Jump to content
Anne

[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

Recommended Posts

Did they? Please tell me where this was said.

 

Haven't read anything direct, but the online survey now has the loketest 2 dates on it so they're collecting feedback again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if DT no longer occurred randomly, but could be triggered by pressing the RC command on the instant of a clash for 50% Tension? The person who triggered it would get a slight frame advantage, though it could still be turned against them.

for how long has the clash system been in and how often it is used outside of combo videos or pre-rendered intros?

guess takin' that into account, from game design POV it would be an option to tweak the system in order to give the players now and then enough time to react to the clashes happenin'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for how long has the clash system been in and how often it is used outside of combo videos or pre-rendered intros?

guess takin' that into account, from game design POV it would be an option to tweak the system in order to give the players now and then enough time to react to the clashes happenin'

It's been around a long time and it has its uses. If you can anticipate a clash, you can use it to combo. I see Johnny players do it more often than you'd think. When playing Sol, sometimes I'll clash a poke and quickly go into a Fafnir before a person can react. Danger Time is also annoying for its 3-2-1 countdown. GG is a pretty kinetic game and having this clash just STOP EVERYTHING is obnoxious and jarring. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think dt should just have the announcer yell out "danger!" And be done with it. Countdown is not really needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering how rare it is, I'm fine with the countdown since it's less than 3 actual seconds. Plus, gives the players a moment to think about what they're gonna do for that situation, whether it be going on the offensive or blocking initially. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't mind (dare I say, like) DT, I'll agree that the countdown isn't necessary. I'd be alright if the countdown was removed, forcing both players to react in somewhat the same way as a normal clash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering how rare it is, I'm fine with the countdown since it's less than 3 actual seconds. Plus, gives the players a moment to think about what they're gonna do for that situation, whether it be going on the offensive or blocking initially.

I keep getting Danger Time at around 60% of the times.

So i can't call it rare anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rare my friend was just over at my house and we got 4 danger times over 3h of game play. Id say like 30% of the clashes were danger time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think danger time should happen as a result of FULLY cranking the guard bar, then getting the hit that opens up the opponent, and honestly I wish guard bar cranked a little more quickly than it does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More vertical space control and a DP of sorts. Potemkin used to be good at maintaining momentum. He's not so good under pressure though. Potemkin is in that awkward spot where they're trying to balance him without him blowing up. Anime grappler + cancellable whiff attacks can potentially be true terror.

You mean like Clark's running tackle move?

http://youtu.be/qHji2GRZ2bM?t=1m11s

Man, KOF used to have so much personality. Now with the removed moves, it's boring like USF4. What does Pot need that won't break him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think danger time should happen as a result of FULLY cranking the guard bar, then getting the hit that opens up the opponent, and honestly I wish guard bar cranked a little more quickly than it does.

That would be interesting if it only affected the person with the full guard bar. The guard bar could be frozen and DT could last like only half the time it does now. Just to be safe though, add the on/off switch in the options menu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm not a huge fan of modifying a game in such a way like that. It shouldn't be like smash where people turn off items. I'm kind of a purist in that regard, I either deal with the stupid parts of a game or find something more to my liking.

I also usually tend to listen to full albums as opposed to single songs, but I'm weird like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also usually tend to listen to full albums as opposed to single songs, but I'm weird like that.

 

I respect the hell out of that.

The thing about comparing Xrd to Smash is that Smash wasn't originally built to be a competitive tournament fighter (according to the games' own lead designer), so people were kind of forced to modify the rule set to accommodate that purpose.  Xrd was very much designed as a competitive title, and should therefore work in tournament play "out of the box" without the need to toggle any major gameplay mechanics.

I kind of like the thought process behind Danger Time, but I think it was poorly implemented in the way it disrupts the normal flow of gameplay and can result in absurd comebacks the player didn't necessarily earn.  If I was put on the design team, I'd keep the mechanic and make three key changes:

1) Instead of happening randomly, DT would only activate after a specific number of clashes had happened within a single match.  For example, say it happens on every third clash.

2) Remove the countdown so as to minimize the disruption of gameplay.  A brief pause accompanied by the "Danger!" HUD display is all that's needed.

3) Revised rules for DT: Instead of lasting for a set period of time, the game stays in DT mode until one of the players lands a hit.  At that point, the very first hit (and ONLY the first hit) they land will be a Mortal Counter.  No damage increase.  This means a player could potentially capitalize on a DT hit with a very damaging combo, but they'd have to work for it and wouldn't be able to drain their opponent's entire life bar by trapping them in the corner and using them as a punching bag for ten seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I respect the hell out of that.

The thing about comparing Xrd to Smash is that Smash wasn't originally built to be a competitive tournament fighter (according to the games' own lead designer), so people were kind of forced to modify the rule set to accommodate that purpose.  Xrd was very much designed as a competitive title, and should therefore work in tournament play "out of the box" without the need to toggle any major gameplay mechanics.

I kind of like the thought process behind Danger Time, but I think it was poorly implemented in the way it disrupts the normal flow of gameplay and can result in absurd comebacks the player didn't necessarily earn.  If I was put on the design team, I'd keep the mechanic and make three key changes:

1) Instead of happening randomly, DT would only activate after a specific number of clashes had happened within a single match.  For example, say it happens on every third clash.

2) Remove the countdown so as to minimize the disruption of gameplay.  A brief pause accompanied by the "Danger!" HUD display is all that's needed.

3) Revised rules for DT: Instead of lasting for a set period of time, the game stays in DT mode until one of the players lands a hit.  At that point, the very first hit (and ONLY the first hit) they land will be a Mortal Counter.  No damage increase.  This means a player could potentially capitalize on a DT hit with a very damaging combo, but they'd have to work for it and wouldn't be able to drain their opponent's entire life bar by trapping them in the corner and using them as a punching bag for ten seconds.

 

I'll try and address these points as best as possible:

 

1) You're adding an arbitrary mechanic to the game that the player has to keep track of on top of everything else. GG is already an incredibly kinetic game, the player wants to focus on the action, not yet another gauge mechanic to keep track of.

 

2) Tying into the kinetic design of the game, you're jarring the game play at a very key point: the clash. A clash throws the game into neutral and rewards the first player to react and capitalize on it. Whereas during a special animation one player is already committed to an action during the "pause", both players are allowed to act and react. You see the clash, different players have different reactions. Some play defensively to counterplay their opponent, others play offensively to either shift or continue their momentum. This is important because some players with certain characters can utilize clashes pretty consistently, such as Johnny. Regardless of all this, you've also ruined the flow of the game, the feeling of speed you get from the action. It's just stopped, and I don't know about you but that seems like a huge no-no for any fighting game. What you could do is have a special clash animation with a "Danger!" annoucement. Having a good design idea doesn't necessarily mean it fits within the framework of your game. You have to mold the idea to fit within the framework.

3) This is the biggest issue. No matter what happens in any match, there's still a little "luck" involved. A 50/50 mix-up is still that, you have a 50% chance of guessing whatever. When you have something as strong as a mortal counter, whoever gets that first hit is going to do huge damage. Maybe you get a perfect setup and get the mortal counter, maybe you mess up a mix-up and you get punished for it, whatever. There are, in essence, 3 likely scenarios:

 

-Player X and Player Y are pretty much even: Mortal Counter comes into play, becomes a touch of death mechanic. Not particularly as exciting as a back-and-forth until the last pixel. 

-Player X is losing and Player Y is winning: Player Y puts in a huge effort to win, but Player X gets a mortal counter and is essentially a revenge mechanic with a single confirm and combo.

-Player X is winning and Player Y is losing: Player X gets mortal counter, but it really doesn't matter because he was winning to begin with so it serves little purpose

 

The first two are the only ones that matter and, quite frankly, kind of unfun. Nobody wants to watch an exciting back-and-forth hype match turn into first hit wins, and nobody wants to see a scrubby comeback (Working hard for that comeback is a different story). Instead of a MC, it can just simply be a forced regular CH on any confirm. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) You're adding an arbitrary mechanic to the game that the player has to keep track of on top of everything else. GG is already an incredibly kinetic game, the player wants to focus on the action, not yet another gauge mechanic to keep track of.

 

Having DT happen at a specific time under specific conditions is less arbitrary than having it activate at random.  The "once per every three clashes" idea was a way of ensuring it didn't occur too frequently more than anything else.  I'm not sure it's something most players would feel motivated to mentally track, because you do have an activation signal that allows them time to react when it happens.

 

2) Tying into the kinetic design of the game, you're jarring the game play at a very key point: the clash. A clash throws the game into neutral and rewards the first player to react and capitalize on it. Whereas during a special animation one player is already committed to an action during the "pause", both players are allowed to act and react. You see the clash, different players have different reactions. Some play defensively to counterplay their opponent, others play offensively to either shift or continue their momentum. This is important because some players with certain characters can utilize clashes pretty consistently, such as Johnny. Regardless of all this, you've also ruined the flow of the game, the feeling of speed you get from the action. It's just stopped, and I don't know about you but that seems like a huge no-no for any fighting game. What you could do is have a special clash animation with a "Danger!" annoucement. Having a good design idea doesn't necessarily mean it fits within the framework of your game. You have to mold the idea to fit within the framework.

 

Continuing from what I was saying regarding the previous point, I think you need some kind of pause to introduce DT because it does fundamentally change the gameplay (to a degree, at least).  Having it trigger instantaneously would be too jarring, I think, and do more to disrupt the game by potentially leaving players momentarily confused as to what happened.

I don't see a quick pause significantly disrupting the flow of gameplay because GG is already full of very short pauses—such as super freeze—throughout normal gameplay.  The complaint against the DT pause now is that it lasts too long, disrupting the established pace of the game.

 

3) This is the biggest issue. No matter what happens in any match, there's still a little "luck" involved. A 50/50 mix-up is still that, you have a 50% chance of guessing whatever. When you have something as strong as a mortal counter, whoever gets that first hit is going to do huge damage. Maybe you get a perfect setup and get the mortal counter, maybe you mess up a mix-up and you get punished for it, whatever. There are, in essence, 3 likely scenarios:

 

[sNIP]

 

First off, by having a DT clash return both players to neutral, you're still preserving the core essence of the gameplay: hit the other player without getting hit yourself.  Every character in the game is designed and balanced according to this principal, so it stands to reason that neither player should be at an unfair advantage or disadvantage during DT regardless of which character they're playing.

Second, a Mortal Counter loses a lot of its impact if you take away the 20% damage increase currently attached to DT.  I suppose I would also consider adjusting the proration values to further reduce damage potential.  Under these rules, it wouldn't be possible for a player who was way behind to take the lead via a "scrubby" comeback.  Best case scenario for a losing player is they put in the work to get that first hit following DT that allows them a free combo if they're able to execute it, which could potentially give them a fighting chance at taking the round by closing the HP gap somewhat.  This wouldn't be MVC3 X-Factor bullshit where one lucky hit gives you the opportunity to completely turn the tide of the match with only a moderate amount of effort.

In any case, this is just me spitballing ideas for ways you could theoretically fix some of the current issues with DT while keeping the basic nature of the mechanic mostly intact.  It sounds like you're advocating either removing DT altogether or transforming it into something that functions very differently, which are also viable options.  (They're not options I foresee ASW taking with this update, but hey.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is arbitrary; within the game's framework, why does it exist and what does it contribute to the game's flow? It is simply an idea added for the sake of it. MCs are basically like X-Factor-go check out some of the character forums for dumb mc only meterless combos. A lot were hitting upwards of 250 or more damage. This could be on a confirm where nobody was pressing buttons. Imagine a zato unblockable mc counter combo. Not fun. A lot of high level players just back off when a dt goes off because neither player wants to get nuked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Instead of happening randomly, DT would only activate after a specific number of clashes had happened within a single match.  For example, say it happens on every third clash.

What if DT was left as is mechanically but altered in terms of what triggers it and how long it lasts?  My idea would be that it can only occur when two attacks of level 1 or higher clash AND only when the clashing attacks are the same level but it will always occur so no more RNG BS.  To balance for that the length that it lasts for will be determined by the attack level that triggered it with attack level 1 being very short and an attack level 4 triggered DT being around what it lasts for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if DT was left as is mechanically but altered in terms of what triggers it and how long it lasts?  My idea would be that it can only occur when two attacks of level 1 or higher clash AND only when the clashing attacks are the same level but it will always occur so no more RNG BS.  To balance for that the length that it lasts for will be determined by the attack level that triggered it with attack level 1 being very short and an attack level 4 triggered DT being around what it lasts for now.

 

Jesus, is the game not complex enough already? I don't want to study yet another system mechanic, I just want to "TEHYAH!". RNG is only part of the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus, is the game not complex enough already? I don't want to study yet another system mechanic, I just want to "TEHYAH!". RNG is only part of the problem.

According to a lot of AC diehards, it's nowhere close to being complex enough lol.

 

I still think the idea of DT being player-activated on clashes with a meter cost and frame advantage is better. Maybe also use White Man's idea of it only granting a single Mortal Counter, so you can't easily turn opponents into corner punching bags for ridiculous damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I respect the hell out of that.

The thing about comparing Xrd to Smash is that Smash wasn't originally built to be a competitive tournament fighter (according to the games' own lead designer), so people were kind of forced to modify the rule set to accommodate that purpose.  Xrd was very much designed as a competitive title, and should therefore work in tournament play "out of the box" without the need to toggle any major gameplay mechanics.

 

 

 

Eh. While it was unlikely that Sakurai could prognosticate the scope of the modern tournament scene, it's pretty obvious the game's mechanics and options were tailored to competitive play (which facilitate the germination of competitive tournament communities).

 

http://smashfts.com/2015/02/09/melee-is-an-accident-i-disagree/

 

Fighting games catering to competitive crowds from the jump is a relatively recent phenomenon, honestly.

 

-Kimosabae 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×