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[CP 2.0] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

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Here is the new and most up to date list combined of changes so far thanks to SoWL and Argent Zero for translations

from jwiki http://www14.atwiki.jp/teigar/pages/124.html and https://www.evernote.com/shard/s519/sh/9e90e86c-53b1-45a5-b238-70754a0e411a/c10afa79703e430fa96656a4891d601c

 

In Red will be buffs, blue will be nerfs, green is neutral changes. CH = counter hit.

 

6A

  • If hit in air, causes opponent to be dragged down towards Tager's feet + Slide down

 

5B

  • Normal aerial hit untechable time decreased from 20 to 17.
  • 5B -> 2B Gatling route loop = only up to the third time.

 

6B

  • Start-up frame: 24 -> 15
  • P1 changed from: 80 ->90
  • Feet Invincibility added (not at 1Frame)
  • Damage: 960 -> 520
  • P2 changed from: 92 -> 89
  • No longer overhead
  • Non-Jump Cancelable
  • Removal of forced crouch when hit.
  • Aerial hit = forced down.

 

JB

  • Longer active frames
  • Aerial CH causes Ground Bounce
  • More recovery frames?
  • Decreased aerial untechable time.

 

2C

  • CH: opponent will fly towards where Tager is looking.
  • Hit causes opponent to float alot higher.

 

6C

  • P1 changed from: 85 -> 100
  • Removal of same attack penalty proration.
  • Now ground-bounces on regular hit too
  • P2 changed from: 92 -> 84
  • Decreased aerial untechable time.
  • Floats higher.

 

JC

  • Decreased aerial untechable time.

 

5D

  • P2 changed from: 72 -> 84
  • Causes small wall bounce when hit at the tip of fist mid screen.
  • During OD, Guard point added.
  • More advantageous on block
  • Causes slide down when hit anywhere other than the tip of the fist.
  • Causes wall splat when hit in the corner.

 

2D

  • P2 changed from: 72 -> 84
  • Increased distance
  • Increased active frames
  • Frame advantage: +2
  • During OD: guard point added.
  • Slide down time and distance decreased.

 

4D

  • P2 changed from: 72 -> 89
  • Increased Magnetic Pull
  • Faster recovery
  • Frame advantage : -2 -> -1?
  • During OD: guard point added.
  • Does not blow back that far on normal hit
  • Elimination of hitbox around feet
  • No longer wall-bounces in the corner, instead makes airborne opponent fall straight to the ground
  • CH: causes small wall bound both in air and ground

 

JD

  • P2 changed from: 72 -> 92
  • On air hit it doesn't blow the opponent that far away. Instead they fall towards the ground.
  • Leads into new combos midscreen
  • During OD guard point added
  • No longer wall-bounces in the corner

 

Normal Throws

  • Faster startup for Forward Grab
  • Damage: 1500 ->1400
  • More recovery when you miss any grab.

 

A Sledge

  • Causes wall splat at corner.
  • Seems to go through bursts
  • Aerial Hit knockback decreased.

 

B Sledge

  • Normal Hit is +8(9?) and now can be connected with 5A or 2A
  • Easier to combo from on air hit because aerial hit causes opponent to float high.
  • Seems to go through bursts
  • P2 changed from: 92 -> 89
  • Frame advantage: +1 -> -2

 

Hammer

  • P2 changed from: 85 -> 90
  • Added guard point against high and mid attacks (Block Bursts)
  • Elimination of guard point for projectiles
  • Causes forced down (Can follow up with 5B in case of a CH)
  • Combo Rate Time: Normal -> Fast

 

Atomic Collider

  • Damage: 1000 - >1350
  • At midscreen can only be followed up with Spark or magnetized 5D and Gadget
  • P2 changed from: 80 -> 72
  • When Collider hits and slams the opponent to the ground, the opponent bounces less
  • Untechable time decreased

 

A Driver

  • P2 changed from: 15 -> 60

 

B Driver

  • P2 changed from: 15 -> 60
  • Mid-screen can be followed up with 5D (with magnetism) or Spark Bolt. Can be easily followed up in the corner.
  • Also has shorter recovery on whiff.
  • Damage: 3500 -> 3000
  • Doesn't cause a down.
  • Opponent flies up when hit by it.

 

C Driver

  • P2 changed from: 15 -> 60
  • Damage: 2800 -> 2700

 

Gadget

  • P2 changed from: 60 -> 80
  • Easier to combo after Gadget RC.

 

Spark Bolt

  • Combo Rate Time: Normal -> Fast

 

MTW

  • Proration Rate Fixed (proration will be only on Terra Break)
  • Magnetic Pull changed (When you get a hit with MTW without any magnetism and the opponent was behind you, the final hit will miss)
  • Able to tech after the final hit (can't connect with Gadget?)

 

Terra Break

  • Longer active frames ?
  • Wall-bounces in mid-screen. Wall-splats in the corner.
  • Leads into new combos

 

EDIT : removed proration table due to too many inconsistencies between different sources

 

Also couple important things from the videos i posted in the video thread here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9616-cp-20-iron-tager-video-thread/?p=854978

Meterless midscreen magnetized AC combos are back! Gadget whiff and AC whiff after 5D brings them back to you. 4D makes airborne opponent fall straight to the ground like JD. 5D has same move proration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoljeaDYZw&feature=youtu.be&t=10m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5uhiM3iSo&feature=youtu.be&t=7m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcfem2G2ufc&feature=youtu.be&t=1h01m03s

360B meterless corner combo 4341dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBytnySNYc&feature=youtu.be&t=5m7s
 

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Okay these midscreen wallbound combos are making me wet. This is the kind of crap I've been wanting from Tager since forever: just relentlessly bashing the opponent against every available surface. Also I'm sorry if it makes 6B worse overall, but being able to just mash it repeatedly in a combo looks like the most satisfying thing ever.

 

Also, heyo, AC is decent again.

 

And jeeze, that P1 on 5D is suddenly looking a lot nicer now that randomly tagging somebody with the move at ANY screen position can yield a legit combo. Again: exactly what I was hoping for. I am excite.

 

... dangit and I said I wasn't coming back to this game.

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2d already was 100 p1, or at least pretty high p1 iirc

 

Edit: yep, it had, they buffed the p2 of all his moves by roughly 10% or more, good stuff

Edited by mariusrhpsd

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well i'm retarded then

 

So what's going to happen to GP? Now that 6B ground bounds and 6C doesn't link after AC anymore, the two main ways of going into it are gone now. Seems like an indirect nerf to one of Tager's best combo enders.

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well i'm retarded then

 

So what's going to happen to GP? Now that 6B ground bounds and 6C doesn't link after AC anymore, the two main ways of going into it are gone now. Seems like an indirect nerf to one of Tager's best combo enders.

 

Eh, these change are so drastic that we just kinda need to wait and see what new stuff people come up with. His combos are really up in the air at the moment.

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well i'm retarded then

 

So what's going to happen to GP? Now that 6B ground bounds and 6C doesn't link after AC anymore, the two main ways of going into it are gone now. Seems like an indirect nerf to one of Tager's best combo enders.

 

I think this answers your question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_ZEpLdtwU&index=2&list=UUrGNVruyuifBK_GeeWN2Rgw&t=27m00s

and it seems we can still do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GVx6XCSFHI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m33s

 

 

 

Okay these midscreen wallbound combos are making me wet. This is the kind of crap I've been wanting from Tager since forever: just relentlessly bashing the opponent against every available surface. Also I'm sorry if it makes 6B worse overall, but being able to just mash it repeatedly in a combo looks like the most satisfying thing ever.

 

Also, heyo, AC is decent again.

 

And jeeze, that P1 on 5D is suddenly looking a lot nicer now that randomly tagging somebody with the move at ANY screen position can yield a legit combo. Again: exactly what I was hoping for. I am excite.

 

... dangit and I said I wasn't coming back to this game.

 

We can also start a ground combo off of air hit jD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha9vyNbd9GA&list=UUrGNVruyuifBK_GeeWN2Rgw&index=7&t=1m17s (i didnt post this Tagers videos because really sucks and doenst show much)

 

Im loving CP2 Tager also. The more we see the better he gets. A couple months from now we they lean his good stuff everyone here saying CP2 Tager sucks compared to CP1 will be changing their tune.

 

Later i will post combo examples they have discovered showing his new combo routes.

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I think this answers your question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_ZEpLdtwU&index=2&list=UUrGNVruyuifBK_GeeWN2Rgw&t=27m00s

and it seems we can still do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GVx6XCSFHI&feature=youtu.be&t=3m33s

 

 

 

 

We can also start a ground combo off of air hit jD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha9vyNbd9GA&list=UUrGNVruyuifBK_GeeWN2Rgw&index=7&t=1m17s (i didnt post this Tagers videos because really sucks and doenst show much)

 

Im loving CP2 Tager also. The more we see the better he gets. A couple months from now we they lean his good stuff everyone here saying CP2 Tager sucks compared to CP1 will be changing their tune.

 

Later i will post combo examples they have discovered showing his new combo routes.

 

I didn't know what you meant by getting a combo off of air hit jD at first. Then I watched the video. Then I came.

 

Also I was thinking earlier how I guess we can turn a max range 5C counterhit into a combo without spark pretty darn easily now. Maybe not so much on a regular hit.

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Finally we get to see new and improved Voltec Hammer. it should have been like this in the first place http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIpTcO4QvYg&feature=youtu.be&t=5m20s

 

Another example showing magnetized midscreen AC>5D>AC>5D 2927dmg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0jzabX6A8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=6m32s

 

is it me or they cut down the recovery of some of his moves? kinda to compensate for gcod maybe?

 

Thats the same question i asked earlier, seemed like it to me also from watching all the videos. i hope its true. Can anyone tell from looking at this part? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_ZEpLdtwU&index=2&list=UUrGNVruyuifBK_GeeWN2Rgw&t=27m08s Ragna does GCOD against Tagers 6A causing the following 3C to whiff, but Tager still recovers fast enough to block Ragnas 5B.

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It's just that CGOD is really slow, against Ragna, GCOD 720 done on 5B > 5C catches 5C in its very last frames, and Ragna 5C animation is almost as long as Tager 3C.

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Thanks for compiling all of the videos TagerTime, losing 6B overhead still kinda stings but all of these buffs to his midscreen combo potential have me excited. Loving the stealth buff to Hammer as well.

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guys

 

why do you care that 6B is not an overhead anymore

 

you have a 6 frame grab that still does 3k unburstable damage at midscreen and 4.3k in the corner, but you'd rather use a move that is as slow and easy to read as ragna's 6B?

 

if you want to use ragna overheads, just play ragna instead

 

god

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Because obviously in every single situation that you can get hit by an overhead, you can get a command grab instead. Totally. 100%. He obviously is a master of fighting games and we should listen to him as the god that he is.

 

I mean, so what that in pretty much every situation you'd use 6B, using 360B would get you a purple grab that's the most easily techable thing in the world. Overheads useless if you have a command grab, heard here first in the Tager forums. SPREAD THE WORD

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I mean, so what that in pretty much every situation you'd use 6B, using 360B would get you a purple grab that's the most easily techable thing in the world.

 

Which situations are you talking about? Excluding 5C, all normals that Tager can gatling into 6B are level 3 or less so you can get non-purple command grab around the same speed as 6B would hit the opponent. And I don't think I've ever seen a Tager actually do 5C > 6B as a blockstring.

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If you wait, sure. But if you break them out at the same speed, it'll be purple, and it's Tager being in motion that you want out of 6B to scare people into staying where they are. Not to mention that you obviously don't want to be just throwing out a command grab in every situation, that's not mix-up.

 

Fact is, Tager lost a mix-up option to get a move turned purely into a combo tool - and it's not even as good of a combo tool as current 6B is, it's just a combo ender. That hurts no matter how you analyze it.

 

Either way, it wasn't supposed to be an all-encompassing, informative post. It was a dumbass response to a dumbass post.

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Because obviously in every single situation that you can get hit by an overhead, you can get a command grab instead. Totally. 100%. He obviously is a master of fighting games and we should listen to him as the god that he is.

 

I mean, so what that in pretty much every situation you'd use 6B, using 360B would get you a purple grab that's the most easily techable thing in the world. Overheads useless if you have a command grab, heard here first in the Tager forums. SPREAD THE WORD

 

Yes, that is what I'm saying. If someone gets hit by a 6B, it means two things:

 

1) They were blocking low.

2) They didn't try to jump/mash/DP/whatever.

 

You'll notice that this is the same situation you want to setup when going for 360. Since you mention purple throws, let me clarify; adjusting the timing for tick throw situations, 360B is 11 frames. Also, I never claimed that the two are the same. This is me evaluating two moves with similar conditions for landing and deciding that one is always better.

 

If you wait, sure. But if you break them out at the same speed, it'll be purple, and it's Tager being in motion that you want out of 6B to scare people into staying where they are. Not to mention that you obviously don't want to be just throwing out a command grab in every situation, that's not mix-up.

 

Fact is, Tager lost a mix-up option to get a move turned purely into a combo tool - and it's not even as good of a combo tool as current 6B is, it's just a combo ender. That hurts no matter how you analyze it.

 

Either way, it wasn't supposed to be an all-encompassing, informative post. It was a dumbass response to a dumbass post.

 

You mean you rely on 6B's startup animation to keep people from mashing out? This statement gives me the impression that you are looking at the two moves in a vacuum instead of considering Tager's entire moveset. You don't use 6B to keep people on the ground; that's what 5B and 2B are for. Instead of looking at only the overhead/throw properties of the two moves, look at the conditions you try to setup when you use either move. I find there's no difference in their usage, hence no difference in mix-up. Or do you think adding, say, an unblockable would enhance Tager's mix-up? Personally, I don't.

 

I don't see Tager's mix-up game as anything but low/throw, and I don't see anything wrong with him being that way. I use jabs and lows to keep people on the ground, then go for the 360 when I feel confident it'll work. If I end up getting mashed/jumped out, it doesn't mean 6B would've been the better choice, it just means I should have done something else, like 2B > delay 5B, or 5B > jc. It's a simple mix-up game, yes, but simple doesn't mean it isn't hard for the opponent to read, or that it doesn't force them to make a hard choice.

 

When it comes to Tager's mix-up, 360B does one thing and does it well. I can't say the same for 6B. And now that I'm not being facetious, perhaps we can try to have a meaningful discussion about this.

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Thanks for compiling all of the videos TagerTime, losing 6B overhead still kinda stings but all of these buffs to his midscreen combo potential have me excited. Loving the stealth buff to Hammer as well.

 

Your welcome i love posting videos that show Tager doing new stuff, unfortunately there hasn't been anymore decent videos of Tager doing anything lately.

 

Also I love the change to 6B. its not like tager no longer has an overhead. 6C was made better and faster to compensate for the change to 6B. Watching every one of of CP2 Tager's videos so far i see 6C being used in block strings and catching people alot more than i ever remember 6B being used.

 

Heres an example from twitter of the Damage they are getting off of 6C overhead starter. https://twitter.com/hashtag/cp2%E3%83%86%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AC%E3%83%BC?f=realtime&src=hash

 

non fatal, midscreen, no mag, with Meter

6C>delay JD>5C>6A>2C>Asledge>5C>6A>3C>ACwhiff>6A>Bsledge>6A>6C>AC>Dspark>OD>MW>TB>6B>6B>GF 7458 damage

 

non fatal, midscreen, no mag, Meterless

6C>J2C>5B>5C>5D>Gadget whiff>5C>Asledge>5B>5C>6A>3C>ACwhiff>5C>6A>2C>AC>Gadget 5215 damage

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5k meterless off an overhead. With no mag and no Spark Bolt. Okay.

 

Reminds me of CT Tager damage.

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I'm not going to get too deeply into it, because I'll freely admit I don't like most of Tager's changes and there's no reason to throw my opinion around when it's as negative as it is, but you're looking at it as if every situation in which you can land a 6B, you could've landed 360B, which is untrue. On an unmagnetized opponent, there are ranges in which 360B won't reach that you can hit and get a combo with off of 6B. Not to mention the potential for 6B meaties which will lead to more damage than a 360B if properly confirmed.

 

Regardless of how you look at it, Tager lost an option. I hate losing options that allow for diversity in choice and mix-up. And even though 6B has been relegated to just being a combo normal, it's not even as good at that as it was in CP1, so in my eyes that move got smacked down twice in usefulness.

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Mucky's mostly right about the 6B thing- it's really not a big deal.

 

Also, 6C starter combo damage looks really nice. 

 

What's the properties on 6C btw? JC on block? What normals can you cancel into and etc?

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So 6C is in fact faster? I remember people debating about it during loktests.

 

Also yeah I'm not losing sleep over 6B. I never really went for overheads anyway. Nor do I recall any Tager players going on about how good of a tool it was. It was always just sorta there.

 

Though if 6C is as amazing as it seems then maybe I WILL start going for overheads, lol.

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EDIT#1 : i updated my first post with full list of translated CP2 Tager changes

 

So 6C is in fact faster? I remember people debating about it during loktests.

Of course we dont know yet for sure but the general consensus was that it did look like it had faster startup, probably at least the same as current 6B now.

 

We should know everything this weekend if this magazine does come out.  EDIT#2 : supposedly the magazine came out and disappointingly only contained basic information.

In actual somewhat exciting news, Arcadia is putting out a 50 issue magazine detailing BBCP2 next weekend. A group of translators are probably going to get on that and hopefully we'll get tons of info from that.

 

 

Edit#3: More huge damage off of 6C overhead. I just saw this cool combo from Jbbs. We can finally do really good combos after TerraBreak like i wanted to before.

 

Midscreen non-magnetic force
6C>OD>MTW>TB> 5B>5C>5D >Gadget Whiff> 5C>6A>2C> AC> Horizontal spark>GP 7872 damage

http://jbbs.shitaraba.net/bbs/read.cgi/game/45148/1407882628/856

 

probably when optimized it can break 8k

 

ill try to post all of the good new Tager match videos tomarrow

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