[Xrd] Ramlethal - Oki Thread WIP (Updated 01/20/2015)

Sakaku · December 21, 2014

Information

If you'd like to contribute, please feel free to do so!
Please refrain from going off topic in this thread. This thread is for posting and discussion of oki setups only.

Oki Videos

Midscreen

Collapsed: 2KK Ender:

Collapsed: 2D Ender:

Collapsed: PPP Ender:

Collapsed: Throw:

Corner

Collapsed: 2KK Ender:

Collapsed: 2D Ender:

Collapsed: Wallsplat reset:

Collapsed: PPP Ender:

Collapsed: Throw:

Collapsed: 5K4K Ender:

Sakaku · January 5, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlaNLrWrESE&t=37:01

Just noticed a few more instant over heads and fuzzy guard set ups from Batako.

At 37:01 in the video he lands a back throw to the corner. Does 6HS and tries to time what I'm assuming is an instant over head j.K but misses it.

At 37:15 he lands PPP wall splat dash c.S, 5HS jump cancel max height j.2S, air dash j.K, j.2HS, land and then an immediate j.K for what I'm assuming is the fuzzy guard. When it connected you clearly see the exclamation mark notification that you got hit by a high when you were crouch blocking. I'm not sure if this is just Bedman specific or if it works on any other characters since I just noticed this set up.

That setup worked on the 3-4 chars I tried it on but idk if its universal. It just requires you to time the rising j.K while they are still in blockstun from the last sword so do it quickly. It can also be done off of 2d pretty easily.

The other Batoko setup is doing the same oki but instead of rising j.K he just does land 6K. This works on block or if any of the parts hit so it is useful as well.

Quoted these posts here because they seem to be more fitting for this thread.

For the first setup:

It is actually possible to do IOH j.K on wake-up ... in pmode. The dummy will stand for at least a frame on his wake-up instead of immediately going to crouching state.

Dummy: Last wake-up frame -> First post wake-up frame

Player: Last wake-up frame -> First post wake-up frame

Based from what I've tested you can immediately crouch block after the wake-up invincibility frames, so it doesn't seem like you can catch the opponent's standing hitbox on the first frame after the invincibility runs out.

I believe it's a measure to prevent the opponent from jumping out of the corner while still getting both swords deployed relatively safely.

TheArm05 · January 5, 2015

Been seeing Batoko go for splat > iad j.K j.S j.8D land j.2S land j.2HS oki quite a bit lately. It seems to be one of Rams safest oki setups since it relies on swords putting them in blockstun before going in for a mixup.

Again j.2S + j.2HS oki can be done off of 2D ender after a splat. I really think 2D is just Rams best ender since she can go into so many different setups off of it.

After both sword sets you can do dash up 2D/6K or dash jump j.K/empty 2D/late airdash j.K as usual

Killey · January 20, 2015

You should add the following under Corner 2D Enders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esPNiqJCryQ

Setup: 2D > jc > j.2S > 2PPK > YRC > j.K/2D

Swords: 6S deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires lengthy combo starter so that 2D has significant push back for timing 2PPK > YRC > j.K/2D. The j.K option will whiff on heavy weight characters such as Bedman and Potemkin the 2D option still works on them.

Reversal safe: Safe against certain reversal overdrives (ie. Zato-1's Amorphous (632146HS), Elphet's Judge Better Half (236236D), not safe against reversal DP (ie. Sol's Volcanic Viper), not safe against Blitz Shield.

Notes: YRC timing is immediately after K to make Ramlethal airborne while giving enough time to do j.K. If done too late j.K won't come out or it'll whiff. The reversal overdrive and DP timings are tight due to YRC slow down. Most overdrives I've tested allow you to block making this is a frame specific safe jump. It loses to some reversal DP's but haven't tested with the entire cast. If you do the j.K option the opponent can mash Blitz Shield on wake up to counter it. You can make the opponent second guess the Blitz Shield with the 2D option.

Add the following to Corner throw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esPNiqJCryQ&t=50

Setup: Throw > 6S > 6HS > Backdash YRC > j.K

Swords: Both swords equipped.

Info: Backdash YRC leaves Ramlethal airborne allowing for low j.K. Timing on YRC needs to be immediate otherwise j.K whiffs.

Reversal Safe: No.

Add the following to either PPP Ender or Wall Splat Reset. I'm not really sure if you're defining PPP ender as the wall splat or if you've already done a wall splat and PPP does a knockdown instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esPNiqJCryQ&t=1m20s

Setup: PPP > 2HS > 2PPK > YRC > j.K/2D

Swords: 6S/HS deployed (any distance)

Info: PPP needs to hit low to the ground so that the wall splat slides to the ground and the opponent is unable to tech recover. Requires lengthy combo starter so that PPP has significant push back for timing 2PPK > YRC > j.K/2D. Requires further testing on the cast but it does not appear to work on light weight characters.

Reversal safe:

Create a new category under Corner oki titled 5K4K Enders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCUT_v_pe7M

Setup: 5K4K > dash jump > max height 2S > YRC > deep j.K > dj(7).K

Swords: Both swords deployed at close distance.

Info: Only works on Slayer, Zato-1, and Potemkin (maybe Sol?). First j.K is a cross up then dj.K is a fuzzy guard. Combo into 5K4K must be short otherwise 4K will whiff due to natural push back.

Reversal Safe: No. Can reversal DP or Blitz Shield first j.K.

muerto · January 31, 2015

Since different wake up timings are a bitch to remember, i did some simple tables to help me remember the timings of the meaty atacks on different characters, using the most common meaty atacks (2k, 6k, jk) on facedown oponents (no faceup timing because to my knowledge theres no actual oki on faceup kd with ram).

Every color on the tables is a different timing and the timming assumes you will hit the enemy char with the first active frame of your atack, of couse this might not work in every oki situation because of w/e reason and the timing presented on the tables is in essence 1f timing so you might need to do some adjustements and end up with 1 or 2 extra but i think this is a good start and any input on how to make this better is appreciated.

XuxuBelezA · February 13, 2015

so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c072FpKqrMc&t=5m25s

does anyone understand exactly what Dei does that makes Ky turn around and move away from the corner?

I want to do this on my friends, badly

Killey · February 25, 2015

Create new section under Corner setups for j.8D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c072FpKqrMc&feature=youtu.be&t=53s

Setup: Combo starter > dash j.8D > 6HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S and HS swords deployed away from the corner

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. When the swords aren't deployed in the corner there's additional start up for the swords to attack as they need to travel the opponent first. This additional start up time is the same whether it's midscreen, fullscreen, or just slightly out of the corner. This prevents the typical corner combo of c.S, 5HS, 6S from connecting. By doing c.S, j.2S, c.S xx Daruo you're accounting for the additional start up and getting a knock down through j.8D. The additional start up on 6HS to reach the opponent makes it meaty on a good portion of the cast. This allows you to set up j.2S and then go for a multi-layered mix up. This is only reversal safe up to j.2S so you can be interrupted if you push offense after j.2S.

Meaty On:

Reversal Safe: Safe vs everything except Ramlethal's Explode overdrive.

Setup: Combo starter > dash j.8D > 5P (whiff) > 2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. In the above scenario you use the additional start up time to set up a meaty but when the HS sword is deployed near the opponent you don't have that additional start up. Utilizing a whiffed 5P and the 2 variant of the HS sword deploy creates a buffer for the attack to hit meaty on most light weight characters. The follow up j.2S allows you to go for a multi-layered mix up. Against characters with no reversal options you can do dash j.2S, land, 6K, 2D, 2KP, or tick command grab to make the mix up harder to react to. While I've noted these as reversal safe, it's only reversal safe up to j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S you can be interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Millia, May, Chipp, Elphet, Ramlethal

Reversal Safe: Safe vs everything except for Ramlethal's Explode overdrive.

Setup: Combo starter > dash j.8D > immediate nj.2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S & HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. The neutral jump for nj.2HS is to time it as a meaty against the characters that whiff 5P, 2HS doesn't meaty on. The nj.2HS needs to be done immediately after j.8D hits. The follow up j.2S allows you to go for a multi-layered mix up. Against characters with no meter-less reversal options you can do dash j.2S, land, 6K, 2KP, 2D, or tick command grab to make the mix up harder to react to. While I've listed that the set up is reversal safe, realistically it's only reversal safe up to the j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S it's possible to get interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Faust, Sol, Axl, Venom, Leo, Zato

Reversal Safe: Yes.

Setup: Combo starter > dash j.8D > slight delay j.2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S sword deployed, HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. In order for the j.2HS to meaty you immediately jump after j.8D but delay j.2HS slightly. While I've listed that the set up is reversal safe, realistically it's only reversal safe up to the j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S it's possible to get interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Sin, Ky, Potemkin, Slayer, Ino, Bedman

Reversal Safe: Yes.

Combo Stater: c.S, (2D) > 623P > dash PPP (wall splat) > c.S >5HS > nj.2HS > c.S > j.2HS hits > j7.2S > air dash > j.HS > j.2S hits > j.8D

Setup: Refer to combo starter > 5P (whiff) > 2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S sword deployed, HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. The 5P whiff is to time the 2HS as a meaty. The follow up j.2S allows you to go for a multi-layered mix up. Against characters with no meter-less reversal options you can do dash j.2S, land, 6K, 2D, 2KP, or tick into command grab to make the mix up harder to react to. While I've noted these as reversal safe, it's only reversal safe up to j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S you can be interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Millia, May, Chipp, Elphet, Ramlethal

Reversal Safe: Safe vs everything except for Ramlethal's Explode overdrive.

Setup: Refer to combo starter > immediate nj.2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S sword deployed, HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. The neutral jump for nj.2HS is to time it as a meaty against the characters that whiff 5P, 2HS doesn't meaty on. The nj.2HS needs to be done immediately after j.8D hits. The follow up j.2S allows you to go for a multi-layered mix up. Against characters with no meter-less reversal options you can do dash j.2S, land, 6K, 2KP, 2D, or tick command grab. While I've listed that the set up is reversal safe, realistically it's only reversal safe up to the j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S it's possible to get interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Faust, Sol, Axl, Venom, Leo, Zato

Reversal Safe: Yes.

Setup: Refer to combo starter > slight delay j.2HS > j.2S > dash 6K, 3K/2KP/2D, or tick command grab

Swords: S sword deployed, HS sword deployed in the corner near the opponent

Info: Requires a short combo for the wall splat in order for the set up to work. A long combo prevents the j.8D ender from connecting. In order for the j.2HS to meaty you immediately jump after j.8D but delay j.2HS slightly. While I've listed that the set up is reversal safe, realistically it's only reversal safe up to the j.2S. If you push offense after j.2S it's possible to get interrupted. There's also a few characters who can wake up back dash to cause the first sword to whiff.

Meaty On: Sin, Ky, Potemkin, Slayer, Ino, Bedman

Reversal Safe: Yes.

Putin · February 25, 2015

Are you sure the first setup is completely reversal safe?

I've been messing around with it since Dei's set got uploaded, and only 2D seems be completely safe, I guess maybe 2K and 3K as well but I don't see why you'd want to do that. I could DP through 6K, and Cargo is obviously always unsafe.

6H > dash j.2S seems to behave the same as non dash j.2S, you just dash for longer afterwards in the non dash version. The only thing that's different is how early or late j.2S hits, I don't really remember in which case it happened but sometimes it hit too early after 2D, so it didn't launch that high up for me to combo

Maybe we could try doing j.2S a little later, so we can get airdash mixup. I'll hop into the lab to test if it hits meaty whenever I get the chance

Killey · February 25, 2015

If you do neutral j.2S wait then go for dash 6K it's reversal safe. The reversal VV whiffs and j.2S clips them and you convert from it.

Complexity · February 25, 2015

so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c072FpKqrMc&t=5m25s

does anyone understand exactly what Dei does that makes Ky turn around and move away from the corner?

I want to do this on my friends, badly

The moves that he is using don't vacuum the opponent. Clarification required on how he's doing it.

Killey · February 25, 2015

It looks like either j.2HS pulls the opponent slightly out of the corner or the height and timing of the air dash j.K causes a brief change of direction. There's a few frames of cross up protection so the j.K doesn't hit as a cross up. Roz's RISC bar wasn't cranked and when the S sword hit you see "counter hit" pop up so there's definitely a large enough hole in that string for 2S to hit as a cross up. I'll try recreating this situation in training mode tonight and see what's up but it looks tough to replicate due to the height.

Complexity · February 25, 2015

In theory it shouldn't be possible if the opponent is dead in the corner and there's no move with vacuum effect being used. I tested for 2h, j.2h, j.k and j.2s none of them pull the opponent out of the corner on block. Another reason might be because j.8d somehow pulls the opponent out of the corner when it hits though I never seen that happen before. Of course, there's also always the possibility that Roz chose to walk slightly forward at that very instance and let Dei cross him up.

zaeris · February 25, 2015

This happens often when the opponent buffers a forward motion often the case of a forward dp motion. Basically he move and realistically trying to attempt this is basicly gambking your oppoenet will either mash dp usually after a block sword or something isnt practical

zaeris · February 28, 2015

I dont know if its tension spent wisely.

PPP wall stick dash 5.s 5.hs jc j2s land j.2hs yrc j.k land raising j.k/2d/2k.

Complexity · February 28, 2015

I dont know if its tension spent wisely.
PPP wall stick dash 5.s 5.hs jc j2s land j.2hs yrc j.k land raising j.k/2d/2k.

The j.2s will reset the opponent's sprite once the opponent blocks it and he will be crouching if he's holding down back. Your rising j.k will whiff.

zaeris · February 28, 2015

The j.2s will reset the opponent's sprite once the opponent blocks it and he will be crouching if he's holding down back. Your rising j.k will whiff.

Howdo i explain this. The j2s seems to add to the jk blockstun often i did get fuzzy with test in training mode and replay and blocking low after blocking the over head to see if fuzzy works.

I will post a vid later although i could be wrong.

Complexity · February 28, 2015

Your best bet is to set the training dummy to crouch and block everything.

zaeris · February 28, 2015

Your best bet is to set the training dummy to crouch and block everything.

I do more test to see and enable switch block on 2nd hit while crouching status is on.

Edit. Still at work but im wondering if test should be done in such a manner considering if its humanly possible to switch block in a rapid succession. Rather using replay and test but still a valid point.

Putin · February 28, 2015

Since you're lready onto it, how does fuzzy j.K work? I don't know when and how it happens, or how useful it is over regular mixups.

zaeris · February 28, 2015

Since you're lready onto it, how does fuzzy j.K work? I don't know when and how it happens, or how useful it is over regular mixups.

Fuzzy guard is quite a common concept where you retain your opponent original hitbox on block and land another j.k that would hit standing however on a crouching opponent instead. How it works, when your opponent blocks something high it keeps that standing position even if they are crouching during that blockstun. Raising jk whiff on crouching except under fuzzy.

Problem is ramlethal cannot natural create fuzzy by herself because her air normals do not have enough blockstun or recovery to enable thus unlike dizzy jhs raising jp. Rather you use a meaty setup instead e.g swords and ramlethal j.k. the other method is deep j.k jc j.k works on some characters. However since you dont land youre sorta givng away that info that yiu keep block high till you see them land.

Like zato unblockable its just a high and low but humanly you cannot switch block in one frame. And the player takes priority in this case then the sword. I guess you just think it if jk and j2s both meaty at the same time what happens. J.k hits frame 1 then j2s frame 2, this first part satisfy fuzzy because your opponent block something standing and allows you to connect a raising j.k during that block stun.

Why is it useful? Its an unreactable mix up in a sense because raising j.k plus start up is less than something you can react, something like 13 frames. Where you could opt to go low instead which is another yomi for the opponent to consider.

Killey · March 1, 2015

I've modified my post in regards to getting a meaty sword set up after j.8D. It's actually possible to get a meaty 2HS on the entire cast after a specific corner combo ending in j.8D. Some characters can back dash to make the first sword whiff and there's gap between the first and second sword to interrupt the mix up but the majority of her mix ups are kind of like that.

Complexity · March 1, 2015

Fuzzy guard is quite a common concept where you retain your opponent original hitbox on block and land another j.k that would hit standing however on a crouching opponent instead. How it works, when your opponent blocks something high it keeps that standing position even if they are crouching during that blockstun. Raising jk whiff on crouching except under fuzzy.
Problem is ramlethal cannot natural create fuzzy by herself because her air normals do not have enough blockstun or recovery to enable thus unlike dizzy jhs raising jp. Rather you use a meaty setup instead e.g swords and ramlethal j.k. the other method is deep j.k jc j.k works on some characters. However since you dont land youre sorta givng away that info that yiu keep block high till you see them land.
Like zato unblockable its just a high and low but humanly you cannot switch block in one frame. And the player takes priority in this case then the sword. I guess you just think it if jk and j2s both meaty at the same time what happens. J.k hits frame 1 then j2s frame 2, this first part satisfy fuzzy because your opponent block something standing and allows you to connect a raising j.k during that block stun.
Why is it useful? Its an unreactable mix up in a sense because raising j.k plus start up is less than something you can react, something like 13 frames. Where you could opt to go low instead which is another yomi for the opponent to consider.

I have tried the setup and yes indeed it works. Your theory behind which the setup works is also correct. However, there are a couple of flaws.

1) It loses to OS blocking. If the first j.k is too deep, there is no way Ramlethal can do another high move before she lands. Doing 4~1 will block the first j.k and crouch the rising j.k. There is no reason for the opponent to be stand blocking after the first j.k. You can't even do air Detruo after the deep j.k. The timing to do 4~1 is pretty tight though, so if the opponent has no clue as to how the setup works, he will be standing after 2s hits.

2) Doesn't work on Chipp, May and Faust IIRC from my previous fuzzy j.k experiments.

Aside from that however, the setup is pretty damn good even if the fuzzy j.k does not work on the aforementioned characters. It's a safe jump plus two swords allowing for many variations of mixups. I'll see if I can make the setup even better.

zaeris · March 1, 2015

Im trying to find the meaty timing for j2s although its easier using j2hs meaty instead 4 frame faster start up or something and use j2s to combo after fuzzy instead. The idea is to make the opponent block j.2s/j.2hs high because you made them block jk with the next frame for sword meaty.

Im still under the assumption people cant change block position from 4 to 1input faster enough ( direction input) and the next part after blocking meaty swords high is landing for a raising j.k does work on more characters believe. Was on a vid i saw on youtube.

Still working I will get more testing later when possible. Anyway, any improvement to ramlethal oki is a plus.

Edit: timing requires for jk to land during j2hs/jhs active frames for tighter block switch. Otherwise it does have a weakness in general if they opponent knows the oki which is switch block and easiest is to ib the first j.k and go to position 2 quickly.

Just re-read it lol.

Try ppp dash 5s 5hs jc j2hs land j2s yrc instead. I use the other way because of the way i configure my controller where j2hs yrc is easier to hit.

Killey · March 9, 2015

Another meaty sword set up for the corner.

2D Ender:

Setup: PPP (wall splat) > dash c.S > f.S > 6HS > dash c.S/5HS > 6S > 6HS hits > dash c.S > 6S hits > dash c.S > 2D > 2HS > dash j.2S > 6K, 2D, air dash j.K or command grab

Swords: S & HS sword equipped.

Info: Requires a longer combo for the wall splat. This is a meaty sword setup in the corner when the swords are equipped. The post wall splat combo is a bit tricky as you need to add some delays for the 6HS to combo properly. The reason you start with 6HS instead of 6S is that the 2HS after the 2D perfectly times a meaty of certain members of the cast. 2S has too much start up and can't be used for a meaty. The other tricky part is that because you use 6S late into the combo the S sword doesn't recover in time after the meaty 2HS. You actually have to do a normal jump and wait a bit for the S sword to recover for the j.2S to activate. There's definitely a gap between 2HS and j.2S for the opponent to try something but it's reversal safe up to the j.2S. If you actually space it properly the 6K will be at max range to avoid some characters pokes such as Millia's 2K or 2P. You gain access to late air dash mix ups so it adds another layer to an already established mix up game.

Meaty On: Millia, Sol (investigating the rest of the cast)

Reversal Safe: Yes, up to the j.2S.

Setup: PPP (wall splat) > dash c.S > 5HS > 6S > 6S hits > dash c.S > 2D > 2HS > j.2S > 6K, 2D, late air dash j.K, or command grab

Swords: S & HS sword deployed near the corner.

Info: Requires a longer combo first. Mostly used for confirms off of maximized confirms from sword oki. Works the same as the above set up but modified for when the swords are deployed already.

Meaty On: Millia, Sol (investigating the rest of the cast)

Reversal Safe: Yes, up to the j.2S.

Complexity · March 9, 2015

It might whiff on Bedman and Elphelt. Some characters might need a delayed 2h cancel from 2d or else it will whiff on them too.

Archived

[Xrd] Ramlethal - Oki Thread *WIP* (Updated 01/20/2015)

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[Xrd] Ramlethal - Oki Thread WIP (Updated 01/20/2015)