[CP2] Carl loketest discussion

[Raiza57]

Yes, but the combo read CT>46D>lvl2 6c
Meaning the 46D connected, but the lvl2 6c did not. So that would mean that there is a change to 46D that is not accounted for, either on air hit, ground hit, or both. 

-edit: At least that is the only logical explanation. 

[Psykotik]

There's other ways that that combo could get invalidated. The combo works b/c the CT gives Carl time to do 46D a little bit later and also charge 6C to Lv2. Keeping what Pen mentioned in mind, the nerfed CT untech time would mean that Carl has to follow up the CT with 46D immediately and no longer has time to charge 6C to Lv2. 

 

With that said, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they snuck in a Tenerezza nerf in the final version.

[sinder]

What Tenerezza changes? There's no mention of that in the loke tests and the video didn't show it.

EDIT: For anyone who didn't see yet, there's a video showing some of Carl's changes which Akira and JG are referring to https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UxGc3_2IUX8

Lol thank you

I thought they were basing everything from the 3 second trailer time

[sinder]

Carl:

- 6[C] can now be cancelled by pressing A.

- 4D now deals 3 hits. First and second hits can't be blocked while standing.

- Con Fuoco (41236D) has its damage and travel distance changed.

- Con Anima (63214D) now has super-armor and Fatal Counters.

These are the changes listed in the video psyk posted

Taken straight from the main 2.0 loketest thread

Btw these changes are final so the fermatta nerf + the jump cancel nerf are gone :D

I'm just happy Litchi and Mu got beaten with the nerf bat.

[Psykotik]

Er, I should probably reword the OP. The final changes refer to changes from the loctest to the final version. It doesn't necessarily debunk the loctest changes.

[Niko]

Btw these changes are final so the fermatta nerf + the jump cancel nerf are gone :D

 

You're assuming that these change logs are complete. Since Carl was considered a top tier character before, I find it highly unlikely that they're giving him nothing but buffs -- I'd expect a lot more changes (including nerfs) to surface once the arcade version of BBCP 2.0 is out.

[JG]

First of all... it seem that 6A is jump cancelable on block, yay!

6Aガードさせてjc復活

Also, im not so sure but maybe 5B is jump cancelable on block again, i dont know japanse but someone tweet this about 5B:
 

速報

カルル5Bガードさせ時jc可能

 

のはず

見間違えじゃなければ

[Psykotik]

Asked a friend to check these (shoutouts to @TENMA0105), 6A and 5B are indeed jump cancellable on block now.

[JG]

5C is not jump cacelable.... let see if 5B will be a good remplacement for 5C.

Also... im not so sure, but there is a chance that the opponent can tech after j.C, if you hit him when you are very high.

 

JC高空ヒットだと受け身とられる

Any info about 2A? it hit mid now? or is still considered as a low?

[Psykotik]

More translations [sources: https://twitter.com/re_nza_0_can, https://twitter.com/sodeika_0331] once again thanks to @TENMA0105

 

'Anima starter the combo time seems iffy'

'2D 4D starter combo is short'

'5B6B tenerezza charge 6C is possible'

'high jC does not down opponent'

'jB attack level nerfed'

'hitting grounded opponent with 3D does not put them in down state'

'if air hit, same as before'

'Brio wall stick time shortened significantly'

'8D same as before'

'Fermata can be tech even in OD'

'OD Fermata guaranteed 1400 damage'

'Arpeggio guaranteed 1285'

'gear super does 516 minimum'

'OD gear does 652 minimum'

'6D fast startup, grounded opponents slide'

'6A jump cancel on block, none on 5C'

'jA is an overhead'

"holy shit broken nee-san recovers fast" (lol)

"holy shit nee-san meter recovery is slow when getting comboed (?)"

'bora (volante?) consumption is high'

'in the corner it's possible to do Brio -> CT -> tene -> charge 6C but it's a super tight link'

'tenerezza does not force stand'

'3D forces crouch on grounded opponents'

'5C > punch super does not combo'

'3C is supposedly really fast now'

[JG]

'6A jump cancel on block, none on j.C'

?? i dont get the "none on j.C" part.

[Psykotik]

Oops, that should say 5C. Fixed.

[JG]

LOL!!! First day with the game, and the Carl army is already working on the framedata XD!!!

That level of commitment.

[Domethieus]

The changes made me cry. Guess I'll play this game again~

[sinder]

 

'tenerezza does not force stand'

 

 

 

Damn, I knew they were gonna change this move's properties somehow

 

It would've been gdlk especially with the old 5B back

 

Shiro was right about the unblockable reset being easier now. Can now mash j.A>4D. Then again they made it so 4D starters have short combos. The fact that 3D now forces crouch is pretty decent too,

 

However, I am a little baffled by the j.C change... it lost its knockdown property at certain heights? That doesn't seem right, and I have no idea what a "high" j.C is. The only explanation I could think of is that the opponent can air tech it if they are too high and don't hit the ground in time, but that would be odd...

 

We also lost one of the best setups in the game: Fermatta> OD>Volante with fully charged 6C. 

 

Carl will probably stay the same in terms of strength amongst the class, but damn, he would've been so good if they left Tenerreza alone :/

 

 

[JG]

 

Damn, I knew they were gonna change this move's properties somehow

 

It would've been gdlk especially with the old 5B back

 

Shiro was right about the unblockable reset being easier now. Can now mash j.A>4D. Then again they made it so 4D starters have short combos. The fact that 3D now forces crouch is pretty decent too,

 

However, I am a little baffled by the j.C change... it lost its knockdown property at certain heights? That doesn't seem right, and I have no idea what a "high" j.C is. The only explanation I could think of is that the opponent can air tech it if they are too high and don't hit the ground in time, but that would be odd...

 

We also lost one of the best setups in the game: Fermatta> OD>Volante with fully charged 6C. 

 

Carl will probably stay the same in terms of strength amongst the class, but damn, he would've been so good if they left Tenerreza alone :/

 

 

 

Other modification that is game changer, is 6D. Now if you hit the opponent with that move, even if he is in standing position, 6D will force floor slide. So, now we are forced to juggle after that move T_T.

Also, 2D does not bounce the opponent now and animation look VERY weird. Get stuck at middle way.

About j.C... i gotta admit, it was seriously nerfed. Now, if you do Volante, 5B, j.B, j2.C, j.B, j.B, j.C you will not be able to connect 46]D[ or 6D after j.C, the opponent can just tech. With this, our corner carry and oki can be seriously affected.

Confirmed, 2A is mid now.... U_U. I wonder how much can affect ours blockstring, now that 5C isn't jump cancelable.

[Raiza57]

Big wall of text coming. Sorry, although, I believe it to be very informative. Please, share your thoughts!!!!

Soo, now I understand how they are going on about this approach on the new carl. Provided that all of these changes are accurate. So lets see if I have this correct., i'll go over nerfs first, why I believe them to be nerfs, changes and buffs.

 

-46D:No longer forces standing.

-3d:now forces crouch.

-6D:Forces slide.

The reason I say this is because while reading the changes, I saw the change to 6D, my thoughts were "Oh, odd, guess now I guess I will need to use 3D in order to be an Ada filler move so that I can set up for the UB setup.", until I saw the change to 3D. As it stands now, our UB reset is much easier, IF it can be performed. The reset is easier, but the conditions to be met have became more severe. The opponent needs to be standing, before being hit, and the starter, IDEALY, would need to be a short starter. I say short starter because the only filler Ada attack we have is 8D, which will not work on a crouching opponent. 3D>6c>5a>5B...>Jc/4D is an option for normal starters, but makes for a horrible OS blockstring. So overall the biggest nerf is that now the only high damage combo we have that leads into a UB reset is like borderline godlike hard. Which would be as follows: Carl filler>anima>iad>j2c-allecan>(Force stand)>2a>2b>5b>5c>46D>iad>ja>ja>jb>j2c>ja>ja>jc/4D reset. Or the lazy man combo: Carl filler>cantabile(RC)>FORCE STAND>6c>5b>2b>5c>46D......>jc/4D reset. So the big boy combos into the UB reset will be very interesting to see how creative people can get on a non-standing opponent. 

 

-2a: No longer a low.

-2D/4D: Short starters.

I feel the 2a change is indeed justified, which I will save for the buff section*** As for the 2D/4D, we should have never been able to get 5k from an 3k combo>UB reset>+oki in the first place. That was setplay at its finest.

 

*Ada Meter: Recovery is shortened while being comboed.

*jc: No longer forces KD, now has set amount of hitstun before air tech

These two changes I can see having a very powerful and hindering effect. With the ada meter, it seems that while Carl is being hit, it recovers much more slowly than normal. On the plus side, she comes back to life very fast. So depending on the situation is may be much more helpful to simply let her die. Whereas vs characters like Rachel/litchi it becomes even harder to keep on them, and keeping her alive would usually be a priority. As for the JC being techable, this creates for some very interesting 8D & Brio resets if done correctly!!!!!!!!!! Which, both of those moves, are normal starters that can lead into some good damage. But at the same time, it makes confirming>KD without Ada a bit more difficult.

 

+6D: Causes slide

With this change, we will be able to do combos involving brio mid screen much more easily, in comparison to CP1.1. Which is still looking to be our strongest combo route.

+6C:Can feint with A

+4D: First two hits are low

+Ja: Still an overhead

Since 6C can be faked into a feint, this gives Carl some very powerful mixup's by himself. For instance, volante oki>6C(feint)>2b......>Jc/4D reset. That alone is extremely good. Reacting to a 9frame low is already hard enough. If Carl still have a low 2a, he would be able to 6C(Feint)>2a>easy mode short starter/standing opponent>UB reset. Like I said before, the most optimum situation to setup a UB reset would be: short starter, standing opponent, sandwich. So making 2a a mid, is an acceptable change in my book. Since 4D is 3hits, the first two being low, this gives us a bit of leeway with the timing. In reality it is very difficult, imo, to time the UB reset perfectly everytime. Mistakes happen, sometimes the opponent blocks my UB reset. It happens!!!! Or should I say happened!!!!!! With 4D being two hits, that means even if you mistime it perfectly for the first hit, there is a greater chance that the second hit will be a true UB. Creating a more stable, less blocked, reliable UB reset. Lol I feel so wrong saying that, but I have the level of difficulty in timing the UB reset. Lastly ja, which is still an overhead...... Fuzzy Ja is still possible, enough said. 

+Fucco: FULL SCREEN FUCCO!!!!!!!!!! So, one of my largest complaints with Carl was that I would always have a hard time confirming from a 6a, if ada wasnt always around. Even if she was, 6a was like one of those normals that I simply hated using as an anti-air. We barley get oki, crap starter etc. Now that fucco goes full screen, this gives us a bit more to work with. One anti-air could go from corner to corner which is very powerful. Using fucco in conjunction with jc, will allow us a more stable, practical go-to combo, from a air confirm or anti-air punish. 

 

**Thoughts on jump cancellable changes.

So, for the most part, having 5c as our only jump cancel on block gave us a very limited use for it. Sure we could poke from large spaces and keep pressure from great distance, but we have vivace for that. So having it removed, to me, is more like "Meh, I dont really care." I say this because, 5c could only combo gattling into 1 low attack. That low was 3c, which was very slow so if they were mashing DP we would be hit out of it, and punishable on regular block, with or without vivace. Meaning, if we did 5c, it would be stupid not to jump cancel. Making our ability to use crossup j2c-allecan, much more difficult. With 5B being the new jump cancellable normal, we have 2 safe low attacks to bait jump-outs, dp-mash, and attempted crossup-blocks, all while still keeping pressure; which leads into our second jump cancelable normal 6a, for a whole other set of mixups. 

 

Over-all, I do believe this Carl is even stronger than the ones in previous versions. Our neutral is at its finest with a full screen fucco, tenereza, and 1.5kdmg brio. Making our other neutral oriented match-ups slightly better for us. A much more reliable easy to preform UB reset at the cost of damage. Higher damaging combo routes. Better solo Carl mixup. Better jump cancelable options. Reliable anti-air/air hitconfirms. Greater potential for gimicks. All while other characters are being nerfed. Overall, I wouldnt be surprised if Carl moved up in the tier list. Although, before giving guesstimate damage calculations, knowing the P1's & P2's of Ada's attacks is needed. So if anyone can give/find that information please let us know. 

[JG]

[Pen_Ninja]

Uhh... I hate to crush your UB loop dreams but I'm fairly sure 3D is no longer a low...

[Psykotik]

^ This man is correct.

One more change that I was just informed of:

- j.2C is no longer special cancellable on block

RIP Allecan

[wiredgod]

^ This man is correct.

One more change that I was just informed of:

- j.2C is no longer special cancellable on block

RIP Allecan

 

Uggh.  At least it is on hit so you can combo if it crosses up.  The new Carl looks like he will feel very different.

[JG]

Uhh... I hate to crush your UB loop dreams but I'm fairly sure 3D is no longer a low...

Lol! i forgot that 4]D[ send the opponent flying xD!!!! My mistake.

 

One more change that I was just informed of:

- j.2C is no longer special cancellable on block

RIP Allecan

.... So, if we try to do IAD Alle~canl and the opponent block,we are going to be punish with a monstrous combo.. Nice, especially when Carl have too much HP.

Another thing, even if 2]D[ connect as a counter.. with luck, you will only be able to use a regular combo route that end with 8]D[. If you try to add more hit after that, is very probably that the opponent can just tech out of it.

[JyakotuKurayami]

So in reading these changes, is CP2.0 Carl better or worse? Because CP1.1 Carl is a very good character (in the right hands). With 5C not being jump cancelable anymore, does that mean I can't do the basic B+C>5C>jB>jA>jB>j>jB>jC anymore? I always catch people off guard with that VERY basic combo because they never expect it. I usually play defensively with my Carl, but times I do have momentum, I use this as much as I can.

[Psykotik]

It's kind of hard to tell at this point. He got some very noticeable nerfs but also got some nice buffs in exchange (hello there 4D). CP 2.0 Carl will take some time to flesh out but I feel that he'll still end up being a very capable character.

 

Btw, you can still jump cancel 5C on hit, it's the jump cancel on block that they took away.

[Raiza57]

Lol! i forgot that 4]D[ send the opponent flying xD!!!! My mistake.

 

.... So, if we try to do IAD Alle~canl and the opponent block,we are going to be punish with a monstrous combo.. Nice, especially when Carl have too much HP.

Another thing, even if 2]D[ connect as a counter.. with luck, you will only be able to use a regular combo route that end with 8]D[. If you try to add more hit after that, is very probably that the opponent can just tech out of it.

J2c causes a bounce, so we will still be safe. Not only does it cause a bounce, but it also has fast recovery. Making it not as punishable as you may believe. Also, for the combo from the 4D UB I figured:

jc/4D>vivace>6clvl2>5c>volanted/brio>air confirm>8D>optional super would be the way to go. For optimal damage.