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[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

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Can't wait to get my character nerfed :)

T-thanks ArcSys

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Bring it to consoles asap. Bring the fat dough to SONY if you have to but have it up and running on my PS3 please. I need this 1.04 game ;_;

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http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/index.cgi?eid=1447

 

1.10 HITS ARCADE MARCH 19

 

 

Wanna see that GAKU Sin, BOB Leo, even Sharon Elphelt

 

This is exciting news, can't wait to see what effect the changes have on all the match-ups. Just so I'm clear though, we still don't have a change list from the last loketest thought right? Or were there no changes to report? Some dude was kind enough to share some potemkin changes and I've heard bits and pieces here and there but nothing concrete yet.

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This is exciting news, can't wait to see what effect the changes have on all the match-ups. Just so I'm clear though, we still don't have a change list from the last loketest thought right? Or were there no changes to report? Some dude was kind enough to share some potemkin changes and I've heard bits and pieces here and there but nothing concrete yet.

Well Chipp and Elphelt got no changes in the last loketest,aside from that I haven't seen any other info about it.

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Hey guys, I was wondering if you could do me all a favor.

 

Yesterday me and a couple of my friends were having some wicked sets and playing all very seriously. One of them wasn't used to this high octane level of play,a nd got frustrated that off the smallest mistake, like a poorly spaced normal or special, would completely ruin him for the round.

 

I tried making him understand that this is essentially high level play; the smallest of mistake can and will get you killed. Both you and your opponent are looking for these mistakes to capitalize on for the win. Focusing on your mistakes make you lose more, but he still kept criticizing and harping himself on his mistakes, even when he had 3+ game win streaks.

 

Long story short, could you guys give me your definition(s) of "high level play" and what it means to "outplay someone"? I know the two terms aren't mutually exclusive, but I would like to see a concrete definition to show him. And it would be an interesting discussion since these terms we use a lot in these games without truly defining what they mean :)

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Hey guys, I was wondering if you could do me all a favor.

 

Yesterday me and a couple of my friends were having some wicked sets and playing all very seriously. One of them wasn't used to this high octane level of play,a nd got frustrated that off the smallest mistake, like a poorly spaced normal or special, would completely ruin him for the round.

 

I tried making him understand that this is essentially high level play; the smallest of mistake can and will get you killed. Both you and your opponent are looking for these mistakes to capitalize on for the win. Focusing on your mistakes make you lose more, but he still kept criticizing and harping himself on his mistakes, even when he had 3+ game win streaks.

 

Long story short, could you guys give me your definition(s) of "high level play" and what it means to "outplay someone"? I know the two terms aren't mutually exclusive, but I would like to see a concrete definition to show him. And it would be an interesting discussion since these terms we use a lot in these games without truly defining what they mean :)

 

Even at high level play people will make mistakes, let's just make that clear. The mistakes they usually don't make are on a fundamental level, so things such as execution and spacing or bad footsies is something you may not see very often. At high level play, players try to give each of their actions or motions a purpose. They maybe trying to take advantage of an opponent's weakness, or take advantage of their own strengths. Some players will just jump randomly or use certain moves at certain positions without knowing WHY they're doing it. This usually comes from a lack of experience or knowledge of the game. Outplaying someone are the gambles you take, the mistakes that you'll see sometimes at high level play; misreading your opponent (for example). I've seen some Potemkin players get a godlike read on people with raw Heat Extend because they knew they were going to try and jump in. On the flipside, you might get blown up for a bad read. To me, giving all your actions a sense of purpose is high level play.

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Bring it to consoles asap. Bring the fat dough to SONY if you have to but have it up and running on my PS3 please. I need this 1.04 game ;_;

Your post reminded me of something interesting. The last gen is still governed (crippled?) by legacy patch restrictions. Currently, during the overlap, I can see that affecting games that exist within, assuming the developer wants to uphold parity between both console versions. If that's the case for Xrd then we may see the 1.10 patch later rather than earlier as the PS3 has a stringent update protocol as opposed to PS4. Once the last gen is phased outI'd assume that updates will happen in a more timely manner (I notice games on PS4 are being patched/updated all the time, not unlike Steam).

 

I hope I'm dead wrong, for the sake of us all!

 

I am curious as to how much they're keeping from the 3 Loketests... Hell, the third one has been a mystery altogether.

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Your post reminded me of something interesting. The last gen is still governed (crippled?) by legacy patch restrictions. Currently, during the overlap, I can see that affecting games that exist within, assuming the developer wants to uphold parity between both console versions. If that's the case for Xrd then we may see the 1.10 patch later rather than earlier as the PS3 has a stringent update protocol as opposed to PS4. Once the last gen is phased outI'd assume that updates will happen in a more timely manner (I notice games on PS4 are being patched/updated all the time, not unlike Steam).

 

I hope I'm dead wrong, for the sake of us all!

 

I am curious as to how much they're keeping from the 3 Loketests... Hell, the third one has been a mystery altogether.

This could definitely be a problem given that Evo decided to sell Guilty Gear out in favor of running an unproven version of USFIV.  At least I'm pretty sure that the original plan was to run GG on PS4 and USFIV on 360 until Sony started throwing money at Capcom and the Evo organizers and the setup was switched so that GG would be run on PS3 while USFIV would be on PS4.  Please let me know if that's incorrect.  My general thoughts are:

 

1) Arcade and console patches are released close to one another and with a decent lead in time to Evo = everything is fine.  

1a) Arcade and console patches are released close to one another but without a decent lead in time to Evo = Evo organizers are kind of screwed while everything else is fine 

2) Arcade version is patched soon but console version isn't patched until after Evo = Japanese players are screwed.

3) Arcade version is patched soon but console version is patched until very close to Evo = Evo organizers are kind of screwed and all non-Japanese players are completely fucked.

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Hey guys, I was wondering if you could do me all a favor.

 

Yesterday me and a couple of my friends were having some wicked sets and playing all very seriously. One of them wasn't used to this high octane level of play,a nd got frustrated that off the smallest mistake, like a poorly spaced normal or special, would completely ruin him for the round.

 

I tried making him understand that this is essentially high level play; the smallest of mistake can and will get you killed. Both you and your opponent are looking for these mistakes to capitalize on for the win. Focusing on your mistakes make you lose more, but he still kept criticizing and harping himself on his mistakes, even when he had 3+ game win streaks.

 

Long story short, could you guys give me your definition(s) of "high level play" and what it means to "outplay someone"? I know the two terms aren't mutually exclusive, but I would like to see a concrete definition to show him. And it would be an interesting discussion since these terms we use a lot in these games without truly defining what they mean :)

When you play you can only react to so many things and you can only think about so many things. Way fewer things than how many things are possible to occur. High level play is when you know everything ever but can parse that list down to just maybe 3 permutations of acts that your foe can take and then deduce based on the patterns of their play which of the 3 courses of action they're most likely to take. Once you do that you proceed with pre-emptive acts to combat this action, be it baiting a dp or pressing a poke a few frames later than "as fast as possible", stuff like that.

 

Basically, if you make a mistake, that's one thing, if you make a mistake which get capitalized upon by your opponent intentionally, that means your opponent already acted in a way that was correct and thus deserves the reward. It's a testament to their capacity to perceive the situation appropriately and pick the right option as well as testament to their play which forces so few options to be possible that it's easy to pick correctly.

 

 

The most important thing is not to dwell on mistakes. As we established above you have only so much stuff you can think about and if you're thinking about your mistakes on top of those other things then you will suffer a lack of mind-power which will render you unable to properly perceive a situation and deduce appropriately what the correct approach is. Just forget everything that happened in the past, erase it form your memory and play in a way which aims at winning with a perfect, at all times, no matter how much life you or your foe have.

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I like the responses so far :)

 

Curious what players like TB, shtkn, destin, and sytha would say as well.

 

EDIT: @dreiko, i see your response puts the two concepts i mentioned together. High level play is focusing on few dangerous options, while ignoring the other ones that are otherwise useless or sparingly used, while outplaying means to make the right decision based off on those few options and being rewarded for doing so.

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Overall I think we can do without the extravagant terminology. How I'd put in a simple way the concept I describe is "playing well" and the better you apply those principles the better you're playing. High level and low level and all that stuff puts things in various piles when it's just all a single pile and what we're doing is making a progression on it. As for outplaying, that's not even a difficult concept, it's when you have someone play better than you (using the "play well" definition above). Meaning, doing all of those things that I mention with a higher degree of proficiency.

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This could definitely be a problem given that Evo decided to sell Guilty Gear out in favor of running an unproven version of USFIV. At least I'm pretty sure that the original plan was to run GG on PS4 and USFIV on 360 until Sony started throwing money at Capcom and the Evo organizers and the setup was switched so that GG would be run on PS3 while USFIV would be on PS4. Please let me know if that's incorrect. My general thoughts are:

1) Arcade and console patches are released close to one another and with a decent lead in time to Evo = everything is fine.

1a) Arcade and console patches are released close to one another but without a decent lead in time to Evo = Evo organizers are kind of screwed while everything else is fine

2) Arcade version is patched soon but console version isn't patched until after Evo = Japanese players are screwed.

3) Arcade version is patched soon but console version is patched until very close to Evo = Evo organizers are kind of screwed and all non-Japanese players are completely fucked.

Na GG was always planed for PS3 not PS4. Unless something catastrophic happends its pretty obvious the persona 4 and GG patches will be before evo its just a matter of when sigh Japanese always get the time advantage.

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I like the responses so far :)

 

Curious what players like TB, shtkn, destin, and sytha would say as well.

 

EDIT: @dreiko, i see your response puts the two concepts i mentioned together. High level play is focusing on few dangerous options, while ignoring the other ones that are otherwise useless or sparingly used, while outplaying means to make the right decision based off on those few options and being rewarded for doing so.

--- WARNING: OPINIONS ---

High Level Play  (Matchup)

I'll use a poker analogy since that's probably easier to conceptualize.

 

High Level Play to me means you understand your odds at every situation (card shown, percentages) and how much you stand to win/lose (how much money each player has already put in the pot, how much money they have left). Then deciding whether it's worth the risk and playing accordingly.

 

In fighting games that means you know the matchup. How much do you stand to gain/lose by performing a given action in any given situation (health/meter/knockdown/etc.). Where should you be in relation to your opponent to minimize risk for you and maximize risk for your opponent? What attacks are difficult for the opponent to deal with?

 

"If my opponent has me in a blockstring, how much do i gain for trying to mash/jump out, and how much does the opponent gain for hitting me with things that beat mash/jump? Is it worth the risk?"

"If i press f.S at medium range, which of the opponent's options does that beat? how risky/costly is it for him to counter it?"

 

Most beginners don't see the odds, they just want to hit the guy, even if the odds are stacked against them. Most mid level players only have very patchy matchup knowledge. At high level, both sides understand the odds very well and make informed decisions based on those odds. Of course you can't play the odds the whole time; if you're caught in an unfavorable position, only doing conservative actions means you may minimize your losses, but you'll never make any gains.

 

Outplaying

Outplaying a person is learning a person's psychology/habits, then doing things that counter those actions.

 

This is the mindgames portion of fighting games. Nearly every action has a counter; learn the counter and beat them up for being too predictable - for playing the matchup "too textbook". 

"Player 1: My opponent's going to do X, so I'll do A to counter X."

"Player 2: My opponent's expecting me to do X, so he will do A. I will do Y to counter A."

this can go on forever, go read David Sirlin's Yomi Level article for a better description.

 

Most player can grasp this concept, but not the execution. Applying it in a match is difficult and requires studying the opponent as you fight them. I remember an interview Daigo gave where he tries to classify player very early in the match into a few categories (risky, safe, etc) and takes actions/ makes predictions based on the category of player. High level players even switch styles multiple times in a match to try and be less predictable!

 

Addendum: forgot to mention about player conditioning to get them to do what YOU want. fascinating stuff, but i won't talk about it here, too complex for a simple post.

 

 

The Two Influence Each Other

These two things influence each other at all levels, the more you know about a person's habits, the more it changes the risk/reward of actions mentioned in the High Level Play section

 

If the opponent lacks matchup knowledge, taht means you can get away with actions that are normally risky because they don't know how to punish it. The more a player knows a matchup, the more that affects their decision making and what their default response is to any situation making it easier to predict the opponent's actions if they autopilot too much.

 

I guess the best way to describe High Level Play is when both players have a lot of matchup knowledge and yomi 

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Na GG was always planed for PS3 not PS4. Unless something catastrophic happends its pretty obvious the persona 4 and GG patches will be before evo its just a matter of when sigh Japanese always get the time advantage.

I was simply highlighting all of the possibilities.  My bet, based on ASWs track record, would be that the console patch comes out some time between late May and mid June; i.e. the non-Japanese competition is fucked option.

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To go off of what shtkn and dreiko sad, just because someone is outplaying, doesn't mean you're necessarily playing bad are you? It just means they have a slight edge, perhaps even psychological edge, over you.

 

Examples of Nemo vs Ogawa when Xrd dropped. You could see how Nemo eventually just kept playing Ogawa for the sake of not looking like a quitter, as opposed to Machabo's Ky who kept persisting and got ever closer to beating Ogawa until he finally lost, it just took about 20 matches or so to do that. Or another example is the age old LordKnight vs Spark in cs2, eventually you could see how Spark basica,ly broke LK's confidence in himself to open up Spark and beat him.

 

Both LK and Nemo are amazing players, but their opponents had a huge psychological advantage over them, which allowed them to outplay them.

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Since i am the only one who played the new version.

I can say that i don't feel like the game has changed.

That's all you got? I suppose playing in JP may be a bit different give the overall higher level of play. You didn't notice a difference to how the console exclusive characters were doing vs how they've been?  Interesting.

 

Also, who do you play (Sol?)?

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Since i am the only one who played the new version.

I can say that i don't feel like the game has changed.

Is Ram slaughtered or nah?

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Ggac+r

Bet ver. Imo

High level play:

Consistent FRC execution

unpredictability

execution

oki

experience

Low level play :

B&b

Random unesential burst (just take the damage) a HL player will always know he can cone back

no oki

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Ggac+r

Bet ver. Imo

High level play:

Consistent FRC execution

unpredictability

execution

oki

experience

Low level play :

B&b

Random unesential burst (just take the damage) a HL player will always know he can cone back

no oki

 

What? Knowing your BnBs is fundamentally important because those chain routes go into more optimal combos.

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...

Just forget everything that happened in the past, erase it form your memory and play in a way which aims at winning with a perfect, at all times, no matter how much life you or your foe have.

 

I really liked your post overall, but wanted to comment on this part.  Getting a perfect means you're not getting hit.  Not getting hit means you're not losing, which means you're winning.  However, sometimes the right move involves getting hit.  I'm not even talking about taking a calculated risk and being wrong here - you could put yourself into a position where your next hit would kill and you're getting a perfect, then **** it up and give the opponent an opportunity to escape because you decided that it wasn't worth it to trade hits because you wanted your perfect.

 

Sometimes your opponent just isn't expecting something to hit you, and wont capitalize properly on you getting hit.  I'm pretty sure that tactic was brought up by ehuangsan in his trade secrets thread.  Maybe Sol does a Gunflame YRC and dashes in on you when you're in the corner.  You're in a situation where you have no effective counter poke with that spacing (you'll get counter hit, leading to him getting a combo even if you hit him) and don't have the time to escape, so you're forced to block.  Except that you decide to jump into the gunflame and take the non CH air hit instead, causing his Wild Throw or 2K to whiff, which lets you tech out.  He could easily bait that, but that wasn't the intention of this player's sequence, so it fails to catch this really silly escape method.

 

A win with 1 hp is still a win, even if the bragging rights are different from a perfect.

 

 

This ties into what shtkn posted about knowing risk/reward ratios and making strategic decisions.

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Haha, I don't mean get a perfect as "never get touched" as much as in "devastate your foe and never give up". No need to be too big on the semantics. Hell, if you are going for an actual perfect you're likely utilizing too much FD to avoid all the chip in the world if anything. Basically it's more about thinking "I can still win" at all times than anything really. It's about thinking "I can still perfect him from this point on", not "I can't take 1hp damage or all is lost" or anything of the sort.

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