[Xrd] Venom Formations and Ball Setups Thread

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

That would be P>K set to dash jS, and from my testing so far yes it's blitz safe.

[BurkishMan]

Ya i finally got time to test today and ya it seems all of venoms corner stuff is safe for the most part. When it comes to midsscreen kball oki the timing is pretty tight after a 6h to get the micro dash into Js so that it doesnt get rejected and doesny whiff on crouchers But it does seem universally safe from the 7 characters i tested on.

[Sunfish]

Hi venom bros, I found a strange Corner cross-up that you guys may want to explore.

 

Ball Set is S>K>HS. Use 5P to hit balls S+K. Teleport immediately, and you should cross-up. The setup is heavily timing dependent (I find doing 6HS>KQV>HSbs will typically cause balls to whiff, while 6HS>Kbs>HSbs will hit meaty). If the S ball hits or is blocked meaty, it will not cross-up on crouching opponents, only on standing. If you time the balls to whiff, you get your cross-up. Easiest to get off of the c.S>SQV>d.j.KSHSD route.

 

Using the meaty variant, you will also bait VV. DP will push sol forward enough for you to cross him up (Haven't tested against other DPs). The teleport will also serve as a decent High/Low guessing game if you don't get a cross-up.

 

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Also did some testing on the new Charge QV. Lv0 ~-4 /// Lv1 ~-1 /// Lv2 ~+1 /// Lv3 +5. Using throw as an example, you can do d.5HS>KQV>5K>6P>6HS>XQV>Lv.2 XQV. I'm liking SQV>lv2PQV as a meaty on wakeup. 2S>SCR>d.2K>c.S becomes a true blockstring if timed well. You can also use teleport to create a nice high/low somewhere in there.

 

Tested it against Sols DP, and if you time it correctly, HS+S VV both whiff due Venom's hurt-box receding during the finishing frames of QV.

 

Hope this gives you guys some ideas!

[DaiAndOh]

On the first setup, 3 ball setup is rare but using the new QV combo in the corner (QV, j.KSHSD), 3 ball setups are more viable. In general, teleporting to a ball off screen will have Venom crossup the opponent in the corner.

We can learn the frame advantage from the QV charge using frame data. http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=System_Data_(GGXRD)

As reference:
Level 0 Charge = Level 0 attack and so on. I really hate ASW changed level 1 to level 0 from XX to XRD but anyway.

Level 0 Charge = -4 (we know this from frame data already)
Level 1 Charge = -2 (somewhat improved actually)
Level 2 Charge = +1 (set a level 3 hit ball and plus on block!)
Level 3 Charge = +4 (AC Dubious Curve! Too bad you gotta charge it for that)

(really gotta update that wiki with this)

However note that QV has 8 active frames. So depending on your meaty timing, you'll be getting even more advantage.

So the second string isn't the best string for mixup possibility, but it's pretty safe as you pointed out, and it will inflict a decent amount of chip.

[Sunfish]

Teleporting to a ball off screen will not cause venom to teleport into the corner if the opponent has his back to it. You can try this by setting H ball and then teleporting to it. It seems to only happen when there is another ball already in motion when you teleport. Works with Kbs > Hbs > 5P Kball > teleport as well for some reason.

I'm not sure that Charge QV follows a straight +1 atk level increase per charge (was it in the patch notes or something?). Lv3 is definitely +5, you can test by having the dummy set to block first hit only. 5K will be blocked, but 2S won't be. Not super practical, but it's at least something to take note of.

 

Now that I'm looking at the frame data for QV, something seems off. Unless I'm not calculating it correctly. QV should be -8 using the DL wiki numbers. 38 frames total - with 20st-8act-10rec. Assuming you hit on the first frame of QV, you'd have 7act+10rec vs. the opponents 9 frames of block-stun (lv0). Leaving you at -8, but this definitely isn't the case. QV on IB can be punished by venom 2S(6frame) but not 2P(7frame). Maybe because QV is a projectile, you aren't effected by hitstop? But it would still be incorrect because hitstop is 11frames according to the wiki.

 

I agree though, it's not the best mixup tool. But I think it's an incredibly useful defensive tool that can be used offensively. The string saps about %30 meter if they choose to FD, potentially negating a DA or they choose to eat about an 8th of their health in chip + letting their RISC gauge increase (Due to the balls, even using FD won't effect the string much). It makes DPs whiff, negating their option to RC on block. Ending c.S with SCR leaves you at huge advantage and sets up for Venom's throw mixup. Teleporting after hitting lv2QV with 2S give you a protected high mixup (reverse of Kball oki)

Anyways, hope I don't come off as too defensive, I do appreciate your insight.

[DaiAndOh]

Hmmm yes, odd stuff regarding QV...that's the data from the page and you see yourself it works out....

However, 5K is 7 frames of startup, 2S is 6...did you mean 2K?

Also odd stuff regarding corner teleport...

haha don't worry about being defensive, I added a few good points myself, which you just capitalized on the following posts. I think I would use it mostly against DP characters for that reason, or maybe if I find my opponent is using dead angles immediately rather than looking for safe spots.

Real talk, I'd rather deal with defensive people that make actual good points than people agreeing with anything I say that happens to be wrong -_-

[Sunfish]

Yeah, should have been 2K rather than 5K.

I think the corner teleport is definitely worth exploring. Breaks the game rules so it's going to hit at least once before they catch on.

That's good to know haha. I've been a lurker for awhile, but I'd like to start sharing info I find with you guys. Will probably have a small write-up on Corner HSb>Kb>Sb & Midscreen c.S>SQV>d.J.KSHSD>6HS>Kbs

 

Posting snippets on Twitter as well, so if any of you Venom bros want to follow me, I will follow back.

[koufdell]

hi guys new venom player here .... about that crossup setup involving H Ball out of screen ... i 'm practicing this setup against slayer
cs(3) > PQV>dash jKSHD >6H KQV > Hball set   then dash j K (hit k and P ball) then if i teleport it always crosses up if he's standing ( i saw fino doing it in that mikado fino matches)  

 

i also have this in corner based on the vid

stuff xx PQV > charged S stinger > 2S > S CR > jS(neutral or froward hit the 2nd ball) > Air dash S > HS  for pressure
 

[pacoveli]

just wondering if the midscreen teleport setup in this video is still doable/viable in 1.1

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN5MbNxLu4Q

 

If not, is there a new one in 1.1 that gets me a similar setup?

[DaiAndOh]

Nothing should have changed regarding that.

[Lynxfort]

 I would like updating the first post about any thing new changed in 1.04 and some good notes that the guys here talked about certain formations..

[Lynxfort]

Which formations benefit the most from Trajectory struck ball change of 6H.. After P.K formation striking the P ball with 5P then  K ball with 6H looks nice IMHO.. is there more ??

[DaiAndOh]

Not much tbh. 6HS's primary purpose as it relates to balls is to basically touch the opponent before it gets to balls and then cancel into something else (another summon or teleport most likely).

The main exception is a piece of corner oki I saw in the early days of 1.1, ending with a P Ball into level 2 charge S Stinger, which levels up the spun ball to level 3 (biggest ball), then 6HS to stop them from jumping out and hitting the ball for a combo or massive plus frames.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Went into some deeper analysis of Venom's new corner oki setup, and found some interesting shit.

The setup (as mentioned before):

Stuff xx P set, CR BH, 5P BH, dash 2S (66~3S for shortest possible dash) xx K set, dash jK/S BH into K ball oki style pressure.

This setup, on normal block, is completely airtight. FD is still airtight, but you may need to dash further on the dash jK/S BH to compensate for pushback if you want the clean 50/50. The only point it's vulnerable to blitz is at the dash 2S, which if blitzed still forces them to block the incoming charged ball. Seems 2legit2quit amirite?

Wrong.

I put this up on twitter, and DaiAndOh pointed out that IBing the CR could lead to a jump out. He was right. So I set to work devising a way to beat jump out and ended up with this:

Stuff xx P Set, CR BH, 5K BH, IAD into pressure.

The basic idea is to catch them after IB jump with a faster charged ball, making them sit still and eat more pressure. Still pretty airtight on normal block too, but it's difficult on some short characters like Venom and Millia.

Overall not ideal, but still solid if the opponent knows to IB CR. The only exception is Faust, who can just duck under the charged ball. There's a silver lining though; if he IBs the CR on the other setup he still can't jump out because his hurtbox, while short, is a fucking mile wide so he'll get caught by the 2S. I would assume this is the case for all fatter hurtboxes as well.

[SIne]

yeah i thought people were already doing this, since 5p has less startup but hits the ball slower , use 5k to hit it faster then IAD to keep them on the ground in blockstun, the iad portion is still ofcourse vulnerable to blitz

[HunterSFL]

I haven't really gone into training mode to look into the detail of IBing this string, but I wanted to mention something. I don't think you can just say "Stuff xx P Ball". The specific combo used will determine your ending distance, and I think the distance of the P Ball, as well as how well you time the CR to be meaty will determine where (if at all) the opponent can IB to help themselves. Might want to mess with it a bit more.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Stuff = 2D[2] or a low hitting 6H at a range where attempting to continue a combo with QV will OTG. If QV would whiff, you're too far to get the CR BH to hit meaty.

[HunterSFL]

I understand that you were implying 2D or 6H xx P Ball, but my point is that just saying 6H xx P Ball isn't enough, because there are multiple combos you might use in the corner for various confirms that will end with that same 6H xx P Ball at different distances.  This is easy to see just with the difference in combos for standing/crouching confirms in the corner.  There's a really big range of distances where you can end up and get a meaty S CR after the P Ball.  It's also affected by the opponent's character's wakeup timing.  The best example I've seen of this so far is Sin.  He has the combination of being extremely easy to juggle S CR 5P, and also waking up very very late.  I've actually had instances where I did the setup too tight and the S CR went past him before he even got up, and I was very far away.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Sample combos:

2D distance is self explanitory. Every practical situation where you can get both hits you can do the setup.

For 6H-

2K clS[3] 866 jSHD 6H xx PQV into oki

You can do the setup, but this is inefficient because you can extend the combo further by instead doing SQV 6P 6H at least, and go for different oki.

2K clS[3] 866 jSHD 6H xx SQV, 6P BH 6H xx P set into oki

Way too far. Better off doing something like blitz safe K ball from this position.

2K clS[3] xx HQV 669 jKSHD 6H xx P set

Throw, 5H xx KQV, 5K 6P BH 6H xx P set

Throw, 66 5H xx KQV, clS[2] 6P BH 6H xx PQV

(Crouching, from low airdash K ball scenario)

jSH clS[2]* xx SQV, 5P BH IAD jSHD land 6H xx P set

*on Sin do 5K clS[1]

Also works from TK MS.

All of the above leave you in the sweet spot. There are a plethora of other examples, but this is just to make it clear where you should be. You want a range where attempting to do 6H xx QV will either connect but not allow for a reliable extension afterwards, or OTG to kill the combo.

If the former, you can end in PQV and go for the oki from there. I still sometimes settle for P set into oki for those though. I get extra time to charge and ensure I don'd drop the setup.

If the latter, you have to do P set into oki.

[xxteefxx]

Sigh I barely play the game and I am so behind. Wish I can catch up. Something I noticed not sure if people know, so I decided to share it . U guys can find better uae ofcourse.

Noticed people know bout the p set, s CR into 2K BH. Anyways can be done with bishop runout as well and leads to crazy mixups in corner and pressure midscreen.

In corner this works and is solid for me when done correctly. I don't know o barley touch the game but last I remember I think it is char apecefic.

In corner c.s(3) Sqv, run in j.kshsdust, lands 6hs p ball summon.

S CR, pball hit....if done correctly you will hit 2 balls, making then umable to escape in between with a jump.

Hope it is of any use :S.

Darn it I so want to master this game and its sad lol . Nice posts by the way guys.

[Stoneroth]

just wondering if the midscreen teleport setup in this video is still doable/viable in 1.1

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN5MbNxLu4Q

 

If not, is there a new one in 1.1 that gets me a similar setup?

 

 

Nothing should have changed regarding that.

 

The changes to QV knockback actually seem to affect this setplay quite a bit.

I found spacing/timing the okizeme very difficult. I got it to work but I honestly don't believe it's very viable anymore.

[DaiAndOh]

Really? I still use it and similar setups just fine...what's happening when you try?

[Lynxfort]

After ending combo with KQV.. should i go for 1 K ball set oki or it's better if i placed another ball for a better oki.. and which one is it ?? unless if you suggest to end combo with Another QV ball instead.. then set a K ball

[DaiAndOh]

A QV combo ender should utilize a 2 ball setup almost all the time. If you want to use K Ball set oki after a corner knockdown (nothing wrong with the simpler things!), you should get more damage by using a KQV 6P > BH > 6HS or SQV 5P IAD > j.SHSD |> 6HS ender, and doing a K Set. More damage too.

[pacoveli]

Really? I still use it and similar setups just fine...what's happening when you try?

 

After i hit the KQV and set the P Ball, 5P-ing it was hitting the K Ball due to P Ball resting lower than before, or the P Ball would whiff due to QV not pushing as far back... i just had to insert a pause before summoning the P Ball and it worked fine, no worries. I feel it's still viable in a match. What are some similar setups to this that i might try out?