[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[Soviet Bear]

Like I said, I don't like CP Hakumen and had more fun playing CS and even CT Haku. I'm not pretending I'm being objective, it's just my personal preference. The aspects I enjoyed about him were changed about and I feel like the game is pushing me towards a specific playstyle rather than just giving me the option of multiple ones. I never really cared about his damage output. I guess I'm in the same basket as some Tager players who don't like the current version of Tager, even if he looks "good on paper".

 

I'd probably agree with you that he's better balanced in CP, but he also feels more boring to me. They said they wanted to return some characters' individuality in CP2.0 that was lost, so I'm hoping whatever they do to Haku makes him feel similar to his old versions.

[NecroTheReaper]

"Interesting" is a quality of a character that'll change from person to person. There's some that largely agree, but Haku is one of the characters where his game plan has been moderately changed from then to now. Saying "I'm right, you're not" is kinda funny given the nature of these being opinioms to begin with xD.

Anyway, I think I -could- handle if he got 1f 6D startup, but I don't think it should ever be unblockable. It turns his drives into "now your oki is useless" buttons for people who rely on projectile oki (Relius, Rachel, Makoto, Kagura, etc). A 1f head counter would already reallt change people's approch options. Maybe I'm uninformed about Haku, but my time in Ex wasnt very fun where I had to do run up>grab for 80% of my mixup

[Galm_II]

I'd probably agree with you that he's better balanced in CP, but he also feels more boring to me.

 

True, now he's just another character with a fansy drive.

I mean, he was all about pure, heavy punishment for the other guy's mistakes after all. Counter with Drive AND FCs start up. Now only with OD that can be a thing again.

So instead of twerking here and there, they changed it from roots.

[chzchan]

"Interesting" is a quality of a character that'll change from person to person. There's some that largely agree, but Haku is one of the characters where his game plan has been moderately changed from then to now. Saying "I'm right, you're not" is kinda funny given the nature of these being opinioms to begin with xD.

Anyway, I think I -could- handle if he got 1f 6D startup, but I don't think it should ever be unblockable. It turns his drives into "now your oki is useless" buttons for people who rely on projectile oki (Relius, Rachel, Makoto, Kagura, etc). A 1f head counter would already reallt change people's approch options. Maybe I'm uninformed about Haku, but my time in Ex wasnt very fun where I had to do run up>grab for 80% of my mixup

Well right now, at least from my point of view however wrong it may be, the way his counters are divided right now are like this:

5D is for catching jump ins and attacks that can be delayed or are slow. Maybe overheads that need to be used raw or gatling out of jabs can be dealt with but it depends because 6f startup. Loses to lows.

2D is for lows, but can be used to punish opponents' attempts at frame trapping because of 1f startup as well as mid and low meaties on wakeup. Loses to overheads.

6D is for catching the opponent trying to punish you for doing something unsafe while keeping yourself from being punished because of this move's 6f recovery, but it loses to lows to it gets blown up by 2A attacks with low attributes even if you call the opponent on mashing. Should never be used raw because of ridiculously long startup.

j.D is really all purpose and catches everything that happens to hit it and has a ridiculous hitbox when the catch activates. Not sure exactly what the downside of it is aside from requiring jump startup if you are on the ground. It has less recovery than 2D. I think it gets the least potential damage maybe?

236236D is the real all around one, though. It makes it so that the opponent can no longer rely on meaty overheads, but it can be called.

If 6D were made to be 1f then it would need to be given back the longer standard recovery it had in CS though I really don't think Hakumen players would mind that. It could probably just be a mirror of 2D if you really want. 1f startup with 30f of recovery. Its active frames would need to be cut in half as well. It could also just be reverted.

The way the 2.0 changes look for him just seem like they are messing around with his offensive and combo options rather than defensive ones.

[Soviet Bear]

jD has two major downsides. One is the minimum height required (which can be tricky to judge mid-match) and the other is the recovery. Recovery frames start after you land, so while you're falling post-jD and after you land, the opponent can punish you. So while it does catch everything ever, it's also the riskiest Drive he has (save for 6D).

[Zouf]

They seemed to make Tsubaki's C DD able to be followed up easy in OD, so that might be good for her. it's also 12f startup though, and her OD does nothing except add charge ( so it probably only adds like, .5 of a charge or something ....).

 

Hmm, it also reduces the recovery of 5D, 2D. I believe every (or most) charge cancels are + in OD.

 

It also increases the charge speed :P

[Errol]

Hmm, it also reduces the recovery of 5D, 2D. I believe every (or most) charge cancels are + in OD.

 

It also increases the charge speed :P

 

basically nothing

[Raziul]

So which is better in your opinion as a Hakumen player; BBCSII counters or BBCP?

Arakune maybe?

 

I'll take CP counters any day of the week. 5D anti air has been the greatest thing ever.

[chzchan]

basically nothing

 

It could be better if her D specials were actually good. I think what they were going for with the faster recovery while in OD is doing safe-ish charge cancel pressure in order to fill up her meter all the way with the increased rate from the cancel, but not only is that not worth it compared to a burst, it is not worth it from what you could be getting from doing a combo. It might just be a "well you screwed up this combo so at least you have some kind of thing to fall back on but not really" kind of thing, but I don't know. Her OD is just executed so horribly at least compared to some other characters' ODs. Like Ragna's for example, even though it is just Blood Kain minus the health drain, changes the properties of all of his drive moves and specials which allows for new combo routes that lead to both higher damage as well as greater combo-ending health gain. I will admit that some characters have even worse ODs, though.

 

I'm hoping that all the buffs/changes to OD DDs in 2.0 and hopefully specific ODs with some stealthy undocumented changes will make OD as an option more promising in the eyes of characters that have really terrible ODs.

[NecroTheReaper]

ODs are honestly hard to make useful for some characters imo. Mostly because the most different thing characters have is their drive, and some character's drives you cant just make better by "oh, less recovery on blah blah, give X more hitstun". I mean, not every character's drives is the basis of the way they play.

[chzchan]

See but not all ODs expand on the capabilities of the character'a drive alone or just some frame data here and there.

You have ODs like Tao's that give her both insane pressure on top of the insane pressure she already has as well as some extra combo damage. This is not achieved by augmenting her drive in any way, but instead recycling her DD from CS that adds an extra delayed attack. Same thing with Bang, though his is pretty tied to his drive, a lot of the benefits he gains are not just simple drive attack buffs. Still a recycled DD though.

All of the characters with special meters or resources generally just end up getting more of those with their OD, so the strength of OD is determined by the strength of the characters when they have maximum resources or a nearly endless supply. This is where the fatal flaw for Tsubaki is because even at max resources she really isn't that threatening or powerful compared to other characters with max/endless resources. The reason why her Mugen DD is strong isn't because she can do a bunch of drive specials in a row, it is because she gets 110% bonus proration on all drive attacks used.

I hope that the devs realize this and adjust accordingly in the future not just for Tsubaki but for other characters who suffer from sucktastic OD as well. I believe ODs should at least be more creative and not just be extensions of the drive or drive resources.

[Zouf]

basically nothing

Well... yeah.

[Verimeloni]

I mean, not every character's drives is the basis of the way they play.

 

You can play any character with or without their drive, differences in performance can be pretty big tho

[Airk]

ODs are honestly hard to make useful for some characters imo. Mostly because the most different thing characters have is their drive, and some character's drives you cant just make better by "oh, less recovery on blah blah, give X more hitstun". I mean, not every character's drives is the basis of the way they play.

 

The sad thing is that would have been completely fine for Tsubaki.  Give her D moves some fancy new properties or improve the proration or frame advantage or whatever.  But instead, we get faster charge cancels?  'cause it's totally worth it to use overdrive for that, right? =/

[SoWL]

It took a grand total of 1 page to bring the discussion back to Tsubaki. You guys must be so proud of yourselves.

[ArisatoGod]

It took a grand total of 1 page to bring the discussion back to Tsubaki. You guys must be so proud of yourselves.

Dustloop pls.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[Errol]

Strong OD can be pretty simple. OD is pretty plain for Ragna, Jin, and Noel, but still pretty strong. The ability to use it like an RC basically, and get instant access to a good combo extender is quite powerful. Ragna can just immediately get 4k dmg and corner carry off a full health OD cancel. Many others are much more questionable, but whatever. I don't think that just buffing DDs for all characters was a great answer to that.. Maybe they'll take note of characters with bad ODs and compensate by making the OD DDs nuts though.  I think it's not very interesting for OD to just be a tack on more damage with DD thing though..

[Angry Guy of DE]

I think what could've been very interesting was that Over Drive would reset SMP on moves done before activation.  Some characters don't get much utility when even OD enhanced moves still trigger SMP so in some cases its done at the end of a combo to add on somewhere of 600-700 damage to a DD so help seal the match.

Now sure it wouldn't change hitstun or damage scaling but most special moves done in combo have a set stun due to wall/ground bounce effect so it can offer additional juggle or carry.

I also wouldn't mind if both people have burst and could pop their OD to nullify the other's OD activation and leave them at neutral (provided that one player is not in hitstun).

[JyakotuKurayami]

This is where the fatal flaw for Tsubaki is because even at max resources she really isn't that threatening or powerful compared to other characters with max/endless resources. The reason why her Mugen DD is strong isn't because she can do a bunch of drive specials in a row, it is because she gets 110% bonus proration on all drive attacks used.

Is it sad that I usually just OD at the beginning of the match with Tsubaki just to get some meter? Charging for meter duing an actual match is so darn slow in CP that I usually end up fighting many of my matches chargeless.

[Anne]

It took a grand total of 1 page to bring the discussion back to Tsubaki. You guys must be so proud of yourselves.

Don't make me call Kiba guys :|

[Rhannmah]

It took a grand total of 1 page to bring the discussion back to Tsubaki. You guys must be so proud of yourselves.

 

I don't understand what people expect from these kinds of general threads.

[Errol]

This is not my fault.

[Anne]

I don't understand what people expect from these kinds of general threads.

As a moderator I expect people to discuss new developments and general things about the gameplay. The only reason you see me get on about certain things is they're not about news or gameplay, they're plain dumb and don't belong here, or they're beaten to death so hard they drown out anything in the thread worth reading.

We have an entire forum here. If you wanna go on endlessly about Tsubaki, go to the Tsubaki forum (protip: whining isn't a thing you should anywhere). The music and characters and VAs and aesthetics? The Zepp Museum! A 20 page discussion about N-O's tier list? Make it its own thread! Anybody can make a thread about anything and I'm far more likely to leave it be if you actually use the entire forum instead of one thread. The dead horse I will beat is that if this thread gets bloated or full of opinions, then it becomes useless at best and harmful at worst.

I really don't mean to sound like I'm chewing people out or anything, I'm not :| just trying to make sure this thread ends up not like the last one.

[chzchan]

I swear I'm not actively trying to make this [CP] Tsubaki Complaints and Whining 2.0. I just wanted to discuss the nature of OD and its utility on different characters. I could have brought up other characters as examples, but she just happens to be the character I know the best relatively. I wanted to try and segue it into a discussion about how the new ODR and OD DDs will affect the worth of OD when put on a balance with Burst, but I fell asleep before I submitted that post and my phone ran out of battery.

 

I guess I just should stop even bringing her up here if things are going to turn out like this.

[Anne]

I'm mostly teasing about the Tsubaki thing. As long as it's not 3-4 pages of "oh look Tsubaki sucks" I'm not worried.