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[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

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Fighting games catering to competitive crowds from the jump is a relatively recent phenomenon, honestly.

Console-exclusive fighters, yes. But arcade fighters have been doing so since at least SFII Turbo.

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Just want to confirm some stuff about dangertime because I'm not sure if the wiki is lacking information or not...does a mortal counter, aside from the 20% damage bonus, reduce proration in the combo? Also, is there more untechable time in the entire combo (not just the first hit) if it was started with a mortal counter?

 

For instance, I have a ridiculous combo video for Bedman that uses a lot of mortal counters...I'm not really sure how much of these combos are doable without the mortal counter (the combos are difficult and situational...hard for me to test but I'll get to it more extensively in a few days).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQIVF3tpgHI

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Just want to confirm some stuff about dangertime because I'm not sure if the wiki is lacking information or not...does a mortal counter, aside from the 20% damage bonus, reduce proration in the combo? Also, is there more untechable time in the entire combo (not just the first hit) if it was started with a mortal counter?

 

For instance, I have a ridiculous combo video for Bedman that uses a lot of mortal counters...I'm not really sure how much of these combos are doable without the mortal counter (the combos are difficult and situation...hard for me to test but I'll get to it more extensively in a few days).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQIVF3tpgHI

Most of these combos, while pretty, are very lol as far as their doability/practicality is concerned. Still, from what I know of Bedman, MC only affects the start and nothing further than the first two hits rely on getting it.

So while you can't do the combos without MC, it's only required to start them and doesn't influence anything beyond the beginning.

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This more of a general gameplay question, but how do you deal with people who are nutty in the neutral game and are always doing stuff? I'm not talking about horrible players, they generally know their offensive game even if sometimes they autopilot hard, but in the neutral game they're always rushing down, trying to get in and apply pressure in general.

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This more of a general gameplay question, but how do you deal with people who are nutty in the neutral game and are always doing stuff? I'm not talking about horrible players, they generally know their offensive game even if sometimes they autopilot hard, but in the neutral game they're always rushing down, trying to get in and apply pressure in general.

This is something I'd like to know, too, not just for this game. And it doesn't help that I tend to play characters that have a harder time up close and under pressure.

 

The things that helped me are: 1) really knowing the ranges and timings of your pokes and anti-airs, 2) figuring out the opponent's habits for trying to get in at neutral (particularly at mid- and full-screen distances), and 2.5) looking up how disadvantageous the tools they commonly use are. After getting the latter two points, I go to training mode to experiment with what I can do against those specific things.

 

It should be noted that this mainly works for me as a person who primarily plays against a couple specific people who use a very limited number of characters, but playing against a variety of people using that specific character also gives you a feel for what tools / approaches are "commonly" good for them.

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Just want to confirm some stuff about dangertime because I'm not sure if the wiki is lacking information or not...does a mortal counter, aside from the 20% damage bonus, reduce proration in the combo? Also, is there more untechable time in the entire combo (not just the first hit) if it was started with a mortal counter?

 

For instance, I have a ridiculous combo video for Bedman that uses a lot of mortal counters...I'm not really sure how much of these combos are doable without the mortal counter (the combos are difficult and situational...hard for me to test but I'll get to it more extensively in a few days).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQIVF3tpgHI

First of all, in case it wasn't made clear, the 20% damage bonus is not exclusive to the Mortal Counter. It lasts for as long as Danger Time itself does, so using the Forced Mortal Counter setting actually demonstrates the least amount of damage that combo could do, as only the Mortal Counter itself gets the damage bonus. Aside from that, Mortal Counters do not reduce proration, but the slowdown caused by a Mortal Counter does not trigger forced proration if you hit the opponent during it like Roman Cancel slowdown would.

Also, there is no additional untechable time throughout the combo, but the Mortal Counter itself has bonus hitstop that only applies to the receiver (twice the amount of a regular Counter Hit, according to Kedako), which enables certain conversions that would otherwise be impossible. For instance, in the first combo in the Mortal Counter combo video I routed, landing a 5D off 2P is only possible with the bonus hitstop on Mortal Counter.

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It is arbitrary; within the game's framework, why does it exist and what does it contribute to the game's flow? It is simply an idea added for the sake of it. MCs are basically like X-Factor-go check out some of the character forums for dumb mc only meterless combos. A lot were hitting upwards of 250 or more damage. This could be on a confirm where nobody was pressing buttons. Imagine a zato unblockable mc counter combo. Not fun. A lot of high level players just back off when a dt goes off because neither player wants to get nuked.

 

Lots of things in the game are arbitrary and unnecessary in the game. Instant Kills, superflash, close-ups during certain moves, taunts and respects, heavy metal anthems for each character, differing stages, dust DBZ chase animations, etc. The point is that all of these things add to the experience of the game. They make it cooler, more flashy, and unique when compared to other fighters. The same is true for Danger Time.

 

And I would hardly say it doesn't fit the game's framework. Part of the game is Yomi, and weighing your options to get the best risk/reward you can. Danger Time encapsulates this by basically saying: "Alright, you just clashed. What are your best moves for this situation? What will your opponent do? Think you can win? Go!"...Plus most normal clashes just turn into random mashing. I like the fact that Danger Time turns clashes into some sort of strategy minigame.

 

But I do agree heavily with you guys on the damage aspect. Forced counter hits I can understand, but not a 20% damage boost.

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Lots of things in the game are arbitrary and unnecessary in the game. Instant Kills, superflash, close-ups during certain moves, taunts and respects, heavy metal anthems for each character, differing stages, dust DBZ chase animations, etc. The point is that all of these things add to the experience of the game. They make it cooler, more flashy, and unique when compared to other fighters. The same is true for Danger Time.

 

That's not a great argument at all. Instant kills are a sort of holdover from the very first GG where they were relevant and also fucking obnoxious and were thankfully relegating to finishing off dizzied opponents. Super flashes are there to let people react to raw supers and everything else there is flavour. Danger Time is a gameplay mechanic and isn't some superfluous thing. Tripping was unique to Brawl, didn't make that mechanic any less bafflingly awful.
 

And I would hardly say it doesn't fit the game's framework. Part of the game is Yomi, and weighing your options to get the best risk/reward you can. Danger Time encapsulates this by basically saying: "Alright, you just clashed. What are your best moves for this situation? What will your opponent do? Think you can win? Go!"...Plus most normal clashes just turn into random mashing. I like the fact that Danger Time turns clashes into some sort of strategy minigame.

Clashing was already a mechanic that you had to consider (Johnny especially) so why do we need danger time slapped on? No one even bothers trying to be clever in danger time because what's the fucking point? You're just gonna get Marvel'd for your efforts, so most players play the sick yomi mindgames of mashing 2P. Not only that, but the "oh my god 3 seconds left guys hella hype animay mechanics" countdown pot busters the pacing of a fast paced fighting game.

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Eh. While it was unlikely that Sakurai could prognosticate the scope of the modern tournament scene, it's pretty obvious the game's mechanics and options were tailored to competitive play (which facilitate the germination of competitive tournament communities).

 

http://smashfts.com/2015/02/09/melee-is-an-accident-i-disagree/

 

Fighting games catering to competitive crowds from the jump is a relatively recent phenomenon, honestly.

 

-Kimosabae

Smash was made just for fun casual play. Melee is still the main game because the glitches/exploits found in the game make it seem deeper than what it was designed to be. Sakurai didn't imitate the Melee glitches in the newer versions of the series (like Capcom did with the combo system). Why? Why are there two Smash games in the Evo line-up? Like with all the competitive fighters we play, we normally move on to the newest version. Smash players are still holding on to Melee because it's the only game that feels close to being competitive in a serious tournament way (if you want to call Fox vs. Fox all day competitive). I'm pretty sure if the game was online those glitches would've been patched out a long time ago. That's one positive thing about Nintendo being behind with technology lol.

Anyway, back to real fighting game talk.

With Danger Time, to be honest think about it; Where does this "Danger" come from? It doesn't make any sense that something like that comes from just clashing. It's like they tried to imitate Marvel Vs Capcom 3's X-Factor just for the sake of "helping out" those who are losing. Even with that, it doesn't make sense because the losing player isn't guaranteed to benefit from the action. GUilty Gear is supposed to be about skill, not tossing the losing player a switchblade in a fistfight.

I say they should just nuke the idea from orbit. It's the only safe way to be sure. I can already see the booing from Primetime Evo matches.

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For the record, Ishiwatari outright said it's meant to be jarring and nonsensical, recalling older FGs like Samurai Shodown where you'd suddenly find yourself mashing for dear life because of a mechanic you weren't expecting at that moment.

Whether or not that's a good idea is debatable, but he and Pachi did also talk about the train of thought that lead to how it is now.

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Smash was made just for fun casual play. Melee is still the main game because the glitches/exploits found in the game make it seem deeper than what it was designed to be. Sakurai didn't imitate the Melee glitches in the newer versions of the series (like Capcom did with the combo system). Why? Why are there two Smash games in the Evo line-up? Like with all the competitive fighters we play, we normally move on to the newest version. Smash players are still holding on to Melee because it's the only game that feels close to being competitive in a serious tournament way (if you want to call Fox vs. Fox all day competitive). I'm pretty sure if the game was online those glitches would've been patched out a long time ago. That's one positive thing about Nintendo being behind with technology lol.

Anyway, back to real fighting game talk.

With Danger Time, to be honest think about it; Where does this "Danger" come from? It doesn't make any sense that something like that comes from just clashing. It's like they tried to imitate Marvel Vs Capcom 3's X-Factor just for the sake of "helping out" those who are losing. Even with that, it doesn't make sense because the losing player isn't guaranteed to benefit from the action. GUilty Gear is supposed to be about skill, not tossing the losing player a switchblade in a fistfight.

I say they should just nuke the idea from orbit. It's the only safe way to be sure. I can already see the booing from Primetime Evo matches.

 

 

Lol @ "real fighting game talk". Is it 2007?

 

In any case, this post is silly, especially considering you have a link in the post you quoted addressing your general stance, and showing why it's a farce. 

 

Not gonna talk about Melee/Smash here any longer. Only quoted this post because it was stupid. 

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Lots of things in the game are arbitrary and unnecessary in the game. Instant Kills, superflash, close-ups during certain moves, taunts and respects, heavy metal anthems for each character, differing stages, dust DBZ chase animations, etc. The point is that all of these things add to the experience of the game. They make it cooler, more flashy, and unique when compared to other fighters. The same is true for Danger Time.

 

And I would hardly say it doesn't fit the game's framework. Part of the game is Yomi, and weighing your options to get the best risk/reward you can. Danger Time encapsulates this by basically saying: "Alright, you just clashed. What are your best moves for this situation? What will your opponent do? Think you can win? Go!"...Plus most normal clashes just turn into random mashing. I like the fact that Danger Time turns clashes into some sort of strategy minigame.

 

But I do agree heavily with you guys on the damage aspect. Forced counter hits I can understand, but not a 20% damage boost.

 

Unnecessary, yes. Arbitrary? No. Everything you used as an example are elements that are within a player's control. There is no random element when you press 5D to dust someone, when you throw, RC, and instant-kill, or I-no wake-up reversal super, or select your stage and music at the beginning (even setting it to random is a choice you made so shut up :psyduck:). All of these tie into yomi, the mindset of the player. Danger time is completely random and no longer within control of the players playing the game. Normal clashes test reaction time without interruption. Normal clashes can be controlled elements, even. Within the framework of a kinetic game such as GG, having both players back away to let Danger Time run out because neither wants to risk getting blown up in a touch-of-death scenario is completely AGAINST said framework; a game dedicated to constant movement and offensive. GG is about "GO! GO! GO!" not "You clashed, here's 3 seconds to decide what you want to do, just kidding your opponent just did the same, better just back off and defend". You are mixing up layers of arbitration and substance with style and substance. Style doesn't effect the gameplay and if it does (such as IKs) its within a player-controlled environment. It's just a jarring, RNG element that either ruins the flow of the match because people are waiting it out, or a touch-of-death mechanic that just ruins the round. I explained this from a developer perspective in another post, feel free to read it because I don't feel like explaining it again. Mechanics in GG have come and gone, I wouldn't be surprised if the next iteration of GG results in its removal, and I doubt a lot of players would miss it.

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Smash was made just for fun casual play. Melee is still the main game because the glitches/exploits found in the game make it seem deeper than what it was designed to be. Sakurai didn't imitate the Melee glitches in the newer versions of the series (like Capcom did with the combo system). Why? Why are there two Smash games in the Evo line-up? Like with all the competitive fighters we play, we normally move on to the newest version. Smash players are still holding on to Melee because it's the only game that feels close to being competitive in a serious tournament way (if you want to call Fox vs. Fox all day competitive). I'm pretty sure if the game was online those glitches would've been patched out a long time ago. That's one positive thing about Nintendo being behind with technology lol.

Anyway, back to real fighting game talk.

With Danger Time, to be honest think about it; Where does this "Danger" come from? It doesn't make any sense that something like that comes from just clashing. It's like they tried to imitate Marvel Vs Capcom 3's X-Factor just for the sake of "helping out" those who are losing. Even with that, it doesn't make sense because the losing player isn't guaranteed to benefit from the action. GUilty Gear is supposed to be about skill, not tossing the losing player a switchblade in a fistfight.

I say they should just nuke the idea from orbit. It's the only safe way to be sure. I can already see the booing from Primetime Evo matches.

 

Comparing Smash to GG is like comparing bananas to dragon dildos, but I digress; the reason that there are two versions of Smash is because they both play radically different from each other. Same reason how P4U and GG are in EVO; they're both anime airdashers with a lot of the same global mechanics but they're hardly the same game. I don't play Smash personally but a friend of mine was explaining it to me the other day when I mentioned that I find Smash boring to watch - Melee has a much more high-octane rushdown playstyle to it whereas the newer Smash games are more prolonged, neutral-oriented games with more recovery and footsies and less rushdown/pressure game to it. You can watch both for different game styles basically, or none at all. Whatever.

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God's Gift anybody?:D anyways did the date for the third loketest pass already? Or are we still waiting?

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God's Gift anybody?:D anyways did the date for the third loketest pass already? Or are we still waiting?

We humbly await the yellow light to bless us as we pray at the neon church.

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Snippy

 

 

McSnip

 

 

Are you guys really complaining this much about a 3 second slowdown that rarely happens? OMG the pace of GG is sooooo fast. Super fast, in fact. I especially love the part halfway through the match when all action/momentum stops completely, both players are reset to match start position, and given time to think while the announcer says, "Duel 2. Keep on rocking!"

 

Way faster than that Melee game somebody mentioned earlier, which instantly drops players right back into the ring after they die (and doesn't have hard knockdowns so that the game is literally all speed and offense)...If GG was truly all "GO! GO! GO!" (from a design standpoint) there would be 1 long round, no Burst, no Dead Angle, no zoners, and everyone would have aerial knockdown or a Gadget Finger-type move that snapped the opponent back in for more offense.

 

Is GG fast? Yes it is. Is it the fastest? No...A big part of GG are the forced yomi situations. Every time a new round starts or someone is knocked down the action is stopped and the game enters the "Alright I got a second. What's my opponent going to do?"-stage. Danger Time is just this stage, inserted during a clash. Yes it's random...but it's not unfair to either player because both are put into a neutral state. And either player can benefit from Danger Time. Yes, you can "Get Marvl'd"...but you also have the ability to marvel your opponent.

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For the record, Ishiwatari outright said it's meant to be jarring and nonsensical, recalling older FGs like Samurai Shodown where you'd suddenly find yourself mashing for dear life because of a mechanic you weren't expecting at that moment.

Whether or not that's a good idea is debatable, but he and Pachi did also talk about the train of thought that lead to how it is now.

I officially like this mechanic now thanks to that explanation.

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Stuff

 

 

Comparing Smash to GG is like comparing bananas to dragon dildos

 

Mercy. :psyduck:

Have you even been around long enough to play GG XX series? I mean REALLY play it? If so, I'd much rather you compare Xrd to that instead of Smash.

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Mercy. :psyduck:

Have you even been around long enough to play GG XX series? I mean REALLY play it? If so, I'd much rather you compare Xrd to that instead of Smash.

 

You can compare Smash and GG at a conceptual level. Smash isn't a visual novel, or Texas Hold'Em.

 

I dabbled in XX here and there, but I was never serious with it. (Just as you haven't been serious with Smash).

 

I get where you're coming from. One of the things that makes GG good is the speed and action, and DT slows that down. But can you also understand my side? By that I mean enjoying the moments of slowdown (that give both players a time to think) in an otherwise fast paced match. I actually like Danger Time because of that reason alone.

 

We just prefer two different aspects of the game.

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Are you guys really complaining this much about a 3 second slowdown that rarely happens? OMG the pace of GG is sooooo fast. Super fast, in fact. I especially love the part halfway through the match when all action/momentum stops completely, both players are reset to match start position, and given time to think while the announcer says, "Duel 2. Keep on rocking!"

Yes, we are complaining about a 3 second wait followed by 10 seconds of crouching jab. Yes, GG is fast, it's (arguably) the granddaddy of airdashers. We're talking about a game where you don't even need to wait until you hit the ground to tech, a game where running forward generates tension.

And yes, when you win a round, you get a (skippable) transition between round starts like every other game. It's such a fucking slippery slope to think that if there's any delay at all in a game it somehow justifies a dumb mechanic arbitrarily stopping time. You might as well talk about "well if they wanted a fast fighter they shouldn't have load times in his game QED" if you felt like being really disingenuous.

 

 

Way faster than that Melee game somebody mentioned earlier, which instantly drops players right back into the ring after they die (and doesn't have hard knockdowns so that the game is literally all speed and offense)...If GG was truly all "GO! GO! GO!" (from a design standpoint) there would be 1 long round, no Burst, no Dead Angle, no zoners, and everyone would have aerial knockdown or a Gadget Finger-type move that snapped the opponent back in for more offense.

 

If instantly means "after the particles play and they're lowered down if the animations where they fall into the backdrop or slam into the screen don't play first", then sure why not. 

Guilty Gear is all about keeping people constantly moving and on the offensive, that's why aggression gives you meter, that's why negative warning exists and that's why nearly everyone has a run as well as being able to airdash and double jump. Hell, even the RC system in Xrd (A much, MUCH better and interesting mechanic than danger time ever will be) was heavily criticized for the timeslow, and it's why people WERE wary about the timeslow and cinematics added to supers. (I still kinda am torn on cinematic supers, heavenly pot bustering someone usually makes me less hyped and more occupied with getting a drink while the animations play out.)

 

 

Is GG fast? Yes it is. Is it the fastest? No...A big part of GG are the forced yomi situations. Every time a new round starts or someone is knocked down the action is stopped and the game enters the "Alright I got a second. What's my opponent going to do?"-stage. Danger Time is just this stage, inserted during a clash. Yes it's random...but it's not unfair to either player because both are put into a neutral state. And either player can benefit from Danger Time. Yes, you can "Get Marvl'd"...but you also have the ability to marvel your opponent.

 

The action doesn't stop though. People don't just stare at their controllers when a combo or knockdown happens, they're actually setting up and doing oki shit or think about how they'll tech out.

What does forced yomi even mean? Is it yomi where the game points a gun at your head? Is it any different than what players always did on clash in GGXX or what they do in Xrd when Danger Time doesn't drop its fat unwieldy ass in?

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Lol @ "real fighting game talk". Is it 2007?

 

In any case, this post is silly, especially considering you have a link in the post you quoted addressing your general stance, and showing why it's a farce. 

 

Not gonna talk about Melee/Smash here any longer. Only quoted this post because it was stupid.

No, you can't deal with the truth. Can you prove me wrong? I'll oblige you whenever you're ready. There's nothing wrong with liking the game, but please if you're going to give GG comparisons, could you use games that are actually designed for tournament play? Melee's "depth" was an accident that was never further investigated/built on by the creators.

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