[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[Airk]

Lol so true tsubaki normal just end up craptacular every game, although I think 3c and 5c are good changes although I would like 3cc to auto correct again. Anyway 6a is a non punishable overhead on block which is the reason why it's slower then most, it usually follows the same style fast overhead less follow up option on block although I always see litchi breaking the common rule every time, they will probably give tsubaki some breast implants first before they fix her normals.

 

Sorry, but who the hell has a "punishable on block" normal overhead in this game?  Please tell me, because I would like to start punishing them, thx. :P

 

Sure, you can look at a bunch of overheads and go "Oh, well, these characters (Rachel/Noel/Relius/Whatever) also have slow sucky overheads!" and the answer in all of those cases is "All of those characters have other overhead options and/or ways to cover/force you to actually block their overheads (That don't require 50 meter and a specific setup.)"  (And as you mentioned, Litchi has both of those AND her overhead is 22 frames).  The problem Tsubaki has isn't actually that "her overhead is slow" it's that her mixup is poor in general as a result of generally slow, short ranged normals (2B is still the worst 2B in the game) which results in barrier being even stronger against her than against most characters; Only one option of any sort of "mixup" unless you count jump-ins (there's a reason that you see Kuresu doing a bunch of j.b > Airdash > j.B > j.C>  j.CC stuff) causing her to be more dependent on throws, which all have laughably short range.  She lacks any way to burn her harder-to-get-than-everyone-else's special resource in order to either enhance her mixup or extend her pressure (imagine if j.214D was on par with Rachel's 2D > j.A) and 6B just doesn't make up for that all by itself (being a generally unremarkable normal in its own right.)  Her only option, really, is to play a sort of "Russian roulette" of "which bad pressure reset option will I use this time?" in order to stay near enough to her opponent that maybe, maybe they'll fail to block her one mixup option.

 

So the choices for fixing this are:

 

A) The obvious "Make her one mixup option better" - which is actually a little bit dubious, because it risks making her into a one-note character that is all about forcing a single "50/50" situation.

B) Give her some means to spend resources to extend pressure so that she gets more chances to use her one mixup option (an obvious choice here is to make uncharged 22D +2 or so)

C) Give her alternative means to open up the opponent - I think someone thought the command grab was going to be this, except that it's range and lack of damage make it completely unthreatening most of the time, and it came at the cost of another method (22D unblockable).  An obvious choice here would be to make j.214D hit high.  If they're worried that's too fast they can slow it down to like 18 or 20 frames of startup without meaningfully impacting much about its other uses,  and if they're worried it's too much damage, they have this little thing called "P1 Value" that allows them to determine exactly how much damage you get off a move when it is used as a starter.  And anyway, we're talking about a move that costs a scarce resource AND is -8 on block in the best possible scenario, AND would only really be a meaningful mixup off 5A/5B/2A because none of our other jump cancellable normals have any option for a low followup.

 

Anyway, once again we're back to me ranting that there are about a billion different things they could do to make Tsubaki better and they just have to pick some without deciding that we also need corresponding nerfs.

 

The Choir. I preach to it.

[Zouf]

Jin's overhead is -8 on guard and not canceallable. :P

 

Tsubaki's new animation for her blade super.

 

[chzchan]

Oh neat, so she shoots little lances that look like sea shells instead of bananas now. I'm hoping that they all like stick to the opponent even if they block so they are active until all of them finish flying.

[Airk]

Oh neat, so she shoots little lances that look like sea shells instead of bananas now. I'm hoping that they all like stick to the opponent even if they block so they are active until all of them finish flying.

 

Well, based on the fact that Tsubaki is running before they've all even 'launched' yet (some of them are clearly behind her) it seems like there's going to be a lot more time to act there, at least.  Still prolly not worth going into Overdrive for, but who knows.

[chzchan]

Apparently OD can be used to "cancel" out of blockstun now instead of burst. There isn't much more info beyond that, though. Like I don't know if it will have a separate command or if it will cost more resources to use or something.

 

I use OD as a reversal in matches all the time to get full Mugen combos out of CH when I see someone doing a move with long recovery that I can force a whiff out of with OD's invuln, but that works only if they used it raw. Now with this I will be able to catch so many more characters off guard when they are pressuring me or during strings that they think are safe.

[TeeJay]

I was wondering how a 5BB suction could work, (I guess like Jin's 5B second-hit iirc or valks move) to pull them close offering easier options and keeping you in? Random thought.  

[JyakotuKurayami]

I still wish that every special move could have A/B/C/D again instead of just Aequum and Aeterna. I'm not really technical when it comes to frames or whatnot, but I was handy that each special move had different properties based on the button used. Oh how I miss my 5BB > 2BB > 5CC > 236A > 214A > 22A in CS2.

[D.R.F.]

I probably cant speak since I only sub tsubaki but im personally okay with less versions of the SAME move, as long as they make those few variations applicable for different situations. I seriously dont think she needs four versions of chariot tackles and four versions of her dp.

[TeeJay]

I miss being able to use j.236C as a crossup. It wasn't great but it hit at times where j.C and j. B would whiff. 

[Kiba]

I should always keep reminding myself that these kind of discussions happen when new iterations come out.

Before I go crazy on deleting posts, I think I'll be a good dawg and back away until anything CONFIRMED comes up.

[bakahyl]

Sorry to intrude but has this been confirmed?

 

 

However, a universal change is that everyone's super will now be enhanced in OD. This means Tsubaki's Blade Super will get an OD version.

[Kiba]

To be more specific it was confirmed a little before I posted that.

 

http://www.famitsu.com/cominy/?m=pc&a=page_fh_diary&target_c_diary_id=84867

[bakahyl]

Thanks for that, i have never read that article before

[zaeris]

feels like they are nerfting everyone and bringing them to tsubaki tier instead of the other way around lol.

[JyakotuKurayami]

feels like they are nerfting everyone and bringing them to tsubaki tier instead of the other way around lol.

I'd rather be Tsubaki tier than Makoto tier. And to make matters worst, I think Makoto is getting even more nerfs. Hopefully, Tsubaki gets some buffs as well.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Tsubaki: 

- 6C no longer jump cancels. 

- 22[D] not a unblockable.

 

WTF?! 6C is no longer jump cancelable?! 22[D] isn't unblockable? WHY?!?!?!?!

[chzchan]

I'd rather be Tsubaki tier than Makoto tier. And to make matters worst, I think Makoto is getting even more nerfs. Hopefully, Tsubaki gets some buffs as well.

 

The changes made to Makoto might actually make her really good.

 

WTF?! 6C is no longer jump cancelable?! 22[D] isn't unblockable? WHY?!?!?!?!

 

Whoa whoa whoa what? Wait a second 22[D] was never unblockable. You're tying to trick me here man.

[zaeris]

well 22d was never an unblockable since bbcp 1.0, 6c is kinda sad in the fact that they are nerfting a nerft character more lol, and yes I think makoto changes are kinda awesome special cancel of special might add something interesting.

[chzchan]

well 22d was never an unblockable since bbcp 1.0, 6c is kinda sad in the fact that they are nerfting a nerft character more lol, and yes I think makoto changes are kinda awesome special cancel of special might add something interesting.

 

Wait, are you kidding me? That 6C change is real? Why? Where? I need citations.

 

Also they might be referring to 22[D] being unblockable in Mugen. Damn that's whatever. I used it once in a blue moon, but it was neat that it existed.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Haha, you guys are right, 22[D] wasn't unblockable. Just got it from the other thread. But the 6C nerf is pretty...confusing. The move is already slow to come out, so why can't we no longer jump cancel from it anymore? That makes ZERO sense. I remember using 6C as a launcher (barely) so I could do my jB > jC > j236X > j214X combos. Blah!

[chzchan]

Well that just means you HAVE to special cancel out of 6C and no more 6C > j.D > j.X shenanigans anymore. It's not like that wasn't made incredibly unsafe by the 1.1 change anyway. Man this better mean that 22B got made + on block because using 6C in pressure now is suicide.

 

Also, if it is no longer jump cancellable even during combos, that means no more 6C > j.D > j.C > 5C combos. Arc sure does love Tsubaki.

[zaeris]

they adding special cancel to it, but I would prefer jump cancel since you can just sneak in jump cancel special instead, jumping cancel is better because it makes the moves safe, now you're kind of force to go into pink command grab and both players will tech making safe that way. Anyway 6c neutral is going to be a yolo move from now on lol.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Tsubaki:

-j.214D overhead now.

[chzchan]

We tk214D instant overhead now. Too bad we won't be able to do it out of 6C.

 

Anyone know Konan's Twitter? I heard he is currently really excited and posting all the changes right now.

[Monarch]

Mmm I can already taste it. 5A > 5A > tk214D

And there goes our 6C > j.D corner combos. Although we barely go to know you, you will be missed. ;_;