[Xrd] News & Gameplay Discussion 2 - Console is Out!

[KenDeep]

"Easy to learn" does not necessarily translate to "Easy to be good at". I would argue it's more complicated to learn how to play SF4 on a very high level than GGXrd is since high level SF4 introduces a lot of techs that are not part of the core game (Option Selects, Setups, Throw Tech, Unblockables...). This does not mean that the ceiling is higher, but that the ceiling needs more effort(or actually: Knowledge) to reach.

However, when talking about the basic game in the sense of mechanics, GGXrd is far more difficult to learn than SF4. SF4 only has normal Jumps, Walking, Dashing, Throwing, Focus Attack, FADC, Combo Scaling, Supers and Ultras. Versus GGXrd which has Jumps, Super Jumps, Double Jumps, Dashes AND Runs, Air Dashes, Faultless Defense, Just Block, Air Unblockables, Supers, Instant Kills, RISC, , Roman Cancels(and three of them), Dead Angle, Negative Penalty, Guts Rating, Attack Levels... and on and on.

Understanding Xrd vs Understanding SF4(or 3s) on the most basic level is no comparison.

[entnervt]

Could we please quit the discussion regarding the accessibility of XRD and SF4? It leads to absolutely nothing, thx.

[Poultrygeist]

The conversation came from a discussion on the AX interview with Ishiwatari himself where he mentioned accessability.  The only reason SF4 was even mentioned is because it's generally thought to be the most accessable fighting game on the market.  Nobody to my knowledge is comparing them for the sake of shitting on either.

[Jakestation]

"Easy to learn" does not necessarily translate to "Easy to be good at". I would argue it's more complicated to learn how to play SF4 on a very high level than GGXrd is since high level SF4 introduces a lot of techs that are not part of the core game (Option Selects, Setups, Throw Tech, Unblockables...). This does not mean that the ceiling is higher, but that the ceiling needs more effort(or actually: Knowledge) to reach.

However, when talking about the basic game in the sense of mechanics, GGXrd is far more difficult to learn than SF4. SF4 only has normal Jumps, Walking, Dashing, Throwing, Focus Attack, FADC, Combo Scaling, Supers and Ultras. Versus GGXrd which has Jumps, Super Jumps, Double Jumps, Dashes AND Runs, Air Dashes, Faultless Defense, Just Block, Air Unblockables, Supers, Instant Kills, RISC, , Roman Cancels(and three of them), Dead Angle, Negative Penalty, Guts Rating, Attack Levels... and on and on.

Understanding Xrd vs Understanding SF4(or 3s) on the most basic level is no comparison.

 

Random guy getting a round from daigo vs random guy getting a round from ogawa. I start to think the gg is harder if you put it that way.

[noct76]

Daisuke's Panel was today as Anime Expo. I'll try to sum up everything he said.

 

- Those images we saw with Vastedge Sol Badguy and weird goofy looking Sol Badguy was a proof of concept video the team did to pitch the idea of a 3D designed Guilty Gear. We saw footage of it in action, but weren't allowed to record. The reason why goofy looking Sol Badguy is there is because they only had Sol's model designed and decided to just reuse it and change his face to have a second character to show the battle system.

- When asked about PC and Xbox One port Daisuke said he was not allowed to speak about it.

- Obligatory question about GG vs BB with same obligatory answer.

- That Man's servants with their strange concepts based on Masochist, Sadist, and Bondage was not intentional whatsoever and Daisuke simply just made them up as he went along.

- The Valentines differing animal motifs were also unintentional.

- Emphasized several times that the team really wants to bring back all the old characters. Eventually.

- Zato-One's design was based on Ninjas from mangas Daisuke used to read.

- Big Blast Sonic was made just for the trailer at TGS, which is why we never hear it in the game. Still doesn't explain why it's labeled as "Console Opening" though....

- We got him to scream Dragon Install. It was amazing. He was quite embarrassed.

- He gets Burst Grabbed all the time.

So is I-no the sadist or the mashochist? Since I think we can all assume Raven is bondage. Also what does this say about the job requirements on That Man's employ...

[Poultrygeist]

Raven is the masochist because he enjoys pain because he's the undying etc

I-No is the sadist because she enjoys hurting people which includes the player if they want their execution to meet her standards

Jacko is bondage because she wears a straight jacket and has an iron maiden in one of her moves

 

 

Random guy getting a round from daigo vs random guy getting a round from ogawa. I start to think the gg is harder if you put it that way.

 

Welll.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX6Jf0AtseY

[Hollysmoke]

The conversation came from a discussion on the AX interview with Ishiwatari himself where he mentioned accessability.  The only reason SF4 was even mentioned is because it's generally thought to be the most accessable fighting game on the market.  Nobody to my knowledge is comparing them for the sake of shitting on either.

 

No it's not.

[Hollysmoke]

GG is hard as fuck for new people to learn, I don't know what everyone is going on about.  The complexity is necessary for many of the interactions and design points, but that doesn't make it easy. 

 

SF4 is the easiest fighting game to get to the point where you are really playing fighting games.  By far.  The problem is it caps out in interest way earlier by the same tools that are used to make it accessible.

 

X2 series maybe. There weren't any tools to learning it beyond practicing random shit, or going online to find what other people discovered. Other things such as frame data was even more difficult to come by. Xrd alleviates this with Challenge Mode to learn combos or at least how some chain routes work so you have a base to optimize off of, and the Mission Mode to learn the mechanics such as reversals, hit confirming, etc. that isn't present in the manual. Something that's not in the SF 4 manual OR training mode either.

[Poultrygeist]

No it's not.

Then what would you say is?  I've seen SG thrown out there too and I think it's a good example but SF4 has the traditional FG archetypes there in their original forms while SG characters with a few exceptions play by their own rules.  Persona maybe?  Autocombos + no commands stricter than a QCF or charge.

[entnervt]

The conversation came from a discussion on the AX interview with Ishiwatari himself where he mentioned accessability. The only reason SF4 was even mentioned is because it's generally thought to be the most accessable fighting game on the market. Nobody to my knowledge is comparing them for the sake of shitting on either.

But it still leads to nothing.

[Poultrygeist]

But it still leads to nothing.

If we stopped every discussion that somebody didn't like or that didn't lead to anything then every single post in this thread would be deleted.  Unless the mods come in and address it as a problem then there's no reason to consider it one.  IDK, report it if it bothers you.

[entnervt]

You don't get it, comparing two games to have examples is okay but endlessly discussing which one is more accessible is simply useless.

[Poultrygeist]

Yeah my bad, I read your posts wrong.  I apologize for that!

[KenDeep]

Without comparing the two games, and returning to the original statement, I would simply say that saying "GGXrd is accessible and easy to learn" is false. Which is not a bad thing really, since it's obviously a design choice from ArcSys' side. I also know some people that like Guilty Gear exactly because there is an entry barrier "implemented".

 

On the other hand I've learned the game in 2 months vs learning 3s in 2 years 6 years ago so maybe im also talking trash

[king of heart]

Without comparing the two games, and returning to the original statement, I would simply say that saying "GGXrd is accessible and easy to learn" is false. Which is not a bad thing really, since it's obviously a design choice from ArcSys' side. I also know some people that like Guilty Gear exactly because there is an entry barrier "implemented".

On the other hand I've learned the game in 2 months vs learning 3s in 2 years 6 years ago so maybe im also talking trash

I have been playing the game for 8 years and still don't consider myself a good player.

Maybe your 3rd strike scene was stronger than your current GG scene or you're just a genius!

[KenDeep]

@king of heart

as said, I don't consider having "learned the game" = "being good at the game". I guess the best situation to describe it is that I frequently know what I did wrong/bad in a match. That doesn't mean that I will necessarily do the right thing or do the thing flawlessly the next time, but that I am aware of the games system and how I can potentially play with it.

 

(Because tbh I don't consider myself that good of a player. I'm decent and I have a good understanding of the game mechanics, but I'm predictable and my execution is inconsistent)

[D.R.F.]

So at the end of the day, what did anyone get out of this spool of a conversation? :X

Could have been money matching on who was gonna win EVO or ARCREVO or some shit

[Jocelot]

ArcRevo is gonna be Nage and his damned Faust....again.

 

EVO is gonna be a coinflip...between 2 Japanese players in Grand Finals

[D.R.F.]

... Even though Gazou Faust won ArcREVO?

[king of heart]

ArcRevo is gonna be Nage and his damned Faust....again.

EVO is gonna be a coinflip...between 2 Japanese players in Grand Finals

Nage/ Nakamura/ Roi

I would say

Ogawa/ Karinchou / Sharon

is the strongest team

[Blade]

The day someone online in Netplay says "You're the best [insert character here]-player I have ever seen!" is the day you can admit you're at least "reasonably" good at a character.

 

Seriously guys, humble pie is misleading and annoying as heck around here, especially since we're pretty much preaching to the choir about good competitive gameplay. (Meaning: there's already a forum full of good players here, so why say you're 'not good' when in reality you're better than average casual players?)

 

^By the way someone said that about my Bedman a few days ago: My reply:

 

"You haven't fought enough Bedmen, then."

 

And yeah, the whole idea of SF4 being more accessible is utter bullcrap, because I played it and sold it a few weeks later, that should tell you something.

[Kaizen]

The day someone online in Netplay says "You're the best [insert character here]-player I have ever seen!" is the day you can admit you're at least "reasonably" good at a character.

 

Seriously guys, humble pie is misleading and annoying as heck around here, especially since we're pretty much preaching to the choir about good competitive gameplay. (Meaning: there's already a forum full of good players here, so why say you're 'not good' when in reality you're better than average casual players?)

 

"Average Casual Players" in netplay is the worst possible measure of skill imaginable. Using the lowest common denominator as a metric is the best way to ruin any intention of improving. If your goal is to be better than average, then you're not setting your bar very high.

 

Let me tell you a story. Way before I started playing Guilty Gear, before I even played fighting games competitively, I did fencing. Did it for four years. Quit for a variety of reasons, and while I never found another physically demanding competitive activity to fill its gap, I gained plenty of insight comparing my current competitive career to back when I was a naive high school kid. My coach was inevitably upset that I left, concerning how he once told my folks that he "didn't want to see my physical talent go to waste". I don't think I ever even told him directly why I was quitting, and I feel terrible about it, but that's besides the point.

One of my first instructors once told me of the word Kaizen. It is, of course, a Japanese term: indicative of the ideology of "Continuous, unending improvement". Even if the only metric you have is others, when you begin demolishing every opponent who walks into your dinky corner of the world, what's next? You can either stagnate by patting yourself on the back for being "good enough", or you can move up and find that your pond of mediocrity gets swallowed by the ocean of talent in every corner of the world. I had to forcibly overcome an unearned sense of arrogance that came from that naivety, and a steady diet of humility is the perfect remedy to that toxic mentality.

 

If it's good enough for you to be above average, fine. But don't preach to those of us who want to take it as far as we can.

[TekkamanArk]

"Average Casual Players" in netplay is the worst possible measure of skill imaginable. Using the lowest common denominator as a metric is the best way to ruin any intention of improving. If your goal is to be better than average, then you're not setting your bar very high.

 

Let me tell you a story. Way before I started playing Guilty Gear, before I even played fighting games competitively, I did fencing. Did it for four years. Quit for a variety of reasons, and while I never found another physically demanding competitive activity to fill its gap, I gained plenty of insight comparing my current competitive career to back when I was a naive high school kid. My coach was inevitably upset that I left, concerning how he once told my folks that he "didn't want to see my physical talent go to waste". I don't think I ever even told him directly why I was quitting, and I feel terrible about it, but that's besides the point.

One of my first instructors once told me of the word Kaizen. It is, of course, a Japanese term: indicative of the ideology of "Continuous, unending improvement". Even if the only metric you have is others, when you begin demolishing every opponent who walks into your dinky corner of the world, what's next? You can either stagnate by patting yourself on the back for being "good enough", or you can move up and find that your pond of mediocrity gets swallowed by the ocean of talent in every corner of the world. I had to forcibly overcome an unearned sense of arrogance that came from that naivety, and a steady diet of humility is the perfect remedy to that toxic mentality.

 

If it's good enough for you to be above average, fine. But don't preach to those of us who want to take it as far as we can.

 

What does this mean for me, someone who can very easily go "well, I know i'm not good honestly, but, I have a lot of fun playing with my friends anyway regardless of who wins"?

[greatfernman]

The day someone online in Netplay says "You're the best [insert character here]-player I have ever seen!" is the day you can admit you're at least "reasonably" good at a character.

^By the way someone said that about my Bedman a few days ago:

#humblebrag #netplaystories

And yeah, the whole idea of SF4 being more accessible is utter bullcrap, because I played it and sold it a few weeks later, that should tell you something.

cool story.

what does that tell us about sf4 besides the fact that you don't like it?

[D.R.F.]

^ I've been waiting for someone to say that