still seems pretty hard. Neutral is really difficult and once he gets in it can be hard to get him off unless you burn meter to counter assault. Anyone had any success against him?

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Jin is just a solid character overall. All you can do is play solid yourself.

Try not to pigeonhole yourself into a static playstyle against Jin.

The only sure answers I have are all basics. Wait for overhead. Make him commit to reversals. Catch him trying to zone with swords, etc.

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Has his jump been altered at all? I never had so many issues with jump happy Jin players before and I'm not having the issue with any other characters being used in a jump happy manner.

EDIT: Forget it, I think I was just frustrated by his air normals when I posted it. I figured out how to get around jump happy Jins (for the most part).

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Does anyone know any jin moves to look out for that rachel can punish? this matchup is absolutely killing me right now.

 

the wolfhead move, his 2d, jin players can sit at a very comfortable perfect distance and keep spamming these and I have a hard time dealing with this. as I have no normals long enough to punish or specials fast enough. if I try to run in after the wolfhead i just get wolfhead'd again.

 

his ice car/sled move...is this punishable?

 

And i cant tell but its either is 6c or his 2c keeps catching me when i try to jump out (seems to be air unblockable). Especially after a blockstring he will dash towards me to follow up and do it. i will try to jump out and it gets me. but if I dont jump away he can just run up and reset his pressure...

 

extremely frustrating please help if you are a rachel player who can deal with this matchup.

 

thank you

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5d is -9 on normal block and -4 if he dash cancels.  2d is +3 so if you IB its neutral and you can find a way to get out or do something else.  Every move you mentioned is pretty punishable, you just need to take advantage of your defensive options, like IB, Barrier IB, and what not . Ice car is pretty punishable, you can dash 5a it for a pretty solid punish and if he does the second hit, its' easier to punish. 

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At further distances, you can get away with sticking out a 2a after instant blocking Jin's 2d pretty often.

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I meant more of a medium range. If you are too close you will get stuffed so you need to respect even on IB.

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...by what? Jin has options on ib, you have to call out what he does, but you shouldn't get stuffed at close range. 

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Just speaking from my personal experience. It may have been a combination of netplay and the distances at which you want to use 2a/5a which made me feel that way.

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it's the same as 6b, the difference is distance. dash 5a will beat whatever if you are in range.  the biggest issue is that he can outrange you with 5c, he can jump, backdash, etc. 5c is hard to beat.

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^it is, and it is really good in neutral too, along with great synergy with his other attacks. it is one of his most dangerous moves if not the most dangerous.

 

without pumpkin out this matchup has to be tread carefully at midrange because rachel can't just throw moves or move around due to her airbag clothes. sometimes just holding 4 is best. screws with 5c, 2d and 2a spacings which can get you out when combined with ib.

 

you must ib: 6b, 2d to risk an escape, the rest can be barriered mostly, but these moves have no true options, only + frames.

 

6a most jump ins, ib 236x and you should be fine, watch for sneak 214d.

 

he's not hard, it's his -options- and consistent damage that makes this difficult. you're kinda playing rps in his favor midrange, and your favor further away. up close it either's game. midrange is most commonly played though because it is easy for jin to get here in this matchup,which makes this matchup slightly jin's favor.

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Thank you for all the responses.

 

really quick can we clarify what we mean by something being -9, -4, or +3 on block? does jin's 5d being -9 on normal block mean hes at a 9 frame advantage on me if i block it normally? or is it the other way around?

 

really 6a most jumpins? that jumpin that keeps getting me, the slash is so huge i didnt think it would win the exchange so i would always just block and eat the blocksting to follow. I will give it a try.

 

being a new player im not all that used to instablocking. Im uncomfortable with timing my guard with the enemy attack i feel like i will just end up taking damage if i dont react fast enough. or is there something i dont know about this technique?

 

2d really catches me so often im not used to how big the hitbox is i feel safe and then all the sudden the huge ice sword comes up. if i block it, am i free to move around after or try to retaliate? or am i in danger for all the frames its visible? lets say i block 2d at the exact range so that the entire giant ice sword is right on me. I dont feel close enough for 5a/2a to reach, do i have time to dash 5a?

 

the ice sled being punishable, does that include the meter using version? lets say i block the ice sled,

 

what is rps? sorry would be the first ive heard of that.

 

i really appreciate all your help. rachel can be so frustrating to play for someone at my level. this jin player and I have about the same amount of overall gameplay experience but I put hours and hours more work into rachel than he does jin learning combos and blockstrings and it looks like hes confirming everything so easily and just having an easier time overall while i pull my hair out with how difficult the learning curve is for this char. Rachel is my fav char though so I really want to make this work and will put the extra time in if i have to.

 

let me go over one last thing that is frustrating me like crazy. this isnt necessarily related to jin. but because my opponent plays jin its who damages me when i mess up.

i put a lot of hours into learning the blockstring:

 

5a/5b 9 2ad jb 5b - from what i figure it seems to be geared towards punishing a low block with overhead.

and

5a/5b 9 2ad jb (use second jump before landing) jb ja jc 5b...this seems to be meant to continue pressure if they block the above string properly..? i think?

 

heres my problem. this jin player, blocks low ALOT. or blocks low when hes unsure where to block. i dont really see me getting a good punish off of 4b, especially with dangerous startup it has. and because we are both low level he pokes out of my strings constantly so is very comfortable staying low and poking.

 

so i incorporated that blockstring to punish him. he caught on to it of course, and started to block higher just for that string. but as long as he blocks low after the first jb is properly blocked i go RIGHT OVER him.

heres what i dont get: why would you ever block high after the first jb? if I land, he doesnt get punished for blocking low...land > 5b certainly doesnt overhead him and land 2b is being blocked properly. if I jb again to continue the string, i go right over him. Isn't this a win win situation? with that being said, why would i ever do the second blockstring that uses the second jump? Yet I see it all the time in high level matches. Can someone help straighten out my rachel block string theory here?

 

Thank you!

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replies inside.

Thank you for all the responses.

 

you're welcome.

 

really quick can we clarify what we mean by something being -9, -4, or +3 on block? does jin's 5d being -9 on normal block mean hes at a 9 frame advantage on me if i block it normally? or is it the other way around?

it determines how fast you can act before your foe. the foe being -3 for example wil allow you to act 3 frames before your foe, if you did a move and are at +3, you still have the same advantage. likewise if you are -3 the foe can act 3 fraes before you. knowing this can give you a basic understanding in moves, but there are many variables to character's specific moves and their plus frames as well as who can punish what. this is simply called frame advantage.

there is also something called static difference. it basically means that if the move used is the last one in that particular combo or block string, whatever frame advantage on that move is final. most specials in fighting games follow this rule unless it can be cancelled into another move. some normals like jin 6b and 2d are like this unless rapid cancelled. so jin 2d is +3 and due to all it's hitboxes being consistent, it will always be +3 unless you block the move differently than normal.

 

really 6a most jumpins? that jumpin that keeps getting me, the slash is so huge i didnt think it would win the exchange so i would always just block and eat the blocksting to follow. I will give it a try.

 

this is the only move yo should be wary of once he jumps because it hits deep into rachel's hurtbox. you have to do 6a sort of early against this, backdash it or just block it. once in range he has to commit to it since it hits mostly vertically, and any of his other attacks are beaten by 6a. the earlier the better, he cant really bait a ike some other characters, he can only double jump to bait which really hurts his momentum.

 

being a new player im not all that used to instablocking. Im uncomfortable with timing my guard with the enemy attack i feel like i will just end up taking damage if i dont react fast enough. or is there something i dont know about this technique?

practice makes perfect, also no pain, no gain. you have to train yourself to not be scared, basically. beside psychological stuff, the best way is to practice against that player or character multiple times, and focus solely on instant block.

remember you have 8 frames which is approximately 8/60th of a second to press 4 to ib. so you have a decent window of oppurtunity. dont mash 4 even though rachel backdash is pretty good, it will not help in the long run. get used to the rhythm of the attacks. most importantly know what to ib. for jin, 6b and 2d if not ib'd can be looped... forever.

the absolute best way; training mode, 100 cpu, try to ib. no questions asked.

 

2d really catches me so often im not used to how big the hitbox is i feel safe and then all the sudden the huge ice sword comes up. if i block it, am i free to move around after or try to retaliate? or am i in danger for all the frames its visible? lets say i block 2d at the exact range so that the entire giant ice sword is right on me. I dont feel close enough for 5a/2a to reach, do i have time to dash 5a?

you MUST ib this to escape. if you do not, you are at the mercy of his 5c. no matter where you block it, it will always be a certain amount of static difference because of it's beam-like nature (certain means; no difference on normal block, -one for you on barrier block,  +3 for you on instant block, and +2 on instabarrier block, not including the arial frames here). so if you ib, feel free to take more risk, though keep in mind that jin does stil outrange you. no matter what you usually want to dash in after ib 2d and try a 5b. or you can backdash.

 

the ice sled being punishable, does that include the meter using version? lets say i block the ice sled,

completely. ib the second hit and dash 5b. if he doesnt do the second hit you have enough time to visually confirm this and still get a punish. sometimes, just sometimes you will be out of range for even dash 5b. 6b immediately, or you may have to ib the next perfectly spaced car. EX ice car is always punishable by dash 5b no matter what.

 

what is rps? sorry would be the first ive heard of that.

rock paper scissors. I assume you've played before? basically rock beats scissors but not paper, paper beats rock but not scissors, and scissors beats paper but not rock. two foes must guess the other's option on the count of 3. minus the count of 3 part, this basically means both players must make the right decision in that scenario or be gutted mercilessly.

 

i really appreciate all your help. rachel can be so frustrating to play for someone at my level. this jin player and I have about the same amount of overall gameplay experience but I put hours and hours more work into rachel than he does jin learning combos and blockstrings and it looks like hes confirming everything so easily and just having an easier time overall while i pull my hair out with how difficult the learning curve is for this char. Rachel is my fav char though so I really want to make this work and will put the extra time in if i have to.

at the highest level, rachel is top tier cureently for many reasons that have alot to do with offense. but you must learn a LOT. it is simply the nature of the character, but it is extremely rewarding in the end.

 

let me go over one last thing that is frustrating me like crazy. this isnt necessarily related to jin. but because my opponent plays jin its who damages me when i mess up.

i put a lot of hours into learning the blockstring:

 

5a/5b 9 2ad jb 5b - from what i figure it seems to be geared towards punishing a low block with overhead.

and

5a/5b 9 2ad jb (use second jump before landing) jb ja jc 5b...this seems to be meant to continue pressure if they block the above string properly..? i think?

 

correct.

 

heres my problem. this jin player, blocks low ALOT. or blocks low when hes unsure where to block. i dont really see me getting a good punish off of 4b, especially with dangerous startup it has. and because we are both low level he pokes out of my strings constantly so is very comfortable staying low and poking.

 

so i incorporated that blockstring to punish him. he caught on to it of course, and started to block higher just for that string. but as long as he blocks low after the first jb is properly blocked i go RIGHT OVER him.

heres what i dont get: why would you ever block high after the first jb? if I land, he doesnt get punished for blocking low...land > 5b certainly doesnt overhead him and land 2b is being blocked properly. if I jb again to continue the string, i go right over him. Isn't this a win win situation? with that being said, why would i ever do the second blockstring that uses the second jump? Yet I see it all the time in high level matches. Can someone help straighten out my rachel block string theory here?

 

the second jb should not go over him if it is done immediately after the first jb in this string on a BLOCKING foe. if he is not blocking, it will indeed fly over his head. so you must confirm if the first ja jb hit him, and if it did, 5b and continue the combo. if it didn't hit, double jump jb etc will punish him for blocking low and give you a stringer combo length to boot.

utilizing the second jb like this is called a fuzzy guard. the game recognizes the overhead hit and even if the foe is crouching after recently blocking an overhead attack, he will still have a STANDIDNG hitbox until AFTER BLOCKSTUN. this is extremely important and is why possibly some of your attempts missed. they must still be blocking by the time you hit the second djb. if it hits him he will be forced to stand and the rest of the hits are filler enough for you to get down and 5b. if he block the fuzzy, he will still be forced to block and the filler still gives you an airtight string to get down, 5b, and possibly do that string again with wind, or 5b 2b or whatever. you can basically call fuzzy guard a double overhead setup, or double 50/50 in that the foe has to guess, again, which option you are going to use, and cannot do anything about it.

 

one of the reasons rachel is so strong is because of this. two of the fastest overhead and low in the game with the option for still doing the fuzzy from the overhead. the foe cannot escape this setup without a dp, in which case they must ib 5a if you defide to use that instead  of 5b; they can counter assault but this can be baited, or they can avoid the situation altogether, but that isn't exactly easy given all the tools rachel is blessed with besides this.

Thank you!

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Thank you for the frame info. I guess its confusing because usually its worded exactly like that. jin's 5d is -9 on block. but its not specified for who. -9 for jin or for me? Im going to assume the statement means when jin 5d's and I block I have a 9 frame advantage to act.

 

Thank you for the instablock tip, I will give the training advice you gave a try.

 

Good to know the icecar is punishible I will start making sure to attempt that once i get used to blocking it low. right now it still catches me during summons and such. often times he goes right under my lobelia and im really in trouble.

 

the blockstring stuff you told me is extremely valuable to know. I think the reason I keep going over is because im actually getting the overhead hit and doing the second jb anyways! If the overhead lands, they stay crouched and have hitstun right? I will pay more attention now that I have much better understanding of the theory. Let me make sure I get it though. IF j2ad jb is blocked properly it means that my opponent was doing a standing guard and it also means that due to the fuzzy guard (which thank you for that info) even if they try to block low after, they will STILL have a standing guard hitbox until the end of the string? (second jb ja jc). This means that there should be no hits, particularly, overhead hits, after that point it should all be blocked unless the opponent actually STOPS blocking. right? Im only asking this because you said "if it didn't hit, double jump jb etc will punish him for blocking low and give you a stringer combo length to boot". how can the double jump jb punish if it forces them to have standing hitbox? if it didnt hit doesn't that mean it was blocked?

what exactly causes fuzzy guard anyways? is it because they are still in blockstun and i am already doing my next it before they can change to crouching?

 

I'm curious if I poke out with lets say 2a and it hits at max distance just at the tip of the cat tail, what are some good things to confirm that into? especially if jin is crouching? i feel like im pretty limited from there.

i can maybe do more 2aa 2b 6b? thats all i can gatling into anyways. I can't follow that up with something like 2b 6b 9 j3db > combo because the jb will whiff wont it? huge hole in my pressure game right. I could lobel i guess?

 

thank you again for helping!

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Just cause the opponents hitbox is standing, it doesn't mean they're still blocking.  This is because j.b, jc, j.b still has a small gap, so if someone stops blocking it they'll get hit.  Fuzzy guards work often because of how standing and crouching is programmed.  From my knowledge, if someone blocks high and then blocks low, for a few frames your person will still have a standing frame allowing for certain strings to work in conditions they normally wouldn't.

 

If you do a max range 2a poke, the most you could do is 2a, 6b, 3cd, filler or you could delay a j.3ad, b, combo if you're confident in your timing..  i'm pretty sure 2a, 5b, whiffs on a lot of characters at max range, Jin being one of them.  

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Just cause the opponents hitbox is standing, it doesn't mean they're still blocking.  This is because j.b, jc, j.b still has a small gap, so if someone stops blocking it they'll get hit.  Fuzzy guards work often because of how standing and crouching is programmed.  From my knowledge, if someone blocks high and then blocks low, for a few frames your person will still have a standing frame allowing for certain strings to work in conditions they normally wouldn't.

 

If you do a max range 2a poke, the most you could do is 2a, 6b, 3cd, filler or you could delay a j.3ad, b, combo if you're confident in your timing..  i'm pretty sure 2a, 5b, whiffs on a lot of characters at max range, Jin being one of them.  

 

Fuzzy setups work because if a player blocks an overhead, their character remains in the standing block pose until blockstun wears off, even if they switch to blocking low. During that period of time, you can hit their standing hitbox, and even though it looks like they're blocking high, there's a chance they aren't actually doing so.

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Fuzzy setups work because if a player blocks an overhead, their character remains in the standing block pose until blockstun wears off, even if they switch to blocking low. During that period of time, you can hit their standing hitbox, and even though it looks like they're blocking high, there's a chance they aren't actually doing so.

 

this is true for any transition, from standing to crouching or from crouching to standing. they don't even need to be blocking for it to be true, but blocking (particularly an overhead) is the most practical application.

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this is true for any transition, from standing to crouching or from crouching to standing. they don't even need to be blocking for it to be true, but blocking (particularly an overhead) is the most practical application.

 

Yes, though there has to be something to prevent players from freely changing states as they want to. Fuzzy setups specifically take advantage of the fact that players are actually locked into one state until they leave blockstun.

 

It's also probably worth pointing out that you can get crouching combos from lows on players who switch-block high after crouch blocking something. This happens fairly often, and doesn't require any setups, so it isn't something people usually talk about specifically.

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Thank you that actually clears it up quite a bit.

But i guess that begs the question, why in such high level gameplay, would someone stop blocking and/or block low after the 2nd jb? if you blocked the 2nd jb theres nowhere else to go but up for rachel its not like shes gonna low blow you...I would see that blockstring done by someone like N-O done many many times and an abnormally high % of people are getting hit around the ja jc portion to which N-O continues into a combo with. Meaning they either are blocking low or they stop blocking period...right?

 

Ok now back on to jin...and i do apologize for trailing away from jin but you guys are so helpful.

Jin's seem to be extremely grab happy. Do you guys know any signs that hes going for a grab? right now 100% of grabs are landing on me because my reaction time is just much to slow. any particular movements or patterns or moves that flow into a throw well to look out for with jin?

 

jins 623C, his dp...my friend likes this move. I saw N-O punish this will a fatal counter combo (5c fatal, frog, dash 3c...etc). Can anyone go over that with me? any tips on when i can go in, and what the danger range is for this would be nice. if im just on the ground and he does it thinking im going to jump, can basically just go in and 5c without getting tagged?

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623C hits in a small area around Jin on the ground, as well as very high into the sky. It's pretty much just a tall rectangle that's centered on Jin. I'll let other players tell you how the fatal combo works, because I'm unfortunately out of practice with the current version of the game.

 

 

 

For your question about players getting hit after the second j.B in a pressure string, it would help if you could provide a video clip or something so I can be sure of what you're talking about. Chances are that opponents either got hit by the first fuzzy or had a slow reaction and switch-blocked low late, allowing them to block a second overhead, but not a third one.

 

 

Jin has a lot of good ways to string into tick throw setups. It's just part of his character design. If he can get players to start trying to tech throws, he can punish his opponents with things like his 6B (I think it's 6B? the side kick that goes airborne?), which just straight up beats throws. I'd suggest practicing reacting to throws and the setups players use to get them (ie: recognize stagger pressure into tick throws, etc.), but it's a hard thing to just sit down and practice. Actual match experience is the easiest way to quickly improve at dealing with throws. Practicing how to throw opponents can help, too, since it gives you a better understanding of how those situations come about.

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good idea ill find the video and tell you exactly where it happens! ill have to get back to you on that.

 

i actually messed up when describing the fatal combo that punished jin's 623c, it was 5c fatal, frog, dash catchair?

 

i tried putting the cpu on 100 and trying to block...oh it was so brutal jin just tore me up. all his moves have such distance i have a hard time dealing with it his ranged moves. As expected, trying to instablock just got me even more wrecked haha.

 

whats a tick throw by the way?

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A tick throw is a throw that's timed so that it hits as soon as an opponent leaves blockstun. If performed correctly, players won't get purple throws, and will instead get green throws.

 

And yes, the starter for FC combos is 5C(1) FC, Frog, dash 2C. I don't know the path out of that, though, in the current game. :(

 

 

Trying to just block against computers can help a little bit, but you're mostly training your reflexes and not your game sense. What I mean by that is, well, in normal gameplay, attacking players don't just randomly push buttons, stop, move around, and then push more buttons. They actually try to pressure you, frame trap you, and so-on. In that same vein, defending players typically make use of other defensive options outside of just down-backing and blocking forever. Things like poking out of pressure, jumping/moving, using a reversal, etc. aren't represented when you simply practice down-backing against an AI.

 

All that said, training reflexes and learning to recognize moves is still useful, so keep at it until you feel alright with it. :P

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Ah ok i heard the term tick throw before, didnt know what it was.

 

Yeah i kept trying the fatal punish in training mode. The dash is making the catchair miss...apparently it takes too long ill have to work on the timing. I think after the catchair and frog hit you can just do a standard BnB from there, 6b 6a 236a....etc ends up being like 4k dmg!

 

100% of the icecars were hitting me too theres no way i have the reaction time for that. Is it normal for rachel players to block low when jin is at medium-ish distance against jin? I feel like I should be doing the opposite, blocking low and if icecar comes i punish accordingly, if i feel like something that will overhead me comes i can try to react to that and do standing block. Does that sound like a better strategy for someone at my level against jin? Right now doing standing block and trying to react to the icecar, especially EX version is causing me to take tons of damage.

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