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[P4AU] Elizabeth Critique Thread

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Post your own videos in this thread for other people to critique! Use the main video thread for posting top and/or Japanese player videos.

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Here's a set of me vs Zealous' Yukiko @ GUTS3.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/570508273?t=0h43m19s

 

 

 

 

Gonna be honest as a disclaimer: I honestly don't know if I have any right to add any critique since I by no means am any close to the skill level you guys have. So you have the liberty to call whatever I say as complete and total BS.

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1st match:

The first round you reacted accordingly to all the set-ups Yukiko tried to pull on you, your reactions were spot-on and the your respect to her fans is quite apparent. Execution in combos were perfect, and the Maziodynes you sneaked in on her were impeccable.

I liked how you snuck in that poison on Yukiko with the Maragidyne<Sweep ending combo and your pressure I admit was surprisingly... pressuring!

 

Second Round was kinda... hard for me to understand since you caught Yukiko with a 5C but followed with a 5D that you couldn't get her with. You also caught Yukiko again with a J.5B though I think you missed an opportunity for a cute little combo when that happened.

Can't say I know what was going on with that ONE MORE! that popped up when you got to catch Yukiko with a 5AA

 

Though I got to see the true extent of your Thanny-poo pressure here! (I didn't even know 5D did... whatever that was but I'mma try to see how that happened).

Overall: Your dominance this match was what shined on and granted your well-earned victory. = )

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2nd match:

I think here, Zealous started to figure you out. And as a good friend of mine says "The moment you become predictable is the moment you'll lose" or somethin' like that...

 

The first round was where Yukiko started to really rush you down to hell. I did notice you inflicted fear and tried 5D on her. I was thinking maybe a regular grab would've done the job much better but again (the disclaimer). It's quite obvious that Zealous knew that you would react a bit more meekly with that Fire Break buff flowing on Yukiko half the round which I think was what led to the SB Maziodyne that came outta nowhere. I'm not saying that there wasn't any reason for you to act a bit more cowardice though but I noticed your entire demeanor completely changed as soon as Fire Break was dispatched which I believe was what granted Zealous his victory.

 

Second Round

... I feel like that was the exact same beginning as the first round but only with you getting to break her Persona from the correct guesses... XD

That throw was simply marvelous though, ended up being the one thing that gave you the round.

Well, that and the fact that Zealous acted prematurely and performed Dia which hammered the final nail in Yukiko's coffin.

 

Third Round

I'm not exactly sure if you're able to block maragi in midair when it sprouts up exactly so I'll leave that...

Edit: So from the 3rd match you were able to block it so...... I'm even more confused on how that connected...

That Furious Attack sadly was what gave the round a fast loss for you what with your back being at the combo and Yukiko having Fire Break ready to give you an unblockable. It was the only way though since you would've been caught by her J.A.

 

[Actually... maybe it might've gone better if you got caught by it? That or a burst maybe would've made the match go on a better route for you since I don't think Zealous could have been able to followed up with a combo (unless it was a counter or Fatal Counter which probably was the case...)].

 

Ultimately I believe that this match was handed down to Zealous since he was 1)Able to apply pressure to you with that Fire Break and 2) The FA

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FINAL (3rd) MATCH-U.... FIGHT!!!

First Round

I don't know what the heck those commenters mean. Since it does seem like you don't want to be on the defense. But at least you have on-par defense when needed so I think I'll have to call a bit of BS on that (ironically). Though I will say that waiting for Yukiko to use a fire attack would effectively take away the neutral dominance that she can apply with Fire Break (But this round would have to be an exception)

That 2C charge-up certainly did it's job at conjuring some intense damage though. Too bad the J.B. oki wasn't performed since I think that might've reached Yukiko when she rolled away. Which in turn, would've erased the momentum Yukiko had.

Unfortunately victory was swiped away from you in an instant once she rolled away and got the corner pressure up in your face. (Were you able to block the 5A that gave the finishing combo though?)

 

Second Round

Well... ignoring the fact that you were able to block Zealous's fans along with Yuki-chan's Sakuya/2A mixup I GUESS you were totally not blocking her attacks. (Sarcasm)

I would like to join in the compliment party and say that DP was indeed well-done/timed.

Even better was your SP was low enough to inflict charm which meant Zealous NEEDED to rush you down. Though with failure to do so.

That failed combo might've been able to win you this one. And you were just so close to winning with what followed up until that Persona break...

 

(I was thinking perhaps... rolling then throwing Yukiko might've finished the job. Though I'm not sure if Konohana Sakuya's new move has an auto-correct nor am I sure you would have enough space away from it to do anything without any punishment)

 

I would have to finalize this by saying you performed excellently. There were a few fatal mistakes (which is littered everywhere like gum in a high school's desk when playing Lizzie) but that doesn't cover the shining performance you were able to uphold against Zealous. I'd like to say you're at least three-fourths as good as Damosu is (which I hope is a good and honest enough comment since you were just incredible).

 

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P.S. to the commenters if they somehow read this (it's about the Lizzie complaints): IT'S BECAUSE LIZZIE'S THE (SORTA) THE SAME AND EVERYONE ELSE IS BUFFED

 

 

I hope my critique wasn't... well... bad or anything hehe. ^_^;;

 

Whilst Editing: SUCH RUN ON SENTENCES, MANY STUPID WOW I GOTTA CLEAN THIS UP *Get's the duster

Edited by GBAer64

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Thanks for watching/critiquing my match. 

 

 

I don't know what the heck those commenters mean. Since it does seem like you don't want to be on the defense. But at least you have on-par defense when needed so I think I'll have to call a bit of BS on that (ironically). Though I will say that waiting for Yukiko to use a fire attack would effectively take away the neutral dominance that she can apply with Fire Break (But this round would have to be an exception)

 

I don't necessarily believe that that comment is too far off. I would openly admit that I'm kinda afraid of fighting Yukiko and I did try to mash out a few times where I shouldn't have. 

 

 

 

That failed combo might've been able to win you this one. And you were just so close to winning with what followed up until that Persona break...

 

I suppose this is a recurring problem that I have. I'm way too reliant on Thanatos (or I'm not too smart about where I call him) and more often than not, being persona broken leads to me not being able to finish the match. Perhaps I'm just too wild and I don't know when to stop or something.

 

 

 

(I was thinking perhaps... rolling then throwing Yukiko might've finished the job. Though I'm not sure if Konohana Sakuya's new move has an auto-correct nor am I sure you would have enough space away from it to do anything without any punishment)

 

 

I'll definitely try rolling next time!

 

 

 

 

I would have to finalize this by saying you performed excellently. There were a few fatal mistakes (which is littered everywhere like gum in a high school's desk when playing Lizzie) but that doesn't cover the shining performance you were able to uphold against Zealous. I'd like to say you're at least three-fourths as good as Damosu is (which I hope is a good and honest enough comment since you were just incredible).

 

Thanks. I think this is the nicest thing someone has said about my play lol. I don't think I'm that good yet, but I'm flattered nonetheless! Thanks again for giving me feedback.

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention. About that 5AA>OMC, that was me trying to take his burst. It was a hard read, and it didn't pay off. If you get 5A FC though, you can do that without the combo dropping!

Edited by Elochai

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I don't necessarily believe that that comment is too far off. I would openly admit that I'm kinda afraid of fighting Yukiko and I did try to mash out a few times where I shouldn't have. 

Well it is Yukiko so I wouldn't blame you with the better zoning power she has along with those nasty unblockable set-ups...

 

 

I suppose this is a recurring problem that I have. I'm way too reliant on Thanatos (or I'm not too smart about where I call him) and more often than not, being persona broken leads to me not being able to finish the match. Perhaps I'm just too wild and I don't know when to stop or something.

Not to worry too much. It's not a fatal mistake since that IS a part of Elizabeth's fighting style. Only reason I say it is because I myself have set up my own snares (aka Persona breaks) which has indirectly forced me to learn to react on neutral when Thanny-poo's tuckered out from getting hit.

 

 

Thanks. I think this is the nicest thing someone has said about my play lol. I don't think I'm that good yet, but I'm flattered nonetheless! Thanks again for giving me feedback.

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention. About that 5AA>OMC, that was me trying to take his burst. It was a hard read, and it didn't pay off. If you get 5A FC though, you can do that without the combo dropping!

I'm even more flattered that my critique was actually taken consideration since I thought I was just running with words that came up my arse to be honest. (@//A\\@);;

 

Attempting to take Zealous's burst though? That's an intriguing idea actually... Though like you said, the results proved to make the resources used to be all for naught. But I'll be taking that into note... A very very interesting trick...

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Alright, so I took forever to finally post on here. I do apology for that, Elochai

 

I'll start with general neutral situations. You did well at neutral for the most part, but you weren't really taking advantage of some of the things that Zealous was doing. I know unfamiliarity with Yukiko plays a part in this, but there were some general situations that you were in that would come up against other characters. For instance, when Zealous would go to break your persona at fullscreen after 5C/2C pressure you wouldn't ever attempt to set up Maragidyne to contest his buttons afterwards. If you're going to potentially lose a card anyways after failed attempts to open them up with Thanatos, you might as well press your neutral advantage as much as possible. On the flip-side, you weren't actively breaking persona calls when Zealous was pressuring you fullscreen. I saw you use 5A/5B > 2AB a couple of times, but I never saw you do 2B > C Garu or or j.A to stop the persona calls that were above you. The former keeps you safe from fans that come after her 2D/j.D/etc., and you can input a falling air Zio if nothing is coming at you after hitting the persona for the latter. 

 

There were often times where you relied a bit too much on j.B/5B for neutral where you could have just moved forward or blocked to deal with something. j.A is another useful tool for dealing with her persona at neutral, as you don't have to worry about stalling your air momentum if you throw it out. You can air backdash > j.A to punish some persona calls and not worry about Yukiko potentially punishing your landing recovery if the spacing suits the situation. A lot of the j.B/5B whiffs hurt you a lot, and it's a habit I end up falling back on every once in a while and getting punished for it. The 5C whiffs hurt you the most, as you would lose a persona card and get CH for a decent amount of damage multiple times.

 

I don't think 5C is a good neutral tool against zoning, and I feel that it's even worse against characters with fast normals (like a 5f 5A) or really solid mobility options. It's okay in some situations, but it doesn't really lead to anything without you blowing meter or conditioning them to respect the 2C follow-up. Our conversions off of stray 5C air hits got worse if you aren't actively confirming into SB Bufu off of it when you can't do a 2C follow-up, so you don't really get much off of it if it does connect in most cases. It's a decent option in very specific situations, such as trying to deal with low air dashing for approaches and jumping at different spacings. Stray hits with 5C can be used to set up Maragidyne oki, but I didn't ever see you going to that. Try to use 5C more conservatively for situations where your opponent is patterning his/her approach or defense.

 

 

Edit: I never could remember what else I had to point out. Sorry orz

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Okay, I finally managed to get my set from tonight's stream out. They start from the timestamped location and go on for a while. There's probably not a lot that changes in my game as time goes on so I don't blame you for only watching one or two and critiquing those. Please roast me, good Liz players.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/kcsrk/b/624011795?t=11m50s

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Okay, I finally managed to get my set from tonight's stream out. They start from the timestamped location and go on for a while. There's probably not a lot that changes in my game as time goes on so I don't blame you for only watching one or two and critiquing those. Please roast me, good Liz players.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/kcsrk/b/624011795?t=11m50s

 

I'll try and watch it tonight to give feedback. I'll edit this post when I do.

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Okay, I finally managed to get my set from tonight's stream out. They start from the timestamped location and go on for a while. There's probably not a lot that changes in my game as time goes on so I don't blame you for only watching one or two and critiquing those. Please roast me, good Liz players.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/kcsrk/b/624011795?t=11m50s

 

I only watched 3-4 matches so take the following as you will.

 

What stands out to me the most is the lack of proper combos. Practicing better combos is important but you should familiarize yourself with Elizabeth's combo theory as well. What I mean is that you should generally have an idea of how her moves work together. For example, there's one point where you hit the Yukiko player & he's pretty high in the air; you just do 236CD>5AA when you could've instead taken advantage of the Yukiko player's height by doing 236CD>2AB>236D>5B>stuff. I kinda get the feeling that you're just stringing moves together, which leads to really prorated/dropped combos. 

 

In regards to neutral/pressure, I think you use 214AB too much. It's an okay move to throw around a few times, but you can really die for it; the recovery is insane. It seemed like the Yukiko player wasn't aware that he could punish it, but you should be careful against more seasoned players. You use 214A a lot too, and after a while I'm sure the Yukiko player was conditioned to not jump. If I was playing, after I caught the jump a few times, I would've gone for 5D. There's no point in trying to get a jump out that just isn't there. Additionally, you shouldn't use 2[C] for midscreen oki. Use 214D instead. I'm not sure if that was an accident or not though. 2[C] really isn't useful unless the opponent is at the corner of the screen since they're going to be too far to be pressured; 214D alleviates this by bringing them closer to you. You also have some weird use of neutral jC but it worked sometimes I guess? 

 

One last nitpick. I don't like that you use 5B to break the opponent's Persona. I think 2B is a better alternative if only because you can jump cancel to safety afterwards. Just doing 5B kinda leaves you there since you can't jump cancel it and you'd have to cancel it into another move.

 

Otherwise I think you played alright. Hope this post helps.

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Thanks for the tips, Elochai! I really do need to learn both optimal combos and Liz's combo theory. I do just kinda string moves together to get x, y, and z status ailments most of the time, with a little thought given to where I started the combo.  I do 214AB entirely too much; I'm actually amazed I don't just get flat-out murdered for it by this point. I try to keep myself from doing it but it's easy to anticipate a jump and just throw it out for the free full combo, especially against Yukiko. Vs Yukiko, I like to try to call out 2D/j.D summons fullscreen with it. I also hadn't really thought of using 2B to break her persona. I was using 5B because it tends to catch fans thrown after 5D, and if Yukiko runs up behind it it'll either hit her or make her block most of the time. And I do need to work on (aside from everything :v ) my oki and combo enders in particular, to keep my game going after I get a hit in.  I'll try to learn from and lab up the stuff you pointed out. Thanks!

 

I also have more gameplay from that night, this time vs Chie. http://www.twitch.tv/kcsrk/b/624055816?t=14m32s

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I noticed the Bufu usage too, and I think you could trim down on that. I'm not sure about the usage of 214A too, and I don't think it's worth it to throw it out during Thanatos stuff. Especially when you're sort of far away from the opponent, throwing out 214A to catch the enemy jumping isn't that good IMO. I'm honestly not sure though since in that situation I only ever religiously 2[C], lol. 

 

I did notice a couple times where you used 236236A when you could have used 236236B for blue health. It does make a difference IMO which one you use in certain situations. IIRC, while 236236A gets you more SP, with how Liz gets SP back, if you are in a situation where you can safely use 236236B, you should use that instead. 

 

I also agree with Elochai about the combos and stuff. I remember when you did 214AB > 2AB > 2D, when you could have gotten something much better than that. You also did 5AA > 5B > 2AB > 236236A > stuff. So I think this is just getting used to Elizabeth's ideal combos and stuff like that. I don't personally use 236CD > 2AB > 236D, though I should, haha.

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I only watched part of the 2nd link, but I immediately caught a lot of things that you need to adjust. The things you lack with Liz hurt in general, but Mo has a decent amount of experience against Liz since he's played me, Bace, and Elochai at least a few times. That's a really good thing for you, actually. Get him to play you more and ask him questions while you play!

 

Anyways, the two biggest things I noticed round one is that your pressure has no structure and you don't manage your resources at all. On offense when you make someone block, you don't look for anything specific. You do the exact same pressure string every time when you're not using 5D (it's catching them a bit, but this isn't a good habit to form). Really, everyone should just be blocking your pressure and getting back to neutral since you're letting them get away without enforcing any threats. You have a number of pressure options and the meta game (aka fuzzy OSes) deals with them really well, but you're not getting to the point where this is even an issue b/c your pressure basically carries no risk for your opponent if they want to just sit there and block you all day. Use your dash cancels and hop cancels to vary your pressure and force your opponent to react to the situation. Use sweep more to discourage rolling and force people to block low more often at farther ranges. Make your opponent afraid of throw, too. It's much more useful when pressuring than 5D is.

 

You don't always have to be doing something when you're pressuring your opponent. I noticed you always pressing a button when your opponent was forced to block, and that really just telegraphs your pressure and lets your opponent know that you aren't actively responding to what he/she is doing or adapting overall. It's a good idea to just pause for a moment to block and check the situation after pressuring someone a bit. Maybe integrate some backdashes and 2B jump cancels to see how your opponent responds to your pressure. If your opponent is downbacking a lot, go for more stagger pressure. If the opponent is pressing buttons on his/her defense, slow down your pressure game and just look at how they're responding.

 

5B > 5D isn't a good way to catch rolls at all. You only want to use 5B > 5D when Thanatos was already out and your opponent was over-respecting you during your pressure. 5B is a projectile, so if your opponent rolls preemptively, you'll be open to a full punish. If you want to catch rolls during your pressure, go for a normal throw or stick to 5A/2A/5AA staggers since they will all recover in-time to catch a roll during your offense. The spacing between you and your opponent mid-screen can really mess up 5D usage for catching rolls, so that isn't what you want to use 5D for mid-screen.

 

Now for the meter usage. I've said it a number of times in response to a number of different videos over the last year or so but...I really want to drive this point home. It's necessary to learn how to manage your resources properly if you're going to play Liz. Proper meter/resource management against any opponent while using any character is a really important practice and is necessary at higher levels, but it's even more important for Liz considering her entire gameplan revolves around enforcing a threat with your meter intensive tools. You need meter to vary your pressure (ie. 2B > OMC mixups and 5C > OMC), you need meter to make your neutral scary and to force respect at neutral (ie. SB Zio and 2C confirms), you need meter to keep your opponent guessing when you're on defense with Liz's poor reversal selection, and you need meter to even do damage to your opponent in most situations. Any time you use any meter, your meter gain stops for a while. If you're using tools that drain meter in succession of one another, you're effectively just losing meter for a good while with very little pay-off. Learn your meterless confirms and understand how to use your meterless options when you're playing neutral.

 

If you ever need a run down of what to do in a specific situation against any character, ask a question in the matchup threads or hit me up on twitter and I'll try to help you. Asking specific questions is really important, so I suggest you do that a bit more often. 

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So I got to play some matches with Radoric today. I only saved a few of the replays (compared to how much we played at least) but was hoping someone here could critique it and explain to me stuff I need to work on. Apologies for the awful quality in advance for those who watch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGHDGbIcWOo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iECRtbPqgRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieFi3x_6IEo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoA_g17K3-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPAjrUYw1pg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNictirkREI

 

(If the quality is too bad I'm willing to re-upload these)

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So I got to play some matches with Radoric today. I only saved a few of the replays (compared to how much we played at least) but was hoping someone here could critique it and explain to me stuff I need to work on. Apologies for the awful quality in advance for those who watch. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGHDGbIcWOo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iECRtbPqgRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieFi3x_6IEo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoA_g17K3-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPAjrUYw1pg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNictirkREI

 

(If the quality is too bad I'm willing to re-upload these)

 

Okay, here're some general things:

 

Sometimes it looks like you're autopiloting for the lack of a better word. Like you will commit to something and you won't stop until either you get hit or Radoric gets hit. There are a lot of times for example that Radoric is too far away to be hit with 5A and you whiff it 2-3 times and then get counterhit. You can't really afford to do stuff like that since Margaret literally can kill you in two combos. 

 

You should pay attention to your meter in relation to your health. There was an instance for example where you were on the brink of awakening and instead of doing whatever>mind charge>whatever, you just did a standard sb garu combo. This would be okay if you had the meter to put yourself into awakening after the fact but you didn't. It's not a big deal sometimes but you can actually die easily if you get hit right outside of the awakening threshold. Otherwise I don't think that your combo selection is necessarily bad. Using a Hama combo when you were about to lose in order to take Radoric's burst was very smart as well. 

 

The neutral in this MU is kinda wonky since you have to pick your spots really well or you die, but I feel you should've been more active. You kinda just let Radoric do whatever he wanted a lot of the times. I think you should've at least tried to check him sometimes with zio. If you're able to establish a somewhat strong presence in neutral then you can get away with things like awakening B zio easier. Margaret also kinda has difficulty fighting our jB at certain angles/ranges. Try to use those angles and your approach will be easier. You should also be careful with using a lot of Thanatos pressure. You got hit with 5A>236C a lot of times since you were still in recovery from 2C/5D. Generally speaking you're gonna lose cards fast if you try a lot of Thanatos pressure. Recalling Thanatos sometimes with Agi may not be a bad idea. 

 

I know this post is really general and not too specific but I hope that it helps you in some way.

 

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^ Thanks for the critique! I don't mind that it's general -- anything helps

I agree with the auto pilot thing, I suppose. I expect him to do one thing and if it doesn't payoff I don't react in time and mash A, lol. Guess I have to work on that.

I don't really understand the matchup tbh so that's probably an attribute to me being over respectful? I don't know Marge's holes very well and I don't want to Zio to risk a spear or even a CH, so I think with time if I get more EXP I might get more experience.

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