Vs Elphelt

[Tiamat]

It depends where you are on the screen though.  If teleport is going to move you behind her so you're near the corner that could be bad.  I don't think dashing into it every single time is a good idea.  

[sylintasassyn]

It depends where you are on the screen though.  If teleport is going to move you behind her so you're near the corner that could be bad.  I don't think dashing into it every single time is a good idea.  

 

Trust me....it's not a good idea. lol  I agree with you completely.  A good player will take note the first time you do it....maybe they'll let you get away with it a second time but that's it. lol  I know that what I'm saying is probably falling on some deaf ears (not saying you, Tiamat) but I play against probably the best Elph in the U.S. lol  The matchup is a tough one if the Elph is really good.  

[Dullyanna]

Putting yourself right next to a pressure character and at disadvantage isn't really a good idea. Yeah she doesn't have grenade on you for now, but in a couple seconds she will and in the mean time you're very likely at - thus giving her pressure and time to get another grenade out anyways. Also yeah her cl.S means bad bedslams are going to get bodied, and because she can do it without directional input they don't even have to worry about crossup/non crossup.

[NecroTheReaper]

If you manage to knock her down and she feels like goin for reversal super, safejump j.S hits meaty, but strangely enough you cam 2P her after the superflash and it'll CH. Her super doesn't have a lot of invul does it?

[Poultrygeist]

If you manage to knock her down and she feels like goin for reversal super, safejump j.S hits meaty, but strangely enough you cam 2P her after the superflash and it'll CH. Her super doesn't have a lot of invul does it?

Honestly why bother when her reversal super is so bad it will clash with whatever lol.  

[Alkipot]

If you manage to knock her down and she feels like goin for reversal super, safejump j.S hits meaty, but strangely enough you cam 2P her after the superflash and it'll CH. Her super doesn't have a lot of invul does it?

If I suspect a wakeup super from her I just 882 on knockdown. Plenty of time for a big punish.

[GKHiryu]

Well here goes nothing.

I agree that the MU is on the harder side for Bedman. Elph's normals are an ass to play around, especially the air ones. I've got the best results (offline play, dedicated elph main) trying to bait airdashes with task A and careful 2/3H, then j.S'ing. J.S is very important for BE overall and it shines in this MU, being able to outrange most of her options and win against j.D if done right. j.S > Task B gives enough movement to evade grenades too. It's similar to Faust in that if you think for a second you can play real footsies then omae wa mou lost iru.

 

Another helpful thing is to block the strawberry and dash as it explodes, rather than do it earlier. That doesn't work too well if Elph's up close (duh), but if you have just a tiny bit of space to work with it nets good results, as the player will usually start doing something between strawberry throw and explosion.

 

HOWEVER

I'm getting completely and utterly raped by shotgun. I know BE has few options in defense in general, but I can't for the life of me believe that there's 5F delay anywhere between well placed shotgun attacks.

 

If my opp whips out the barfgun I can lay down the controller most of the time. Either I'm looking at 60-70% life loss before he gets bored and tries something else or he does it late in the match and I just don't get another chance. He simply cancels a normal into shotgun when I have the strawberry on me and does shot shot shot shot launch(S), shot shot shot launch. I've found nothing that may be used inbetween shotgun shots and my only hope so far was to predict/react to dash in strike. FD suggests that launch done perfectly after shot should give me as much as 32 frames to work with, but I've never managed to sqeeze in anything besides BS.

 

Should I just get some sleep and hit him out of launches?

[NecroTheReaper]

If the El your playing likes to do round start 2S, a slightly delayed 5K will beat it. If you CH, task B will combo and hopefully get ypu enough momentum before bullshit begins. She still has other options, but 2S seems like her most rewarding.

[Jais]

Anyone have a corner throw combo on her that actually KD's and is a close taskC seal?

I've given up on just settled for 5K > 5HS(1) xx BedSlam

Everyone else I do that solid combos so it feels real bad man ...

[NecroTheReaper]

Throw>f.S>j.K>j.S>3j.S>236HS

[Poultrygeist]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/9934-elphelt-vs-bedman/#entry915103

 

Let's analyze this for a second.  

It looks like a lot of this is elephant in the room (or should I say Elphelt in the room) stuff that a lot of us knew subconsciously but didn't want to acknowledge.  It's time to face it guys, this matchup is ass, genuinely ass.  We're going to have to bust our balls for this one but...how?  What are we to do?  Bedman got some great buffs in 1.1, but none of them really help him contend with her.  I mean, it's true that against most Elph we're probably home free once we get her on defensive, but we have to get through her ridiculous neutral and if she wins that (which she likely will) we have to risk dealing with her even worse offense.  So what are we to do?  I feel like a lot of times you have to fight the player rather than the character, because no two players have the same weaknesses, but that just leads me to another problem, she has a huge toolkit that lends itself well to a lot of different play styles.  I personally feel like Xrd is a game where any matchup can be overcome, including this one, but how?  What answers do you propose to her common threats?

[Tiamat]

At least grenade isn't like a meterless overdrive anymore.

 

Ground version of Bridal Express is now much easier to punish.  As long as you're not too far you can grab punish it.  If you're really close you can get 2P (this isn't new).

 

I don't agree with everything in that post but matchup is in her favor, just not as bad as before.  

[GcYoshi13]

Neutral against Elphelt is tricky but once she's knocked down, it's the same stuff against any character. Her reversal options are limited, so that's one mark against her.

 

 

- Recklessly air dashing attacking is generally a bad idea because her ground normals cover the air well. Her 6H has a massive hitbox so it's bad news.

- Most strings that have her pull pineberry is negative I believe. You can counter poke with far S or 2S I believe. It may not punish but I think you're still plus.

- Ground bridal express is negative unless the active frames hit very late. You can at least throw it. If done closer to you, you can punish with c.S if you IB.

- Air bridal express is +, even with IB. However if you chicken guard it, you can air grab her. You may also be able to land and punish her if you're close enough to the ground.

- Shotgun is brutal, IBing it will allow you to poke her out of it if she does something else. Be wary of command grab.

- Her unblockable set-up can be escaped by blitz shielding then moving (either walk or dash works). 

- 6P will beat most things she does in the air. It may clash with her air bridal express.

- Do the basic combos on her (still hurts). She doesn't combo well with the new air combos. You can do 5H,1H, jump, air dash downforward, jP, ground Task C, 2P, 5S, jP, Task B for a double seal BNB but your timing needs to be good. All other new combo variations (dust combos for example) work well on Elphelt.

- You can use pineberry as an easy way to dash yourself out of a corner.

- Be wary of how your hits interact with her pineberry. If she activates it but keeps it on herself, you may need to adjust your combo.

[Magaki]

The grenade nerf barely affected her really. You can check the Elphelt changes thread for more details on her changes and I also explained some things concerning the grenade nerf here (Was made before we had the 1.1 patch.Though, I forgot to mention Bedman amongst the characters who got troubles dealing with it.)

I thought the grenade change would actually help those 4 characters but after checking more JP matches and personal experience, it's still the same thing. They got no way to make you think in neutral: "Maybe I shouldn't do that".
And thus, that's essentially free space control.

About Bridal, be really careful with that because you need to consider whether you should attempt to punish it or not based on distance. An easy thing you can do with Elphelt is to push the opponent as far as possible then use Bridal that will make it + on block and leave you out of throw range.
To give you an idea of its possible frame advantange, Bridal is -5 point blank with 12 active frames. That means that if it gets blocked at the last active frame, it becomes +7. Though, you will rarely get +7 but if you consider that Elphelt got a 4f jab, it means that even a +1 will make a big difference.
Rather, the best answer to both ground and air Bridal is IB>throw OS. But that's, again, not guaranteed but still the safest and most likely option rather than getting pressure reset for free.

To better deal with her in defense, I would suggest you to check the Sol matchup thread and come up with optimized answers to whatever she could throw out like Raiden did.

As for neutral, I don't think it's really surprising that Bedman is badly struggling against her. I don't play him but the character I enjoy playing the most is Potemkin and against Elphelt, Venom or Ramlethal (1.0 Ram at least), it's always the same problem: They can throw shit on the screen and there is nothing you can do about it to make them think that doing that is a bad idea and I'm pretty sure that's the same problem for Bedman simply because his mobility sucks too.
Obviously, Bedman can win in that matchup. But that would mean being much better than the Elphelt player and still doing more efforts. If I had to choose, I would definetely pick a sub to deal with her rather than play Bedman. Faust and Millia being probably the best choices.

If you disagree with some stuff I've said though, please point it out and I'll be glad to discuss it.

[NecroTheReaper]

I wont disagree with anything other than someone saying El falls apart on defense vs Bedman. Her 5HS can catch you comin from our normally best 45° angle for airdash pressure, and her c.S can take out alnost anything else. Makin them block task A without a YRC is an end to pressure which is actually bad cuz vs her neutral is terrible, not to mention her 2HS can low profile it from any non point blank lvl 3 or higher move (meaning she can low profile 2HS>task A.

[Tiamat]

@Magaki

I didn't agree with the line about air throw being his best air to air. It's usually not a realistic option. j.P or j.S is best depending on distance. Also, I think j.D RC isn't used nearly as much as DV H YRC to j.D. Nitpicky stuff I suppose.

I'm just glad I won't have to worry about getting blown up by grenade when I am hitting with a combo or DAA. Pretty sad 236K still totally whiffs vs her crouch guard though.

@Necro

Don't forget you could use the jc on 2H to do TK 236P. Takes care of low profile attacks

[NecroTheReaper]

I've tried, it loses to 5HS, or at least trades unfavorably, as I was saying. Its a game of PRS that is entirely her favor and not very hard, considering she only ever has to really use 2 of 3 options.

[Poultrygeist]

I'm going to agree with Magaki on learning a separate character, although I don't know which ones are viable picks against Elph.  Bedman is not widely played enough that people even know anti-Elph tech for him, even in Japan.  Doesn't mean drop Bedman but I don't see this going well for us.  As he said, even if we're a million times better than the Elph player (unlikely considering how widely played she is) we're still going to be working harder anyway so where's the sense in that?  I guess you have to weigh how much it means to you.  

 

Since I don't want this thread to be nothing but complaining about a bad matchup, let's add some things I thought would be common knowledge but I don't want people reading to be potentially left in the dark.

 

Task A' does indeed wiff on crouching Elph.  I don't know why it does, but it does.  You also probably don't want to use it in corner dust combos

 

I'm not sure if 1.1 changes did anything about this, but if you teledash through one of her normals she can cancel to Bridal Express to get out of punish range depending on the timing and spacing.  You might be able to chase by throwing a Task A or using 3HS but this is theory fighter on my part and I haven't tested it much at all.

 

As Magaki said sniper rifle actually does things against us.  I'm not sure if you can 2HS/3HS on reaction to hit her out of it but I don't like doing that move without Task A to cover it.

[NecroTheReaper]

Sniper has actually become my biggest issue in this MU. She's able to control it fast enough to make any approach very dangerous, especially now that they made her able to get a full combo off CH with meter (sounds specific, but she never doesn't have enough meter). Dash is a huge risk to try since the shot is 3f startup, so she can just wait it out. Superjump task B YRC use to do things, maybe I should save my float to screw up their AA's, but still risky. Lets not forget her ability to go into any special from sniper as well ._.

With FD cancelling on airdash, maybe you can get in slowly without getting blown up, but its just been a really sad time. Maybe you can 883>FD>2/3HS to punish a blocked sniper shot but just looking at the numbers only gives you like a 3 or 4f window to find 2HS' sweet spot.

[GKHiryu]

What's 1.1 max damage combo on Elphelt midscreen? If I'm a bit to the side I know that chain > 5H(1) > 2H > JC > J.S > j.236S > Land > 2P > C.S > 236H works, but it's definitely on the situational side. Anyone found an optimal route after combo into 1H midscreen? I was hoping that 1H > sjc > filler > j.236H > pickup would be possible on Elphelt, but I can't solve the riddle of the filler.

[NecroTheReaper]

I personally dont think its possible to do an air task C combo on El.  You can do an 883j.P combo, which is still really tight (but still easier than on May) but leads to full combo and good damage/carry.  

[GKHiryu]

Thanks. I'll skip researching that then.

[GcYoshi13]

cS, 5H(2), 1H, super jump, float, air dash down forward, jP, ground Task C, 2P, cS, jump forward, jP, air Task B is very practical against Elphelt.

 

The sequence after 1H should be done quickly and you want hit jP where you land in time to link the ground Task C afterwards. 

 

It's very practical.

[NecroTheReaper]

This new layout is screwing me up, but thanks for giving the combo out.  I need to actually put it to use, but converting properly on El makes me scurred lol

[GcYoshi13]

This new layout is screwing me up, but thanks for giving the combo out.  I need to actually put it to use, but converting properly on El makes me scurred lol

you have a lot of indicators whether or not 5H is going to hit twice or not. The combo I listed above should mainly be used for either punishes, or empty air dash downforward into 2K (because you'll be right next to her after an empty air dash down forward).

Otherwise, cS, 5H(1) into Task B or 2D is a very safe bet.

Also note her crouching hitbox is huge horizontally, making 2H combos pretty reliable on her. Keep track whether or not she's crouching to chain 2S into 2H (or just chain it anyways since it's a blockstring/frametrap). 5H (1) -> 2H works well on her.