Zappa Vs. I-No

[Oiboi]

I finally got some experience with this matchup, and I figure some experience is better than none, especially with a character that is so rarely played. This match is like a mix of Dizzy and Chipp matchups. I-No will dominate the air, and has strong options from her note, yet is quick enough and her mixup is so amazing that she can get on you and no matter how good your defense is, she WILL hit you. Your only real option is to get and maintain momentum, and look out for her super and DAA as reversals. You can attempt to reversal as you do with Chipp, but just like with Chipp, these can be baited if your not careful. Naked: -Right off, be aggressive. Since I-No won't have tension, it's harder to get you off her. -Primary moves to look out for: All of her HS attacks, 6P, 2S/2K (fast and good ranged). When she's in the air, she'll use j.D and dives to try to mix you up alongside her very fast dash and j.K/j.S moves. Be careful when she lands, she can do an overhead and a low very quickly, and even do another overhead just as fast. Her airthrow is strong as well; only get in the air to do defensive airthrows. Her note is difficult to deal with, because she can bait you into jumping for a free airthrow if your not careful. If you must jump out of the way, stick out a move (naked, you can probably do j.D or j.K/j.S to try and spook her). -Get a summon. You're at a big disadvantage without a summon in this match, because your best move is easily baitable and punishable by her. Ghosts: -Hard to use due to her mobility. Many times, she'll just ignore the tosses and get in your face before you can do anything. -Locking down is almost impossible, but 2HS/j.HS are strong counters, and f.S will win when she tries to dash. Positioning is very important to use the ghosts in this match. -Probably second worst summon to use. Sword: -Great summon. Fast pokes, great anti-airs, and a strong DP. An optimal summon, either the best or very close behind the dog. -You can do pretty much anything with the sword and land free hits on her. When avoiding Notes, you can Jump back and do j.HS or jump forward and swordspin (only safe if you RC though, so be careful). DP beats out nearly everything, including STBG. -Low defense coupled with crap stun rating and light weight = free damage off any hit. Dog: -Amazing, as usual. Again, watch out for the note because it hits multiple times, but if you avoid it you can do as you please. Jumping out of the way and using 8D to punish the rushdown is more than doable, it's heavily suggested. -2HS + 2D wakeup trap = Stun in 2 or 3 reps. -Dog will just tear I-No apart. She can do nothing, basically. Raou: -Probably the WORST summon to use. She gets free hits off nearly any attack you do, chemical love is actually a threat now, STBG goes under almost all of your moves. Note is harder to avoid because Raou's hitbox becomes active when you attack, and it will still hit even if you jump over and j.HS her. -Darkness anthem is too risky. Not that your should be doing it outside of combos, but 6HS also gets owned by STBG (She does have enough time to execute it before your 6HS comes out). Edguy can be baited but as usual, it's a reversal you can use to stop her mixup and rushdown shenanigans. Overall: Honestly, this match is either even or slightly in I-No's favor. I know it's unheard of for her to have a good matchup, but this is seriously a tough match. With the air dominance of dizzy and the speed and mixup of chipp (and then some), she's 2 of zappa's hardest matchups rolled into one. The only salvation is how many reversals you have and how low her defense is. Play smart and don't let her combos get to you and you'll do ok. She can't deal too much damage unless she gets the chemical love airdash loop, and doing that on Zappa is more than tricky due to the way he floats. Most of her combos off of mixups will only to be reset for more mixup, and not actually dealing that much damage, so don't get frustrated that she gets hits on you and focus solely on reversing the match in your favor. As usual, but moreso with this matchup as I don't have too much experience with it, comments, suggestions, etc. welcome.

[Phrekwenci]

I-no isn't looking to be defensive so you need to stay on top of her every chance you get. 5K is probably one of the best weapons you got beating her dash and STBG at times. A well timed (or perhaps random) 2HS bite will definitely get you at an advantage at some points. As Oiboi said, the sword is wonderful here because it's tricky. The long range of the HS moves will keep her back, just be careful of STBG, there's not much the sword can do there. As an alternative to Raoh, many players expect you to be offensive once he's out and that should send them turtling. This is where you run and throw. Some I-No's will use their aerial arsenal of moves to just stay away from him until his time runs out. If that happens, I'd just cancel Raoh and get a summon they think they can deal with better. Chances are by the time you cancel and resummon, they'll be on the other side of the screen and you could advance the dog, throw a P ghost FRC S ghost or poke out some sword attacks. The I-No I used to play against would never block high, so I would constantly 6HS him and it would connect constantly. But that is player specific although may come in handy in your matches.

[Jonhova]

I have tons of experience playing against I-no. I have been playing Zappa as my main against my friend's I-no since ac was released on ps2.

Unsummoned

-spit. spit again baits tiger knee/hyperjump air dash in. summon. or spit they block and you summon.

- combo summon rc run p summon. rc again to get another summon if you have the bar. Its a race to get raoh not to conserve bar.

GHOSTS

-The ghosts are great at being annoying. If Ino is trying to play from afar she will lose or get frustrated from marbles and pots. ( loves pots!)

-Hyper jumping and using frced kick ghosts that bounce are really usefull and cover pretty much the lower portion of the stage. The jump h.s when I-nos going to air dash is great and also good for wakeup and even a fakeout when you jump over their head and double back but be prepared to tech an air throw.

-When your using the ghosts you don't want to get hit from chemical love, notes, or the air dash attack that is VERY fast and DANGEROUS on rc

DOG

Without a doubt the hardest summon to control and especially so while blocking. Keeping the Dog alive has got to be the most frustrating aspect of this fight.

I-no will try to hit the dog at all costs usually killing him and leaving you in a bad spot. Frequently i will use 8D and I-no will fd it kill the dog and now she's on your face doing a high/low mixup.

You want to avoid getting in a situation where: I-no instant airdashes backwards doing a note or frced note and airdashes on top of you.

You can:

a) dodge it or

b) 6D, 5D or 6D, 8D chasing her before the not gets out.

c)fd it.

Now if you block/fd it, I-no is going to be on top of you so fast you cant get a punch out and you know I-no is going to go low but since your blocking low you cant 8D or 5D. 4D,D doesn't work because the startup time is much too laggy. You have to wait for that high attack or until you have enough space to breathe for a second. Fding might be a good option as well.

I-no's standing punch will beat all your air moves while dog is summoned or if your unsummoned. Unless you just got a knock down don't cross up with hs.

SWORD

After Raoh its the best normal summon.

-I use constant pressure games while the sword is out. burn your meter on rc after 236 s, hs. burn meter on frc sword swipe, the wall bounce and aircombo after is worth it not to mention you get 3 orbs from it:keke:

Raoh

If that happens, I'd just cancel Raoh and get a summon they think they can deal with better. Chances are by the time you cancel and resummon, they'll be on the other side of the screen and you could advance the dog, throw a P ghost FRC S ghost or poke out some sword attacks.

I would never in my life cancel raoh heres why:

[+]

-Raoh can kill I-no in one combo. (The amount of orbs required usually means 1/3 to half health has been taken lost by I-no.)

-The slash fireballs are safe from chemical love at full screen and travel full screen. Are great at closing distance and making I-no do desperate things when feeling cornered.

-If you have them afraid of dash low slash, hard slash you can just dash fireball getting a good amount of chipp damage.

-Raohs fireballs cancel I-no's notes.

-Raoh's special does ridiculous chip damage. Use it at the beginning of the summon and the end for maximum damage unless you land some hits warranting last edgy rc last edgy low slash last edgy.

-5D is crazy good damage! HS HS and one more HS on the way down ground bounce last edgy!

-It is also the second fastest Dust aside from order sol?!

[-]

You will never get hs low fireball loop like on other characters.

Footsies

6p beats standing/crouching punch and kick but loses to low slash (not sure about standing slash)

5k beats low slash and wake up grabs.

Questions

Most reliable Dust combo for sword? and ghost?

For ghost i use PPP j.c PPP D punch ghost throw.

Best way to get 5HS with dog in a pressure string?

Favorite pressure strings with dog?

Is there a way to make Raoh hs low fireball loop?

[whytesakura]

zappa's issues with i-no naked : no projectile; blocked summon gets punished by throw and or combo; has nothing in the air that would shut i-no down. easily zoned dives are a pain. sword: STBT goes under and or counter hits his stuff; note not as annoying but still a problem when advancing; hcl hits sword stab; dog: note at the ground gives trouble for the dog to move forward. once you get her blocking its frown town for the i-no player raou: STBT; hcl punishes a lot of his stuff. really hard for raou to get his game started, but has the most comeback potential aka damage ghost: zappa's win card, handles i-no a lot better than the aforementioned next to sword which takes away her air game. STBT brings moves i-no across the ground around air ghosts; hcl punishes ground ghosts; ghosts that fall on head beat out her notes. dashing helps a lot but it won't be the only way you move forward.

[Phrekwenci]

I would never in my life cancel raoh heres why:

If you were reading the sentence before, the canceling of Raoh was only to relieve I-no from turtling from you. And if turtling isn't a problem, STBT is. It goes through every special and super you have as Raoh. Yea sure, you can kill her in one combo, you just have to catch her. That could take 14 seconds.

[HellSap]

cant you just 2s stbt, or at least 2p? I rarely play the matchup but its never felt like a problem...

[Jonhova]

I still would like to know your input on these questions :

Most reliable Dust combo for sword? and ghost?

For ghost i use PPP j.c PPP D punch ghost throw. Is that the most effective?

Best way to get 5HS with dog in a pressure string?

Favorite pressure strings with dog?

Is there a way to make Raoh hs low fireball loop?

@hellsap

-stbt isnt really a problem. you cant react to it on sight with sword with like you said 2s or 236s landing a counterhit then hs rc aircombo:)

-The real problem is getting stuffed from hovering rushes when you try to use 5p,5k,6p.

@Phrekwenci

-exchanging your opportunity for damage/lockdown/chipp for a fresh summon with no orbs? You are going to be summonless after x seconds anyway, whats the rush?

If Ino is turtling looking for a knockdown you should grab, chip enough where they feel uncomfortable in that they will want to attack, mixup between hs and ultra fast dust.

[Phrekwenci]

@Phrekwenci

-exchanging your opportunity for damage/lockdown/chipp for a fresh summon with no orbs? You are going to be summonless after x seconds anyway, whats the rush?

If Ino is turtling looking for a knockdown you should grab, chip enough where they feel uncomfortable in that they will want to attack, mixup between hs and ultra fast dust.

How do you grab when she's too far away? The turtling I am speaking of is her flying around the screen not just sitting in the corner. Similar to the way Eddie would turtle.

And I don't think I've seen anyone use a dust combo with Zappa, just some IDs with jD.

[Jonhova]

@Phrekwenci

last edgy and p fireballs.

[Phrekwenci]

Any good I-no is going to bait those moves and then fly to the other side, not to mention I-no has the ability to pass the top of the screen with her moves. Good luck Edguying them up there.

[bucklemyshoe]

as an i-no player i hate going up against the ghosts, give me roah, the sword, or even the dog any day, anything but ghosts. i don't know who said i-no has a hard time doing cl loops on zappa but that's not true at all. sure some things like 2S > HCL will wiff but to be fair that's like that on the entire cast. 2S HCL, 2H HCL, and 2D HCL are all character specific but 5K HCL and 5H HCL (your main loops) aren't.

[Jonhova]

@Phrekwenci

any competent zappa player can restrict their movement wisely without getting knocked down. if they do fly away, on the way down you can edgy and IF they fd do it again or setup for fireball chip damage.

@bucklemyshoe

HAHA ghosts are very good at keeping her at bay:kitty:

the corner loops get ridiculous even without hcl frcs, and zappa is very comboable by Ino.

[Phrekwenci]

@Phrekwenci

any competent zappa player can restrict their movement wisely without getting knocked down. if they do fly away, on the way down you can edgy and IF they fd do it again or setup for fireball chip damage.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Digital Watches]

I sense big fish, small pond.

[whytesakura]

this dicussion went the wrong way real fast

[Oiboi]

I sense big fish, small pond.

this dicussion went the wrong way real fast

Seconded on both accounts

Let's try to limit tips and comments to things that haven't already been posted, and discussions on tactics and things that work. Looks like a few people didn't even read the first few posts honestly

[whytesakura]

use zappa's size to your advantage. 2s is a really nice poke around mid range to keep i-no from poking if you decide to use raoh..limit yourself to low normals and react to her jumping/dashing throwing out last edoguys are bad imo because hcl will fuck you the hell up. i've been playing kenji's zappa alot...utilize your throwing skills.she doesn't have an uppercut and her throw range is probably just as good as yours but you run faster...5d is good for mix up as long as keep her from stroking. uppercutting on wake up will get you murdered.....never with the sword running towards her is a good option...take away her option of noting from far range with 2hs. it is a godly move against an airborne i-no..i disagree the sword is that bad a fight.. but it is hard to deal with because now he is small and can get in on her for almost free. just keep in mind that one knockdown, and its frown town from there especially when a lot of i-no's really damaging combos work on him. dog has issues moving forward with the note...again if you can find a hole and catch that knockdown....dog pressure is crazy retarded. naked.....your best option is to get that (air)throw or sneak a summon in there when she is not noting. naked 2s is really good and 6p i believe beats stroke...have not tested this for sure though.

[Try Again?]

Well, most of what WhyteSakura said is right. 6p beats Stroke. I learned the hard way, don't edguy this move. 2HS with sword. Ghost.. in general are good. Zappas High jump laughs at notes. Dog isn't that great unless you manage to get Ino to stop for some reason or find a gap in pressure.

[Jarekov]

the biggest problem i have against i-no is i cant stop her from getting in. i get stuck blocking waiting for her to gattling push herself out and then restart her rush with a note.

[Try Again?]

the biggest problem i have against i-no is i cant stop her from getting in. i get stuck blocking waiting for her to gattling push herself out and then restart her rush with a note.

High jump the notes before they get near you. Don't get knockdown dude, because then your forced to block mixups.

5k beats lows. Thats important vs Ino.

[Oiboi]

Some more tips from this weekend.

Naked:

-You're at a serious disadvantage, here. Your best technique is to wait for I-no to commit to something like a dive or a stroke, then summon or block and throw.

-I-No's mixup is long and tedious. Watch out when you start blocking and don't crouch too soon, as she can feint touching the ground with her j.D.

Ghosts:

-Probably the best summon vs I-No. Ghost tosses are great to make some space and lock her down. Don't neglect your Slash pokes, their very great--j.s will sometimes beat HCL if you space it right.

-Once you get a ghost on her, keep her scared to move. Don't let her get the chance to pressure you because that's not a situation the ghosts can win.

Sword:

-Second best summon, mainly because of it's fast jabs and good anti-air.

-Love your DP. Will beat almost all of her specials and will shutdown her rushdown, so long as you FRC it.

Dog:

-Really difficult to use properly because it's very hard to lock her down and position the dog.

-Watch out for the notes, they'll shut you down and keep the dog from being able to attack. If you get stuck blocking the note with the dog on you, just be patient until she comes in for pressure before attacking. Watch out for mixups so you don't lose him.

Raou:

-Tricky to use because of how big the hitbox is on him.

-Play it safe and stick to 6P/5K to land hits, and 2S or 5HS for ranged hits. Once you get a hit in, aim to kill her as fast as possible.

I could use some tips for dog in the matchup. Positioning him is really tricky.