Wake Up Reversal

[Uncivilized Elk]

2F huh? Well then, if my opponent is doing their oki game competently, fuck trying to wake-up anything for me - I'll just block, thanks.

[Dude Butts]

Having super narrow reversal frames is one of the things I like the most about the game, and I really respect arcsys for making the decision.  The correct answer to this thread is practice, practice, practice.  People had the same issues with FRCs being too specific, but the answer to that was always the same too.

[Uncivilized Elk]

People had the same issues with FRCs being too specific

But wasn't like the enire point of Xrd to make it more accessible, lol, hence why FRCs are gone?

[Poultrygeist]

2F huh? Well then, if my opponent is doing their oki game competently, fuck trying to wake-up anything for me - I'll just block, thanks.

As someone who plays a char without a meterless reversal (backdash aside), welcome to our world lol.  This is how I'd feel even if I had a DP TBH.  

[Dude Butts]

But wasn't like the enire point of Xrd to make it more accessible, lol, hence why FRCs are gone?

 

It can be more accessible without helping make the close game become a random shitfest.  This is a game with real defensive options, having reversals be frame specific makes going for one even riskier than usual, making them absolute last ditch options.  You can make the game accessible and more in line to how it's meant to be played without making it "guess the shoryuken"  SFIV.  

[Uncivilized Elk]

It can be more accessible without helping make the close game become a random shitfest.  This is a game with real defensive options, having reversals be frame specific makes going for one even riskier than usual, making them absolute last ditch options.  You can make the game accessible and more in line to how it's meant to be played without making it "guess the shoryuken"  SFIV.  

Haha, well while I felt like +R on PSN was basically guess the shoryuken, I feel like they could have made it 3 or 4 frames instead of 2 though. I still haven't cleared the reversal mission -  reversals are definitely not accessible to new players by any stretch. 

And people who are amazing at frame-specific timing can still make the game a "shitfest" by your logic, so I find "if it was easier it'd be a shitfest" a bad argument in general. Again that just makes the "shitfest" not easily accessible, it by no means removes the shitfest.

[Dude Butts]

in games with massive reversal windows you can just mash them out.  A good player, even one who can get wakeup reversals 99% of the time won't be able to get one during pressure unless they know exactly where it breaks.  This is what makes sf4's close game random garbage, even simple blockstrings are broken by reversal mash.  Some characters don't have any "true" blockstrings that can't be reversalled through.  In this game, you must first learn to utilize your REAL defensive options before reversals are even viable.  

 

Regardless, the actual defensive options are your better options 9 times out of 10.  These options include just defend, blitz shield, faultless defense, burst, and backdash.  Some of these options, either at the gain or cost of a bit of meter, offer much the same rewards as a reversal with far less or none of the risk.  

[Poultrygeist]

Well said.  TBH a lot of really good characters in games can get by with no meterless reversals.  

[Dude Butts]

oh I forgot dead angle attack also.  For what it's worth, I would trade the ability to do unsafe reversal moves entirely for the ability to just defend even 50% of the time.

[Blade]

Xrd doesn't accept the negative edge.

Even Arcade version of +R.

It was a development mistake in the console version.

 

What the heck?  How do you even play Eddie/Zato then?

[king of heart]

What the heck? How do you even play Eddie/Zato then?

It only works for shadow controls of course.

[Blade]

So you can't do stuff like Ky's CSE > YRC > CSE with Negative Edge anymore, but you can still use it for Eddie... who's brain fart was this?

 

Oh well... at least you can still machine-gun I-No's Chemical Love via YRC.

[4r5]

Fighting games are funny. Make something 1 frame big and you'll have to practice it religiously to achieve anything consistent. But double the window, to 2 frames, and you'll only need an initial investment of practice. Then it becomes like riding a bike. Make something 3 frames large and you might not need to practice at all. The difference a single frame can make.

I remember during Tekken 4's development, when they created Just Frame moves. When JF moves were 2f, people were finding and doing JF's without dedicating any practice. They were too easy. In the end, they went with JF's being 1f timing.

[Antaiseito]

 They were too easy. In the end, they went with JF's being 1f timing.

So, the next logical step after balancing for widescreen-format would be to switch to 120frames per second for fighting games?

Making stuff 1.5current frames or something...   ?^_^"

[Uncivilized Elk]

people were finding and doing JF's without dedicating any practice. 

Because a fighting game is about grinding just frames in training mode and not a mental battle against your opponent.

FFS.

Unless your just frame moves you're talking about are also situation-specific like reversals and aren't just links in a combo.

[Dude Butts]

Because a fighting game is about grinding just frames in training mode and not a mental battle against your opponent.

FFS.

Unless your just frame moves you're talking about are also situation-specific like reversals and aren't just links in a combo.

 

It's just as much about execution as it is about mindgames.  What else draws you to fighting games if it's not the fun of operating your character?  There are plenty of collectible cardgames, tic-tac-toe, turn based strategy games, and even texas hold 'em to curb you over if you don't want to throw technique into the competition.  Also you have divekick and niddhogg.

 

It's like a guitar soloist vs. dj ipad from capcom cup, a lot of the draw both player and spectator side is performing it and seeing if you can pull it off.  

[Blade]

In the end it comes down to who your opponent is, though.

 

If they can pressure you and pressure safely without taking much risk, then you have to just figure another way out.  Reversals aren't always the best way to do that anyway (BlazBlue's reversals for Ragna, Jin, and Haku-men is evidence of that).

[Narroo]

It's just as much about execution as it is about mindgames.  What else draws you to fighting games if it's not the fun of operating your character?  There are plenty of collectible cardgames, tic-tac-toe, turn based strategy games, and even texas hold 'em to curb you over if you don't want to throw technique into the competition.  Also you have divekick and niddhogg.

 

It's like a guitar soloist vs. dj ipad from capcom cup, a lot of the draw both player and spectator side is performing it and seeing if you can pull it off.  

I disagree.  Turn-based games aren't quite the same; you don't have that element of reaction.

 

For me, "operating the character" isn't fun because I spent 5 hours practicing one obnoxious combo; it's being able to quickly identify what the opponent is doing and react accordingly.  I like maneuvering them fluently; the difficulty of that inputs does not make it fun.

 

For example, my favorite type of one player games are shumps, like Touhou 7 (Village of Lost Souls Attack), Jamestown (Conquistador/Final Boss), and Ikaruga (Chapter 3; part 2)

I find that frantically smacking around a joystick to navigating a near-impossible wall of bullets coming at high speeds, playing at the edge of your notion and mind, is exhilarating beyond all else.  The controls are dead simple.  A joy-stick to move, a button to attack, and another one or two for bombs or miscellaneous mechanics.  The design of the game itself makes piloting fun.

 

That's part of my I like fighters.  It can give me the same feeling, but in a match against another person.  Deftly maneuvering through the opponents attacks and blocking is fun like nothing else.   Hard to execute mechanics don't make it fun.

[Uncivilized Elk]

What else draws you to fighting games if it's not the fun of operating your character?

Narroo said it well, but seriously, it's operating my character against an opponent. I can sometimes draw mild amusement from screwing around in training mode, but after about 15 hours of it I never want to enter training mode again for that game in my life if I can help it. Also, do you fail to comprehend that I can enjoy ALL the things you listed or something AND fighting games (tic-tac-toe though, the bloody fuck, guy?)? It seems like you do.

But this is not be about reversals anymore and is back to general execution difficulty...

Talking purely about wake-up reversals I still personally think they should have an extra frame or two tacked on for the window (this includes backdashes as well).

I understand the argument for small windows during other scenarios (thanks for that Butts), but on wake-up specifically, your character gets up in the same amount of frames each time. Therefore it isn't about reacting to the opponent's pressure, it's simply about did you grind it enough to do perform the input at the right time.

 

That is still pure addition of inaccessibility and nothing else.

[Narroo]

Narroo said it well, but seriously, it's operating my character against an opponent. I can sometimes draw mild amusement from screwing around in training mode, but after about 15 hours of it I never want to enter training mode again for that game in my life if I can help it. Also, do you fail to comprehend that I can enjoy ALL the things you listed or something AND fighting games (tic-tac-toe though, the bloody fuck, guy?)? It seems like you do.

But this is not be about reversals anymore and is back to general execution difficulty...

Talking purely about wake-up reversals I still personally think they should have an extra frame or two tacked on for the window (this includes backdashes as well).

I understand the argument for small windows during other scenarios (thanks for that Butts), but on wake-up specifically, your character gets up in the same amount of frames each time. Therefore it isn't about reacting to the opponent's pressure, it's simply about did you grind it enough to do perform the input at the right time.

 

That is still pure addition of inaccessibility and nothing else.

Well said, and to add to that: 

 

An example of overly easy reversals are Persona 4 reversals!  The reason why has nothing to do with buffer frames either; it's because it's done with a two-button command.  This completely changes the game because now you can block AND reversal  and the same time!  Traditionally, you have to choose one or the other, and if you pick the wrong time to reversal, you'll simply stop blocking.  By mashing Two button reversals you can be sure to get one out ASAP while still being safe!  Combine that with the fact that everyone has a reversal, the game turns into "Invincible Reversal Guessing: The game!"  Is the person your fighting mashing reversal?  If you drop the combo will you eat a "Big Gamble" into "Ziodyne?" (Come on, what the heck?)  If you go for a frame trap, will they reversal instead?  Good luck on Okizeme if you don't have a character with moves that safe against wakeup reversals! 

Guilty Gear does not have this issue, and increasing the buffer time would not cause it.  Ultimately, you have to commit to reversals and not everyone has them by design.

[Uncivilized Elk]

Short version: Making things have difficult execution windows for events that always have consistent timing (such as standing up after knockdowns), assuming that execution window does not play a role in other factors of gameplay (which for knockdowns it doesn't) is nothing but inaccessibility. 

[Dude Butts]

May I ask how long you've been playing fighting games?

[Uncivilized Elk]

It'd be wise to just simply do it in a PM - may I ask how long you've been using forums? Because that's spam (answer is only about 3 years that I've played fighting games seriously). And I'd rather not have more of the "play tic-tac-toe if you don't like training mode grinding" nonsense. Yeah if you played a lot of oldschool fighting games since you were a babby you'd likely be used to ridiculous precision, but being used to it because it was commonplace doesn't make it fine. 

[Dude Butts]

Actually I didn't start playing fighting games seriously until 2008 or 2009.  It wasn't so long ago that I had the exact same complaints as you, but I can tell you that if you continue to spend a lot of time playing these types of games, you might have a change of heart too.

 

After a lot more experience with these games, your brain will start to comprehend all of 60 frames per second as the resolution of information that it truly is, frame by frame.  It happens over such a gradual amount of time that you won't ever really notice it happening, but eventually you will come to realize it has happened.  Your hands will be so comfortable and in-tune with what you're seeing and hearing that everything will be heightened to the conscious level: reaction time, ability to plan the next sequence of actions, and the ability to predict what the enemy is going to do.  This isn't something specific to fighting games, it's something your brain does after a very long period of exposure to really anything (some experts speculate it's in the ballpark of 10,000 hours).  Ask anyone who's been doing anything for a really long time about it and they might share a similar anecdote.  

 

In regards to single-frame accuracy, I've gone from wanting more leniency (including reversal timings, frcs, command interpreting, links vs. chains, you name it) to actually preferring brutal just frame commands...  and I'm not even that good yet.  Less leniency actually means more specificity.  The ability to be more specific with your commands is ALWAYS a good thing, especially as the aggressor.  Every frame of specific input is just another potential option.  Each potential missed link is also a potential frame trap, tech trap, burst bait, throw tick, and so on.  Not only are narrow input windows not hard to hit after a while, they actually create opportunities for you.  At some point you might even come to think this is a really big part of what makes fighting games fun: doing it!

 

My point isn't that I'm right and you're wrong, or that I'm good and you're bad.  Actually, it's meant to be a point of comfort, because you're going to go through the same natural progression that everyone goes through whether you want to or not, so long as you keep playing.  Not only do I think you can reach the stage where 1-2 frame windows don't seem hard to you anymore, I think you absolutely will reach that stage whether you want to or not!

[Dude Butts]

Honestly I think BD wouldnt be a terrible option, You can mash it like all the pros suggest lol. But honestly on a char with a great backdash like Sin it seems like a legitimate option.

 

not only is it not terrible, backdash is probably your best catch-all option.  99% of the time you think you want to reversal dp, a reversal backdash could actually get you so much more, and much more safely.