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Sakaku

[Xrd] Ramlethal - Oki Thread *WIP* (Updated 01/20/2015)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYsRYyMeK_w&feature=youtu.be&t=5m

 

This is looking really interesting, Daiji doing 4K ender into sj.6H yrc > j.2S > falling j.K. j.6H is what actually crosses Isamu up which seems almost impossible to react to.

He did it plenty of times throughout the set, he didn't crossup a few times iirc but I didn't timestamp it unfortunately so I don't know how you actually control the left/right mixup.

 

I messed around with it for a few minutes but couldn't pull it off correctly, I always switched sides during the superjump so I had to invert my inputs from j.6H onward. Which is bad because that's a visual cue right there for the opponent to react to the crossup.

The way I did it also made it impossible to NOT crossup, since I couldn't use a forward superjump.

 

Half-assed information I know, but I wanted to put it out there in case people missed it so we can figure it out. I'll try to experiment with it a little more next time I get some lab time

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That looks cheap as fuck. Although from the video alone we cant really confirm whether or not this j.2H crossup works for sure. I think the j.6S yrc is done on left side but the momentum from the dash crosses them up and j.2H just flips ram (superjump also causes the player to flip too when crossing up). Ill test later

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It's j.6h that he's using to crossup and j.2s that he's using to combo. He's also using 25 meter for a 50/50 setup, which seems pretty honest to me. I guess the good part is that the 50/50 is clean.

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It's super honest. It costs meter AND because you use an YRC it prorates the combo a lot so the following combo does piss poor damage. Please, other characters have METERLESS options that are more ambigious than this. Does anyone on stream call out cheapness when a Zato uses his unblockble??? NO. THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN XRD.

 

The setup is pretty simple. Do a 4K ender, then jump over the opponent (or just straight up), then do 6H YRC. If you want a crossup, do an airdash over your opponent into j2S, or don't airdash (or just YRC jump) and do a followup j2S. After the j2S you fall down into either jK or jP. If you don't do a airjump after the YRC I suggest doing falling jP because it's faster, jump > YRC > dash > j2S > jK is really strict and with the proration after the YRC it doesn't make a huge difference anyway.

 

This is a great setup because if the 6H hits, falling jK/jP combos so the 2S will hit. If the 6H is blocked he still needs to guess correctly if you're doing a falling jK/jP or just land 2KP / cmd grab. Land 2KP is good because 2S is already activated and you want the fastest low possible. Alternatively, land 6K if they switchblock a lot, at the risk of creating gaps in this setup. You can also jump over 6H YRC 2S falling jK fuzzy jK if you want and have the execution for it. Keep in mind that if you do the fuzzy and they get hit by the falling jK the fuzzy does not work because Ram is a fair and honest character that rewards solid fundamentals and always was!!

 

He does NOT use a superjump in the video, if he did he wouldn't be able to airjump after the YRC. He uses a regular jump. The Venom-player either wasn't aware that the 4K oki puts him outside the corner so that Ram was behind him, or he guessed incorrectly that he was going for a crossup which only works if he's seen the crossup setup before.

 

NTR_, if you don't dash before a jump, a sword call halts Rams momentum in the air entirely. The j6S is definitely done on the right side, if it was done on the left Ram wouldn't be on the right side of Venom at all. 4K ender pulls more out of the corner than what people expect.

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I too think its a normal jump and not a super where the flexibility lies in the second jump which could be 9 or 7 therefore making it a cross over or fake cross. The second reason for doing so allows you to first land j6hs on either a left or right side with the yrc second jump to again change sides. There was 2 occassion it happen on the left and right side of the right corner. So even if your opponent knew of the set up you can change it in the final moments much like throwing a splitter in baseball.

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Ram is a fair and honest character that rewards solid fundamentals and always was!!

 

I lol-ed. If anything, Ramlethal was once super dishonest and is still dishonest in the current version but a little bit fairer. I don't see how being able to end a game with setplay alone can ever be honest gameplay. It's like calling Millia's Tandem Top oki in the corner honest.

 

It's also horribly hard to use fundamentals to play solidly with her. If you notice, her most favoured neutral tactics like f.s Daruo, j.h, airdash j.p, 2s and Cassius are not the safest things to do and can be punished should the opponent be familiar with playing against Ramlethal. She doesn't have a way to apply safe and good pressure outside the corner because of her lack of gatlings. In most situations, if you were to score a hit as Ramlethal, it's not because you opened up your opponent, but because he so happened to hit a move at the same time as you did and that you CH-ed the guy for doing so. Your opponent pretty much has to make a mistake for you to do something, a trait that doesn't exist in most other characters because they actually have gatlings that they can play frame trap/throw games (Sol/Millia), some form of high low game (Zato) or that your opponent forces you to react to them (Faust). Ramlethal used to be able to force her opponents to react to her, but the ability to punch swords took that away so yeah whatever. What I'm saying is that there's no solid game plan that Ramlethal can employ to win. It's somewhat similar to Slayer, where he swings his fists randomly and suddenly he gets a hit for huge damage.

 

Ramlethal is like a jackpot character. Since there's no clean way to play her, most of the time you just want to throw out her huge normals until you get a good hit, then send them to the corner and hope they never leave. Maybe that's why FAB thinks she sucks because JP players have never liked playing unsafe to win.

 

Sorry this doesn't pertain anything to oki.

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@complexity

Your statements sounds rathering conflicting.

Guilty gear often favours better neutral rather than oki but of course having good neutral and oki does push into the better tier bracket.

Ram currently has it harder with neutral and itself is an issue where oki still boils down to low high or throw with a bit of left and right mix up sometimes.

But with a better neutral in general you gain more advantage with each kd. Even with lesser strengh in oki, a simple oki that is just low high or throw works just as effective.

Its still an issue of converting random hits into kd which ramlethal needs a few condition to satisfying first where other character has that easy that easy conversion. I do beleive working harder at neutral for a strong okizeme doesnt make it unfair, since the nature of oki doesnt change being low high ectera and gg has always had okizeme being the root of game. This is why comeback can happen at the high level with just one kd.

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woah woah i meant that as a joke (kind of like the guys were joking in the video). Back to oki and ram's fat ass now.

 

Also what would you combo after the j.k fuzzy setup?

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woah woah i meant that as a joke (kind of like the guys were joking in the video). Back to oki and ram's fat ass now.

Also what would you combo after the j.k fuzzy setup?

I'm trying to understanding what you mean by fuzzy jk set up. If your referring to nyaa 2kk fuzzy set up I believe there is already a combo shown.

General double j.k fuzzy Jk jc jk s sword hit the likely follow up is falling j.k low j.p c.s darou.

Note that for any forward moment j6hs I.e 6686hs jk jc j8k required. Which would give your 8 direction a forward arc, momentum carried forward.

Sword fuzzy hs sword standing guard land raising j.k s sword hit falling j.s c.s darou

No sword deployed fuzzy j.k

Standing block anything i.e c.s raising j.k fuzzy rc delay falling jhs (sword equip) but jk js might work also.

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Hmm, after 4K oki with swords deployed, doing superjump > j2S > falling jK CAN BE a safejump against Sol/Ky.

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I've noticed yesterday that if I opt to go for Dustloops in the corner it's really hard to setup KK4K, due to higher pushback. Is the only solution to reduce my combocounter or am I missing something? Neither with sword or without them is working for me.

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I've noticed yesterday that if I opt to go for Dustloops in the corner it's really hard to setup KK4K, due to higher pushback. Is the only solution to reduce my combocounter or am I missing something? Neither with sword or without them is working for me.

Doing more than one dustloop makes it very hard to get a 4K ender but its doable with just one.

 

with swords:

c.S j8D IAD jK jS j8D 66 5PPP 66 c.S f.S 6S 66 delayed c.S 6H 66 5KK4K

 

without both swords:

c.S j8D IAD jK jS j8D 66 5PPP IAD delayed jK j2H c.S j2S 66 5K~4K

 

If you have just one sword c.S 5H 6H/S 66 5KK4K after 5PPP wall splat works too.

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Hmm, realized today you can do jump, j2H immediately YRC jK jc JK fuzzy. If the second jK in the fuzzy hits before 2H hits it won't count as a YRC combo and won't be prorated. You can cover your approach with a 2S after a knockdown, run up jump j2H. This is a multi-mixup, you can either do j2H YRC land low, j2H YRC jK land low or j2H YRC jK jc jK fuzzy.

 

I would record this but my PS3 is at a convention this weekend.

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Added 2S in the mix and made a short video about it.

Fuzzy and low options won't trigger YRC combo proration so this does good damage.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UoQgmnwQ1M

 

Fuzzy is not a true fuzzy, if they stand-block jK then crouch-block 2S immediately they won't get hit by the rising jK, but if they standblock both jK and 2S then it's a fuzzy. However the timing to correctly switchblock this is pretty tight and you kinda have to know about it.

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What oki would be best for someone mashing a fast move to disrespect the sword summon oki?

I assume this is for corner oki but anything that hits meaty should counterhit them pressing buttons on wakeup. So 2D 6H with sword, 2D j2H on certain characters, or just about any setup with a sword set YRC. 

 

Also this thread is a mess. We really need a new oki thread.

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Mind that depending on character and/or number of hits prior in a combo, 2D-oki setups might not make the swords hit meaty. One of Rams best tools for a meaty setup is anything into swords into 3K. It's active for super long and will beat anything on wakeup that's not a crouch-block, DP, backdash or blitz.

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I assume this is for corner oki but anything that hits meaty should counterhit them pressing buttons on wakeup. So 2D 6H with sword, 2D j2H on certain characters, or just about any setup with a sword set YRC. 

 

Also this thread is a mess. We really need a new oki thread.

 

I'm just not making the sword summon meaty enough then. I also mainly get 2KK or 2KPK knockdowns. Can we not just make a new thread then or update this one?

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These knockdowns don't offer you meaty sword setups unless they are already deployed by the opponent. But you shouldn't be getting these enders in the corner anyway, and her midscreen oki game isn't particularly strong besides 5KK ender

 

Here are some ideas for your main enders though

https://youtu.be/fFSfX4s3fgQ?t=671

https://youtu.be/fFSfX4s3fgQ?t=672

 

And there's always the plain and simple deploy > meaty 2K, it should catch mashers and condition them to block so you can go for 6K later on, but it obviously loses to reversals since you're the one hitting meaty and not the swords and it's not a safejump like the second clip.

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Depending on how I carry to the wall and mood I might go for a 2D-ender if I have a sword out and want some corner lockdown.

 

Combo > PPP *splat* cSfS xx 4S/H > 2D xx 6S/H

 

Even if it's not always meaty it forces the opponent to stay in the corner.

 

- - - -

 

I find 2K hard to meaty properly with for some reason. Characters have wacky different wakeup-frames. 3K is a solid meaty option as it's active forever, and backed by a swordcall you get combo on hit / safe/pressure on block. Also because it's quite low profiling Ky's DP won't hit her.

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Alright I think I worked out who 2D 6H will hit meaty on. Nyaa pointed out that its based on the number of hits in the gameplay discussion thread so I tested this using a standard combo of 16 hits:

 

2D 623P c.S j8D IAD jK jS j8D 66 PPP 66 c.S 5H 6S 66 c.S 66 c.S 2D 6H  

 

This doesn't work on every character but I adjusted it for the characters that it doesn't work on for the same amount of hits. If a character was able to jump out, I lowered the amount of hits in the combo until they were unable to. 

 

6H will always hit meaty on: Sin, Millia, Faust, Chipp, Elphelt, Potemkin, Ramlethal, Venom, Leo and Bedman.

 

6H will will stop hitting meaty after X hits on: Sol(9), Ky(9), May(14), Slayer(17), I-No(15), Axl(12), and Zato(13).

 

There's probably a point where every character can jump out but I couldn't get a combo above 17 hits without using trance or calvados that ends with 2D 6H. Also using either of those supers as a starter kills your oki, pretty sure every character can jump out at 30+ hits.

 

The only real issues seem to be Sol, Ky, Axl and Zato. Maybe May. Ky and Sol would require a very weak combo that would be hard or impossible to adjust too depending on the starter. Omit IAD strings against Axl and Zato and it should work on them.

 

Even if they choose to jump out though, theyre still going to be at a disadvantage from having to block 6H in the air. Ram can either hit them out of jump startup herself or just let it rock and try a mixup anyway as 6H keeps them very low to the ground. 

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The only real issue of not having a meaty 6hs is that reversal timing increase given they would have extra frames of input to enter special after reversal window frames. If they just jump and block a 6hs it would be low to ground and various other option still work.

What 6hs doesnt meaty allows for j2s iad jk to meaty instead, its nice have other option.

edit guess i should contribute also...

double depolyed sword oki after 2d corner.

the very useful daiji fake fuzzy

2d jc7 j2s delay airdash jk j2hs cancel : option 2d, raising jk, 6k

2d ->low j2hs/j2s/ or iad back j2s land 214p yrc 66j82s / j2hs land, option 214p, 2d, 2kp, jk

basic startegy 214 aims for low health chipping, your 2d 2kp and jk 6k are your mix up option.

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