Wake Up Reversal

[Narroo]

Actually I didn't start playing fighting games seriously until 2008 or 2009.  It wasn't so long ago that I had the exact same complaints as you, but I can tell you that if you continue to spend a lot of time playing these types of games, you might have a change of heart too.

 

After a lot more experience with these games, your brain will start to comprehend all of 60 frames per second as the resolution of information that it truly is, frame by frame.  It happens over such a gradual amount of time that you won't ever really notice it happening, but eventually you will come to realize it has happened.  Your hands will be so comfortable and in-tune with what you're seeing and hearing that everything will be heightened to the conscious level: reaction time, ability to plan the next sequence of actions, and the ability to predict what the enemy is going to do.  This isn't something specific to fighting games, it's something your brain does after a very long period of exposure to really anything (some experts speculate it's in the ballpark of 10,000 hours).  Ask anyone who's been doing anything for a really long time about it and they might share a similar anecdote. 

That's tiring.  Honestly I'm better at Bullet Hell Shumps than fighting games, and that zone your describing is both very fun and very tiring.  Having used that hyper-focus before on dodging hundreds of bullets, I can tell you that I don't want to have to use that same level of effort in order to simply wake-up reversal because I'd only be able to play one, maybe two, matches, before having to take a break.

[Dude Butts]

I don't think you understand, I'm not describing an active conscious ability.  It's a permanent heightened overall cognizance and totally passive.  Don't you feel like you have an overall heightened awareness about bullet hell shmups that you didn't have even 1 or 2 years after you started playing them?  You're better at them now while completely relaxed than you used to be completely nerve wracked, right?

[Xtra_Zero]

I swear negative edge has existed in GG for a long time?  I remember playing vanilla XX in arcades and having no problem with reversals, also in +R arcades.

[4r5]

They have. I used to do reversal supers as 6321461+neg edge the button.

Clearly they can do negative edge, since that is the basis for controlling Eddie. Someone at ArcSys must not like it.

Negative edge tends to be the basis for a lot of option selects. It's clear that they care about the visceral feeling of the game. It's why there is no hold to tech, and why the buffer is so small. It's why I-No's airthrow range got nerfed, but she was given a command airthrow. And why Potemkin's Heat Knuckle Extend is not automatically done for the player.

OS's and auto stuff removes the feeling of involvement with your character. I can understand why they would remove negative edge.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Now I see why I couldn't reversal with throw like I used to in Reload and AC

 

Oh well, guess it can't be helped.

[Circuitous]

As much as the comparison between fighting games and chess is made... fighting games are not purely a mental match between you and your opponent. The mechanical battle between you and the character exists for a reason. Characters and systems have varying levels of abstract difficulty layered on top of them by design. You not wanting to be bothered with learning how to operate within a 2F window and intentionally holding yourself back is not the game's concern.

We could easily have a fighting game where every command is made available to you as easily as a thought, and the only difficulty is in reading and countering your opponent. It might even be fun. But Guilty Gear isn't that game. Sorry.

[Uncivilized Elk]

You not wanting to be bothered with learning how to operate within a 2F window and intentionally holding yourself back is not the game's concern.

We could easily have a fighting game where every command is made available to you as easily as a thought

Asking for an extra frame or two on a timing window that is CONSISTENT and NOT affected by your opponent is not at all comparable to this massive hyperbole you are constructing.

 

Also the game has no concerns. It's a fucking game. We're talking development choices, FFS -_-.

Jesus Christ at least address the actual argument if you're gonna defend harder timing purely for the sake of harder timing, instead of trying to pull off this facade that it's a broad over-arching issue that spreads into the rest of the game.

No. This is wake-up reversals. This is specifically wake-up reversals.

Repeat after me. Wake-up reverals. Not reversals out of blockstun gaps - that can stay 2 frames because that does have actual implications for gameplay. NOT playing a game where the input you want automatically and magically comes out on the first possible frame every time.

Thread title. Discuss that. Not vague generalities.

 

And I'm gonna repeat it again, a game that adds on difficulty that exists for no reason other than making a mechanic more difficult is engaging in bad design. 

[Dude Butts]

As much as the comparison between fighting games and chess is made... fighting games are not purely a mental match between you and your opponent. The mechanical battle between you and the character exists for a reason. Characters and systems have varying levels of abstract difficulty layered on top of them by design. You not wanting to be bothered with learning how to operate within a 2F window and intentionally holding yourself back is not the game's concern.

We could easily have a fighting game where every command is made available to you as easily as a thought, and the only difficulty is in reading and countering your opponent. It might even be fun. But Guilty Gear isn't that game. Sorry.

 

This.

 

And I'm gonna repeat it again, a game that adds on difficulty that exists for no reason other than making a mechanic more difficult is engaging in bad design. 

 

I'm sorry, but all this convinces me of is that you're just not very good yet.  I guarantee the better you get at fighting games the more you will disagree with this statement.  It is not difficulty, it's specificity.  A reversal is when you do a special move on the first frame it's available.  2 frames is technically twice as generous as it needs to be.  It's just not that hard.  Just like 1 and 2 frame FRCs, all of us complained when we weren't good yet until we could do them to the point that they were not hard at all, which was around the point that we realized that hitting them was consistent with the things we actually like about fighting games.  

 

If your major stance is that you should always get what you think you want without having to perform or time it correctly, I think you should seriously consider playing another game.

[Uncivilized Elk]

always get what you think you want 

OHMYFUCKINGGOD.

HOW MANY TIMES? 

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? I just made a long-ass rant in the very post you quoted and we still have this shit? One brain meltdown on my part wan't enough? Do I need to break my table with my face?

WAKE-UP REVERSALS. 

W.A.K.E.-U.P. -space- R.E.V.E.R.S.A.L.S.

Is it sinking in yet or are we gonna have 7 more posts about how I want every move to come out exactly when I want it at all times (which is goddamn impossible even in Divekick because we operate through these things called neurons)?

PLEASE. UNDERSTAND. Wanting 1 or 2 more frames on one specific and constant aspect of gameplay is not wanting the entire game's execution barrier removed. 

 

Holy hell.

 

 Just like 1 and 2 frame FRC

Which Xrd scrapped, because having large windows on FRCs has actual implications for the game beyond difficulty of execution. Therefore to make it more accessible they had to redesign the _RC system entirely.

Easier wake-up reversals have no implications for gameplay aside for making people with poor execution not do them. They aren't in a category even comparable to FRCs.

 

 

P.S. Something that needs a lot of practice to be good at is an acceptable and very commonly used definition of hard. Please consult your nearest dictionary. 

[Uncivilized Elk]

Here's a shitty scenario: I'm sure there could be a better one but screw it, it still works better than your FRC comparison:
All grounded combos in GG are now 2 frame-links. On block you can still delay moves and keep variant blockstrings up, but on hit to perform the combo from P>K>S>H or whatever you have 2 frames between each move you have to nail (and let us assume there are no combos that you have to delay the move a bit for it to work for the sake of this comparison, as I said it's not perfectly mirroring the absolutely consistent conditions for wake-up reversals).

Look, it'll still be easy for you after you learn it right since it's consistent!?(Goodbye 25+ hours of my life.) Well fuck that, because nobody wants to deal with shit like that. The only reason you're accepting of it is because you already can perform it, and thus don't want your effort invalidated. And that statement is far more apt than the strawman you continue to construct about me.

Yes I'm aware fighting games do this. It's bad design.


Hey let's make Dark Souls harder by making R1 to R1 swings a 1 frame link! No, screw that shit - it is bad design, when, as I repeat, making it easier has no alterations to the gameplay besides more people being able to perform it.

[9:02 PM]

 

And I'm gonna repeat it again, a game that adds on difficulty that exists for no reason other than making a mechanic more difficult is engaging in bad design. 

 

I think you're looking at it from the wrong side. It can certainly be frustrating to not be able to reverse obvious meaties without having impeccable timing, and feeling overwhelmed on defense is a pretty common complaint about anime games, but it's much more important that people be able to utilize fundamentals and capitalize off of basic combos into a knockdown to mount an offense without having to deal with the constant threat of lazy wake up reversals, especially in a game where they can be RCed to get frame advantage or get big damage.

 

From a developer's perspective, you have two options.

 

1) You can put the impetus on players to learn one timing, which is the reversal window for their character as small as it may be, and require them to execute their reversals in that window

 

OR

 

2) In order for them to avoid wake up reversals and allow them to execute a basic gameplan of knockdown > frame advantage > mix up, you can require them to learn safe jumps and meaty set ups for a cast of 17 characters which all have unique wake up timings (both face down and face up) and a plethora of different reversal options from backdash, to blitz shield, super, and volcanic viper.

 

Making the reversal window small is by far the lesser of two evils. 

[Uncivilized Elk]

2) In order for them to avoid wake up reversals

OK - I hope I'm just missing some big fundamental picture here because the argument against me keeps simply being "you want everything you think that moment". 

How, at high levels of play, when people can do wake-up reversals properly pretty much every time (Butts is saying it's easy after all), how does having a strict window make "them avoid wake up reversals" (because you're setting up 1 and 2 as exclusive here)?

What's the difference between a "lazy wake-up reversal" in the sense that most people with mild proficiency in fighting games can get the timing, versus a reversal that was timed to the stricter window by somebody who can nail it every time? Please elucidate me if I'm missing something super obvious here. I see zero difference.

EDIT: Thought of one if the buffering window is large enough: the only difference I see is that it's still worse for people who don't practice wake-up revs because the input can be buffered earlier and they get locked into their reversal, whereas somebody who waits an extra couple frames may decide not to press the button to execute a DP and decide to block instead. (Think of the horrible Smash Brawl game, it had a 10 frame buffer, so so if you pressed air dodge in attempt to dodge a hit, if you got hit first often your air dodge comes out immediately after you leave hitstun and this could be horribly disadvantageous.)

 

Also, +R wake-up reversals are easy IMO. I don't see people shitting on +R wake-up reversals.

[9:02 PM]

OK - I hope I'm just missing some big fundamental picture here because the argument against me keeps simply being "you want everything you think that moment". 

How, at high levels of play, when people can do wake-up reversals properly pretty much every time (Butts is saying it's easy after all), how does having a strict window make "them avoid wake up reversals"?

What's the difference between a "lazy wake-up reversal" in the sense that most people with mild proficiency in fighting games can get the timing versus a reversal that was timed to the stricter window? Please elucidate me if I'm missing something super obvious here.

 

High level play is totally irrelevant here. If both players know what they're doing, player one is expected to be able to find a two frame window that is ALWAYS in the same place should he want it, and player two is expected to either do a meaty or oki set up that is DP safe, or take their chances knowing that their DP punish is strong enough that the reward for potentially baiting it in any given situation outweighs the risk of having their offense reversed.

 

The point is that for new or even experienced casual players, their ability to do a simple combo into knockdown, get frame advantage, and mount a simple high/low/throw offense without learning safe jump and oki setups for the entire cast supersedes their need to volcanic viper on wake up.

You give new players one thing to learn (their reversal timing) instead of like 34, which would be safe meaty set ups for face up and face down knockdowns on every character in the game.

 

If you want to get yourself above that basic level, you either need to find your two frame reversal window or learn how to block on wake up.

[Uncivilized Elk]

If you want to get yourself above that basic level, you either need to find your two frame reversal window or learn how to block on wake up.

Your argument for strict reversal windows is that beginners won't learn other fundamentals if it's slightly easier...?

Am I comprehending this right?

[9:02 PM]

Your argument for strict reversal windows is that beginners won't learn other fundamentals if it's slightly easier...?

Am I comprehending this right?

 

Character specific safe jumps are not fundamental in a game with 34 different wake up timings. Learning how to hit your character's reversal window is.

 

So yes.

[Uncivilized Elk]

Character specific safe jumps are not fundamental in a game with 34 different wake up timings. Learning how to hit your character's reversal window is.

 

So yes.

So beginners failed to learn fundamentals in +R?

K...

[Dude Butts]

OHMYFUCKINGGOD.

HOW MANY TIMES? 

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS? I just made a long-ass rant in the very post you quoted and we still have this shit? One brain meltdown on my part wan't enough? Do I need to break my table with my face?

WAKE-UP REVERSALS. 

W.A.K.E.-U.P. -space- R.E.V.E.R.S.A.L.S.

Is it sinking in yet or are we gonna have 7 more posts about how I want every move to come out exactly when I want it at all times (which is goddamn impossible even in Divekick because we operate through these things called neurons)?

PLEASE. UNDERSTAND. Wanting 1 or 2 more frames on one specific and constant aspect of gameplay is not wanting the entire game's execution barrier removed. 

 

Holy hell.

 

Which Xrd scrapped, because having large windows on FRCs has actual implications for the game beyond difficulty of execution. Therefore to make it more accessible they had to redesign the _RC system entirely.

Easier wake-up reversals have no implications for gameplay aside for making people with poor execution not do them. They aren't in a category even comparable to FRCs.

 

 

P.S. Something that needs a lot of practice to be good at is an acceptable and very commonly used definition of hard. Please consult your nearest dictionary. 

 

 

This is really uncalled for.  I'll be frank.  I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the sentiment echoed by a lot of fighting game fans if not the majority of people who loves this game and were drawn to it because of its difficulty, and how that contributes to spreading the skill gap: If you cannot perform something as consistently as your opponent, you are not as good as him/her and you deserve to lose to them.  It is not the game's fault that you are bad, it is your fault that you are bad.  It is not bad design, it was a calculated decision with very good reasons behind it.  Stop complaining and get over your fear of learning or find a new game.

[Zouf]

2f reversal window is short. It's not easy.

 

I like it. I don't really enjoy when your okizeme is a guessfest. It's not fun, it's just random. Some people would say it's mindgame, but then again mindgame is just randomness. Adding difficulties to do reversals makes sense in this game because of blitzshield. A reversal that is "safe" and has 12 actives frames would be too strong with a loose reversal window.

[Circuitous]

Asking for an extra frame or two on a timing window that is CONSISTENT and NOT affected by your opponent is not at all comparable to this massive hyperbole you are constructing.

 

Also the game has no concerns. It's a fucking game. We're talking development choices, FFS -_-.

Jesus Christ at least address the actual argument if you're gonna defend harder timing purely for the sake of harder timing, instead of trying to pull off this facade that it's a broad over-arching issue that spreads into the rest of the game.

No. This is wake-up reversals. This is specifically wake-up reversals.

Repeat after me. Wake-up reverals. Not reversals out of blockstun gaps - that can stay 2 frames because that does have actual implications for gameplay. NOT playing a game where the input you want automatically and magically comes out on the first possible frame every time.

Thread title. Discuss that. Not vague generalities.

 

And I'm gonna repeat it again, a game that adds on difficulty that exists for no reason other than making a mechanic more difficult is engaging in bad design.

You're an idiot. Let me just start off with that.

When I say "the game is not concerned," I mean the game and everything that went into it. The developers are not concerned with your need for more lenient wake-up timing. The community is not concerned with your inability to learn and work within a particular gap. Do you follow?

My argument - that what you want is to always be able to execute your desired attack at any given time - is not invalid in the instance of wanting a larger reversal window. I don't care that you're only asking for a larger wake-up reversal window, specifically. (Even if that reversal window is shared with blockstring reversals...) You want the game to immediately give you the option of simply choosing whether or not to do a reversal. You don't care that the developers have decided that wake-up reversals need a sense of risk. You don't care that everyone is on a level playing field, and the only thing holding you back is your own willingness to practice.

At high-level, anyone can wake-up reversal. They simply have to do so. In that same two-frame window as everyone else. They get theirs more consistently because they're better at it than you. This is a mark of their skill, of their understanding of the game. You want that taken away because... you're lazy? You've decided it's bad design? (The implication being that good design gives you what you want, when you want it, which is exactly what I illustrated above. You considered it ludicrous.)

Good design is giving a player the ability to show that they can do a wake-up reversal, they have learned that timing, and the offensive player now must respect that option. If any idiot can do wakeup reversal, oki just becomes rock paper scissors. Do I bait the reversal, or no? This is a fairly common complaint leveled at games like P4A, and with good reason.

Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is what fighting games are. Some moves are harder to do than others. Some characters are harder to use than others. These are things we the player accept because they're something to work towards, an accomplishment. Doing flashy, hard shit is something people notice and can respect. That's why we tolerate it.

If you want to convince ASW to lengthen the reversal window, send them an email. Don't shit up my forum.

[Maho]

Adding difficulties to do reversals makes sense in this game because of blitzshield. A reversal that is "safe" and has 12 actives frames would be too strong with a loose reversal window.

There's an easy solution to that, if they didn't removed negative edge for some reason I'm not aware of, reversals special moves would have been a bit easier and blitzshield wouldn't get too good.

[SquizzleBopped]

       This topic has gotten nuts in the last few days. While I agree with both sides of this weird argument, i have to remind you all that this post was made in order to help one another. Not argue/degrade/or even attack the game mechanics; never mind one another. While i wish the window was larger or that negative edge still played a factor, the hard facts are that Xrd doesn't play that way.

       So, instead of yipping at each other over the "only a true master" argument can we get back to the main point. Help and support in the community. Tips/tricks/cues! If your contribution is "L2 Practice mode" thats fine we have that opinion covered please refrain from repeating the advice. If you have something to add though, THEN post.

       

i.e  Ive come to find that Sin, on face down knockdown will slam his fist in frustration. If you input DP at the moment he raises his fist you'll get reversal like 70% of the time.

       

^ That is what I'd like this topic to transition to. Small cues, be them audio or visual that can give someone having trouble a reference point. Any of the old heads here who find these DP's real easy, make a video or something next time your bored. Grab a handful of characters and see if you cant find a accessible way to translate their individual reversal timing.                                                                  

                         I write this with best intentions. So please while all opinions are welcome, lets try to actually tackle the challenge together. 

[Poultrygeist]

I think GG would benefit from a buffer but I'm fine with the reversal window.  Do you really want a character like Sol with his annoying as shit offense to also be able to disrespect YOUR offense when you disrupt his gameplan?  

[SynikaL]

Street Fighter iV has caused some very unfortunate social conditioning. 

 

One thing I will say is that Xrd doesn't provide the tools to actually learn the Reversal timing, which is silly, considering the challenge mode is essentially supposed to be a 101 to Xrd/Fighting Games. I'm sitting in Challenge 26 right now, and it's frustrating because I'd like to Practice the timing for Reversal Blitz Shield, but the game offers no hint of when the timing is, or even a demonstration video that I can utilize to eyeball it. So I get it once every few tries by accident and hope to get the timing by simple trial and error. That's dumb. Especially considering the last game offered a much more simple and subtle (yet more effective) indicator of it's most execution-heavy systems mechanic in FRC and that actually helped you learn it. 

 

 

-Kimosabae 

[Narroo]

Hm, the problem with the argument claiming that 2F reversals is good is that it is fatally non-specific.  If having a shorter, more difficult, time-frame is good, why not have a 1F window?  Or would even 3F be short enough?  What's a good length?

 

To take the argument to the logical extreme, why not have reversal input window less than a frame?  Having timings under 1F generally goes against FG design, but it's not impossible. What's the shortest time possible for the PS3 to reliably detect?  We could have 1 ms (~1/16th of a frame) reversal frames, would that make the game more fun, better?  If not, why?

 

If near infinitely short reversal frames are not good, that would be there is a finite optimal value somewhere that would be perfect.  What is this value and what is the argument that proves it is optimal?

 

Until you can provide that, this argument will go nowhere.

[SynikaL]

Hm, the problem with the argument claiming that 2F reversals is good is that it is fatally non-specific.  If having a shorter, more difficult, time-frame is good, why not have a 1F window?  Or would even 3F be short enough?  What's a good length?

 

To take the argument to the logical extreme, why not have reversal input window less than a frame?  Having timings under 1F generally goes against FG design, but it's not impossible. What's the shortest time possible for the PS3 to reliably detect?  We could have 1 ms (~1/16th of a frame) reversal frames, would that make the game more fun, better?  If not, why?

 

If near infinitely short reversal frames are not good, that would be there is a finite optimal value somewhere that would be perfect.  What is this value and what is the argument that proves it is optimal?

 

Until you can provide that, this argument will go nowhere.

 

 

This is one of the absolute stupidest things I've read. What's worse, is that you probably thought you were clever when you wrote it. 

 

 

Yeah, measurements and standards are arbitrary, thanks for enlightening us.