Wake Up Reversal

[4r5]

you don't need to do the whole motion in 2f, you just have to time the last input within those 2f

If you can't use the tools at your disposal even if you make the correct read, that's hardly a battle of "wits", and becomes a silly execution barrier.

it's not a battle of just wits. it's a battle of wits and skill

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I had a long write-up at first but gave up so here's the short version:

 

Wakeup DP is such a fundamental part of a fighting game I don't think it should be this difficult to use. 

 

I'm not saying we need a bazillion-frame buffer for wake-up reversals but a 2F one is a very welcome addition. When I beat someone trying to do something on wake-up I want to know I beat them because I outplayed them not because they outplayed themselves. Beating them because I called out their DP and blocked/spaced it and blew them up is far, far more satisfying to me than knowing they missed the 1F window.

[Tofma]

I'm shocked someone was retarded enough to not notice that the IB removal suggestion was a joke. Even when I copypasted the guy 2 posts above mine and implied that we had an agreement on reversal windows (My stance is quit whining and practice, but hey you got what you wanted now in 1.1)

[Dude Butts]

If you can't use the tools at your disposal even if you make the correct read, that's hardly a battle of "wits", and becomes a silly execution barrier. Just as inputs can be too easy, they can be too hard as well. They're going for a more lenient window now.

 

If you can already deal with the current inputs, then I really don't know what you're so annoyed by, or afraid of. That people will be able to do what they want to do? That more players will pick up the game since it's easier to play? Is the game going to change at all for players who could already deal with 2f buffers? I don't think so, so what's the problem?

 

the "silly" execution barrier is what makes it a fighting game imo and not something else

[Vowtz]

Some posts mentioned how good is the fact that it is difficult to execute reversals, and how guilty gear is liked for its precise execution in all these years.

I want to remember you guys that both on GGX AND GGXX to wake up on dragon punch was VERY EASY, even a newborn child could do it. Now we see people almost losing their fingers to do the reversal mission.

Well, this matter is already settled, it is gonna be patched to improve the input window, all "pros" will still to do it, and new players will be able to get rid of poorly executed okis.

The only ones who will suffer are those who abuse crappy mixups because common people cannot escape it.

[Dude Butts]

Some posts mentioned how good is the fact that it is difficult to execute reversals, and how guilty gear is liked for its precise execution in all these years.

I want to remember you guys that both on GGX AND GGXX to wake up on dragon punch was VERY EASY, even a newborn child could do it. Now we see people almost losing their fingers to do the reversal mission.

Well, this matter is already settled, it is gonna be patched to improve the input window, all "pros" will still to do it, and new players will be able to get rid of poorly executed okis.

The only ones who will suffer are those who abuse crappy mixups because common people cannot escape it.

 

what?  #r, 2f reversals.  ac, 2f reversals.  ac+r, 2f reversals.  I think slash had more lenient ones and everyone hated slash.

[Red Star]

The only ones who will suffer are those who abuse crappy mixups because common people cannot escape it.

This is what gets me. Playing SF4 if someone has 4 frame or more reversal you can safe jump after knockdowns. You usually had to whiff a normal  and then do a jumping attack and get it at the right frame to have it hit meaty if they block and be able to block if they reversal. The dude that gets knockdown can roll his face on his stick while having a stroke on his buttons and he will get his reversal to come out. I don't mind that I have to time my safe jumps so that I can start up safe pressure, but why does the guy on the ground have to not work at all to blow it up if I mess up?

Basically my gripe with the whole "I shouldn't have to work to do reversals" is that people have to time proper safe jump on oki so they aren't blown up by reversal. Is it really that wrong to ask the player that got knocked down to have a little timing with his reversals then as well?

[FinalDoomGuy]

I'm shocked someone was retarded enough to not notice that the IB removal suggestion was a joke. Even when I copypasted the guy 2 posts above mine and implied that we had an agreement on reversal windows (My stance is quit whining and practice, but hey you got what you wanted now in 1.1)

It was less being retarded and more trying to get discussion value out of shitposting.

[FinalDoomGuy]

 Simply having a DP does not entitle a character to be immune to all oki across the board.

Well, considering that the tight reversal window ceases to be a real issue once you get used to the execution of it, we'd be seeing high level Xrd (Or GG in general, everyone here ranting about uninitiated masses/sheeple/whatever is forgetting that reversal DP was really easy in those games too) having 0 okizeme if your argument had any merit to it. If a volcanic viper beats your oki, get better at setting up your oki.

 

The games are consistently chasing the bottom line, and the ignorant whining of new players like yourself can and have served to outweigh the praise of difficult and rewarding mechanics by devoted players.  This is a franchise that has barely survived, but due to its merits in conjunction with people who enjoy difficulty, it has stood the test of time.  

The contrasts between Xrd and the previous versions are best showcased by prevailing attitudes towards the game, which has been available a whole three months.  We're already kinda bored with it and waiting for the next version.  In my case, I would rather just keep playing +r.  This does not spell good things for the direction the game is taking.  This is what makes it worth listening to the voice of experience instead of fighting to legitimize your lack of ability.  

 

The core of the reversal buffer argument has not evolved from "I can't do it, I don't think I should have to learn how" vs. "learn how, and you'll likely learn why it's better this way along the road"

Again, it was easy to reversal DP in GG, so why even bother going back to Accent Core based on that? Clearly any old Sol or Ky could completely negate any okizeme with their super easy DP, right? How is pointing out that reversals becoming much harder in a game that was meant to be a bit more accessible is very silly and reverting that change legitimizing a lack of ability? Was negative edge somehow holding GG back because it made it easier for newer players to input stuff?

Also, what is this "We" business? This game is great fun, the update is just gravy.

[SquizzleBopped]

Lol. I like that you used gravy as an adjective. Nioce

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FinalDoomGuy]

Lol. I like that you used gravy as an adjective. Nioce

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a noun, gravy being something that isn't needed but still nice.

Probably should find out if any sayings I use are actually used outside of Scotland

[zaeris]

I cant tell how much of this is troling or stupidity or even maybe self entitlement of just wanting stuff. You know i too want to be like the pro starcraft 2 player but shit can be hard.

Anyway its bold making a statement that "reversal on wake is a fundamental" when not every fighting game has that system and not every character has a dp to begin with. We are looking at risk and reward for kd here which is the fundamental of gg where kd gives younan advanatage. But how do you argue you have a right to be able to perform wake up reversal easily when not every character has a dp in this game.

[Maho]

what?  #r, 2f reversals.  ac, 2f reversals.  ac+r, 2f reversals.  I think slash had more lenient ones and everyone hated slash.

Where did you get those numbers?

I don't know if it's only negative edge that makes the difference, but I just tried to do the reversal DP against Ky's meaty 6H from Xrd missions in #R PC, and it feels a lot easier to do.

[Renegade]

I hate how much of the "pro tough reversals" arguement comes down to "you suck newb, get better"

Let me be clear, I've played fighting games for 20 years.

I've played every Guilty Gear. I'm not a scrub.

They've never been this hard. This is the hardest game I've ever played to wakeup DP (save world warrior where it wasn't possible).

The question is, why?

For a game based on such stupid levels of offense, being able to perform reversals seems pretty key.

But they're so hard in this game I almost think it's an error in coding somewhere. I never had a problem in XX, slash or AC.

So, everyone stop patting your own back because you like obtuse execution barriers on simple mechanics.

Shit like this makes people quit, makes people not buy new shit, and you don't have a game or scene anymore.

[GSD-SPL]

5-frame buffer didn't make KoF casual.

 

Well, considering that the tight reversal window ceases to be a real issue once you get used to the execution of it, we'd be seeing high level Xrd (Or GG in general, everyone here ranting about uninitiated masses/sheeple/whatever is forgetting that reversal DP was really easy in those games too) having 0 okizeme if your argument had any merit to it. If a volcanic viper beats your oki, get better at setting up your oki.

I think you got my post wrong over the way I worded it. I literally meant a DP does not automatically make a character immune to all oki, and that a bigger frame buffer does not help in that regard.

[Dude Butts]

Where did you get those numbers?

I don't know if it's only negative edge that makes the difference, but I just tried to do the reversal DP against Ky's meaty 6H from Xrd missions in #R PC, and it feels a lot easier to do.

 

in the past I've loaded up the games in pcsx2 and had it run frame by frame and experimented for myself.  It's also how I got the numbers for my jump install thread in the archive.  I am that obsessive.  I'll try to post a video demonstrating so this weekend.  The reason it seems easier in the older games despite the exact same reversal window is probably negative edge.

[FinalDoomGuy]

I think you got my post wrong over the way I worded it. I literally meant a DP does not automatically make a character immune to all oki, and that a bigger frame buffer does not help in that regard.

Ah, my bad then.

[Renegade]

The reason it seems easier in the older games despite the exact same reversal window is probably negative edge.

NE is such a huge deal when you're talking about specials w only one button, Cuz it doubles your chances.

[Dude Butts]

just tested, looks like ggx is 1 frame, with negative edge effectively 2.  Claims that they were "so easy a baby could do it" in ggx appear to be a bald faced lie.

[Vowtz]

So, everyone stop patting your own back because you like obtuse execution barriers on simple mechanics.

Shit like this makes people quit, makes people not buy new shit, and you don't have a game or scene anymore.

It is clear that some people come here to say things like "I'm great, my execution is flawless, I work hard to make every frame count, I am the voice of experience", (that last one was really funny, I almost died laughing).

You should just ignore those, if going on the internet to talk big about themselves makes them happy, it's ok then, makes no difference for anyone else.

From a business point of view it is really obvious that it is better to get as much people as you can to enjoy your game so you can sell more, the cost is the same for a super nerd who trains 18 hours a day and a working guy who call his friends to play on weekends and likes to enter an online battle now and then.

For me personally, I just want more people to play it, calling myself "elite" and bragging about how I can get perfects in the corner with Zato is as far as possible from what I want.

The other point presented here is " guilty gear is great because of its difficulty".

If they want to believe that guilty gear is loved because of "execution difficulty and requirement of hours of training" instead of GREAT GRAPHICS, GREAT SOUNDTRACK, COOL CHARACTERS, HUGE DIVERSITY IN GAMEPLAY FROM ONE CHARACTER TO ANOTHER, CUSTOMIZABLE ROMAN CANCEL COMBOS, GREAT OVERDRIVES, LOTS OF OFFENSIVE, DEFENSIVE AND MOBILITY TOOLS FOR EACH CHARACTER, it is also their right to do so, people are different, and can have different opinions.

Where did you get those numbers?

I don't know if it's only negative edge that makes the difference, but I just tried to do the reversal DP against Ky's meaty 6H from Xrd missions in #R PC, and it feels a lot easier to do.

As you said, the difference seems to be the lack of negative edge on XRD. Maybe developers really want to get rid of negative edge, since they decided to increase buffer frames instead of putting it back.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Renegade: is that you, Robin? I didn't know you played GG like that.

 

Supposedly the buffer is larger in the next update, so maybe that will remedy these complaints, and people can learn the hard way not to wakeup DP.

[Renegade]

Renegade: is that you, Robin? I didn't know you played GG like that.

Supposedly the buffer is larger in the next update, so maybe that will remedy these complaints, and people can learn the hard way not to wakeup DP.

Yeah, it's me. I've played GG since the beginnings on ps1 and DC, and we had an XX cab when I was in college. Love it. The metal and lack of waifus was great...

Never got "elite" since my reflexes are too slow, but xx Johnny and slash ky helped that a lot.

I pretty much got completely out of playing seriously during the numerous times there wasn't an American version of the game to play on. So didn't play much AC at all.

[FinalDoomGuy]

Renegade: is that you, Robin? I didn't know you played GG like that.

 

Supposedly the buffer is larger in the next update, so maybe that will remedy these complaints, and people can learn the hard way not to wakeup DP.

That's the important part, since getting a new player to wakeup DP and telling them "So yeah that's a decent enough thing to do on wakeup but it's risky and I'll show you why" is more interesting for both players than "Oh, wakeup DP is finicky as fuck, just block I guess".

[Dusk Thanatos]

This topic is great.

The fact people are complaining about a 1f input buffer increase is even better.

Y'all are worse masochists than I am if you wanna drill wakeup options that hard. I'm not gonna say it's just a game, but I'd rather be thankful that I can spend more time playing and less time training. The meat of the game isn't going to change because DP has a 3f buffer instead of a 2f buffer now. And seriously, it was only, you know, basically a 3f buffer before because of negative edge. So iunno what everyone is on about.

[Dude Butts]

It is clear that some people come here to say things like "I'm great, my execution is flawless, I work hard to make every frame count

 

I never made this claim.  I've never bragged a single time in this thread about how good I may or may not be.  That topic has literally never once come up in this thread or any other.  The only thing I've presumed to have is more time with the game, or maybe fighting games in general.  I have simply argued for what will make the game better and preserve its depth and thereby its longevity. 

 

calling myself "elite" and bragging about how I can get perfects in the corner with Zato is as far as possible from what I want.

 

So let's get one thing straight:  you do want to win.  This is a good place to start.