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Leo Combos/Setup Discussion

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Ive finally looked into this and i do think the close 236 H is faster.

5k,5s,5h xx 236h wont combo unless done from a dash in starter. Also, when doing this fast/close version of 236h, it doesnt seem cancelable into the followup rekka, so it cant knockdown even when combod into unless you use rc.

The best application of this knowledge seems to be to use the crossup against expected crouchblocks (fast 236h doesnt work against standing block since the opponent will start walking backwards and inadvertently not allow the close range 236h


-edit... Actually that doesnt seem like whats happening:

Going on in training mode, i found that when the 236h gets blocked...it ALWAYS gets blocked a second time, in the next chain. Then every chain i do after that the 236h combos... For what seems like 10 times or more, then randomly it wont combo, and the next one never combos but then all the next ones do.

Another hypothesis:

Some sort of flag is being raised...

Ive tried holding 236[H]... doesnt seem to make a difference.
Ive tried doing it with the risc gauge up... No difference.

-edit 2.

The rule of 2 is now gone in training mode. Im literally able to get 5h,236h to combo 10 times in a row (or so) and then i CANT combo it 10 times in a row (236h gets blocked after 5h hits) This doesnt seem random since it almost always happens many times in a row. My timing isnt so inconsistent as to THAT inconsistent.

range doesnt seem to be all that tied into it either since when the combo is working i can do the 5h from pretty far away and the 236h will still combo, yet when the combo isnt working, even if im point blank it wont combo.


We really need to figure this out imho, it may have applications for other move properties.

 

I still have no idea what is causing this phenomenon, but have you tried doing this from other normals? Maybe 2H, or 6H. If the game is indeed using the non rekka version of 236H at random times, then it should be possible to combo into 236H from any special-cancelable with attack level 2(or 1 in frame data if assuming 4 is highest attack level).

It might also be a bug/glitch no one has really identified.

Perhaps it could be a weird interaction with the property that 5H can be transitioned into a stance or parry. If that is true, f. S and or 6H might have the ability to cause this 'glitch' to happen.

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I really dont know. I tried it from S and no dice it doesnt seem to work from S.

So fuck it im looking at other stuff:

Newest thing is that arcsys seems to have really taken their time into balancing leo with regard to hist string theory. I guess most characters are like this such as his 6h and 6k only being chainable from certain moves, but something i just noticed as well, is that he has delays which is no particular discovery, but that his delays differ:

5f.s delay 6h works as a chain. But 5f.s delay 6k isnt delayable nearly as long.

The most obvious reason is so that 5f.s>throw/6k isnt a complete mixup.

But the further ramifications is why this is exactly and what the rule is... Is it that 6k the move itself cant be delayed very long when done from a chain, or is it that 6h has an ability tp be delayed for a very long time from any chain?

After further testing it seems to be that the h moves (5h and 6h) can be delayed more time than normal from far s.

What this seems to mean is:

In the string 5k>5s>5f.s:

We have a natural mixup of canceling into 236h for the running crossup, or delaying the 5h instead to try and counterhit the opponent out retaliation attempts, this of course also hits from the front so it might be a good mixup for the crossup 236h.

Of course all this is tertiary strats, but im just looking to find ways to add some strategic complications into leos game so i can seek to keep opponents confused and myself from getting bored... Im trying to find as much "deep" stuff with leos strategy as possible. I know i can flowchart ksh6h pressure and confirms, but, it seems so simple that im trying to find some more strategic depth in the character, because doing chain into rekka into okizeme all day just becomes mindnumbing after awhile.

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Some thoughts on the phenomenon with the quick 236H:

 

Normally, if you just do 236H when right next to the opponent, Leo does his usual run and even pushes them back a bit before crossing over.  However, if you do point blank c.S 5H XX 236H, it combos really consistently on Sol.  I think this is due to two factors: c.S pushes Leo deeper into the opponent's model and 5H has its natural pullback.  Both of these factors seem to cause the 236H to come out basically already crossed up, so the lengthier run part is skipped entirely.

 

c.S XX 236H alone does not seem to be enough to trigger it, nor does 5H XX 236H, and even dashing into either one of them alone doesn't make it work on Sol, so I think that lends support to the idea outlined above.  Further evidence lies in the fact that dash into point blank 2K c.S 5H XX 236H combos on Sol but dash into a 2K that isn't point blank no longer works since the distance does not allow Leo to get in deep enough for the 236H to instantly cross up.

 

Note that none of the options (point blank c.S 5H, or dash 2K/5K c.S 5H) work on Sol while he's crouching.  This is probably because Sol's reeling animation while crouching is different from his standing reeling animation and doesn't allow Leo to get deep enough inside his model for the instant crossover 236H to trigger.  

 

As for that video just posted above of Leo on Leo violence, I don't really have a good idea on why that works.  The funny thing there is that 5H XX 236H doesn't seem to work at any range normally unless you dash into the 5H, but after landing the instant crossover 236H and then stance canceling, 5H XX 236H suddenly works not only at that range but also if you walk in a bit first.  It doesn't make sense to me to think that the opponent's hitbox is being altered, so the only thing I can think of that would be possible is that Leo's own hitbox is altered in some way when you cancel out of BT stance.

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You probably are onto something, kinda makes sense with what Dime_x has been saying about it being seemingly random, yet having a pattern. Something is definitely triggering/flagged, and it could be the different hitboxes in BT and normal stance being the cause. I suppose it is a glitch? I wonder if it affects anything else outside of this situation.

Really cool stuff in that vid shtkn posted.

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speaking of setup videos, theBiter made one recently, there's some interesting stuff in here. Most of it is cranking up the risc gauge and then going all out

http://youtu.be/zetXquDx_d4

 

There are some extremely cool combos in here utilizing RISC gauge (that's the half circle pink thing right?) buildup to allow multiple moves to counterhit in the combo.  I liked it so much I transcribed it, so maybe folks can play around with the stuff and find other combos or optimizations using these ideas:

 

[high RISC Guard Crush corner combo] BT 214H RC dash 2H, 6[H], BT 214S, 6[H], BT S XX 632146S, 6[H], BT S XX 214S 
 
[CH] BT 214S, dash 236H RC, dash 6[H], BT S XX 214S, 2P c.S XX 632146H
 
BT 214S RC dash 6H XX 236H, j.P K S(2) jc dj.H XX j.236H
 
[blocked stuff into CH 236H, opp burst] BT D, BT 214H, microdash 6[H], BT S XX 214S RC 6[H], BT S XX 632146S
 
[high RISC GC combo] BT 214H RC dash 5[H], BT K S H, BT S H, BT 632146, 6H, 2H XX [2]8H
 
[high RISC] BT 214H YRC counterhit 2H, j.236H RC 5D8 into dust ender
 
[high RISC] counterhit 236H, BT S XX 214H, microdash 2H, 6[H] (crosses over Venom), BT S XX 632146S
 
[high RISC] counterhit 236H, BT S XX 214S RC dash into IAD crossover, 2H, 6[H], BT S XX 632146S
 
[corner] throw into BT K OTG reset, BT H, BT S H, BT S XX 632146S, 6[H], BT S XX 214S, 2P XX [2]8H
 
[high RISC GC burst bait] BT 214H RC dash 5H~P (blocks burst), 6[H], BT S XX 214S, 2H, 6[H], BT S XX 632146S (Ky dizzy), 6[H], BT S XX 214S

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All my testing has been in leo v leo training mode... Should have said that earlier.

Also:

The primary difference between fast and slow 236h is that the slow one pushes the opponent for the first few frames of startup, only after that does the move crossup.

This can be seen by doing 236h point blank. And then doing it from midrange, and then doing it from max range, so:

The difference between the fast and and slow version is that the fast version SKIPS the initial pushback.

I was thinking that holding the button or the timing/speed of the cancel might have something to do with it, but the above recording seems to prove that false.

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More about the 236H crossover:

 

On Leo, c.S 5H XX 236H combos easy every time.  However, on counterhit, it never combos unless you do a deep dash in before the c.S.  I think this supports my idea of the instant crossover being a product of overlapping hitboxes during the reeling animation, since the counterhit c.S 5H string seems to push the opponent Leo just a tiny bit further away than normal.

 

It should also be noted that the above video of Leo looping 5H XX 236H on himself and it comboing every time also doesn't hold up on counterhit, even though the full version of 236H combos anyway from the 5H.

 

Edit: I guess if High RISC counterhit combos become an integral part of Leo's gameplan, we're going to have to start marking down what the minimum RISC necessary for various combos to work is.  For instance, here's one I just did on Leo combining a couple concepts from that MEIJIN video:

 

[78% RISC minimum, corner carry required] counterhit 236H, BT S XX 214S, dash 236H RC dash 6[H], BT S XX 214S, 2P XX [2]8H (292ish damage)

 

Another example, again on Leo:

[64% RISC minimum] counterhit 236H, BT S XX 214H, 5K c.S jc j.K jc dj.K H XX j.236H (292 damage)

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someone who is going to do some frequent minor maintenance to it should make a video thread. we are long overdue.

 

naturally I would have just done it myself, but I probably will not keep up with it.

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Here's a sort of extension of my post with some of the [2]8H(2) RC whiff j.D combos.  Besides comboing into [2]8H off of a chain into 5H,, you can also combo into it off a close range BT S.  This is easier than comboing into it off 5H but also more restricted because BT S pushes away instead of the vacuum effect of 5H, but there are still potential uses here.  I compared them to similar options off BT 214S RC, with the damage numbers being on Sol as usual:

 

[CH] 2H XX whiff 236H, BT S XX [2]8H(2) RC whiff j.D, dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K H XX j.236H [232]

[CH] 2H XX whiff 236H, BT S XX 214S RC dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K jc dj.K H XX j.236H [218]
Note: The BT S has to connect about as low as possible for the two early hits of [2]8H to connect, otherwise you miss a hit and lose some damage.
 
[CH] 5[H], BT S XX 214S RC dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K jc dj.K H XX j.236H [218]
[CH] 5[H], BT S X [2]8H(2) RC dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K jc dj.K H XX j.236H [235]
 
 
Secondly, I re-examined the combos starting with counterhit starters into the 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC starter with both optimal damage enders and a far easier variant.  Here are those numbers:
 
[CH] 6K, 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC, dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K H XX j.236H [226]
[CH] 6K, 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC, walk forward 5K c.S jc j.K j.S(1) jc dj.K H XX j.236H [216]
 
[CH] 5H/6H, 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC dash 6H, dash 5K c.S jc j.K XX j.236H [228/234]
[CH] 5H/6H, 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC walk forward 5K c.S jc j.K dj j.K H XX j.236H [225/231]
 
Basically, if you land counterhit 5H or 6H, you can give up 3 damage and some corner carry in exchange for a much easier and more consistent combo ender.  For the counterhit 6K, it's probably still worth having the 6H in the middle, as the following dash 5K c.S are a lot easier to consistently connect after it in this case anyway.
 
 
Finally, I was playing with some conversions off [4]6H YRC when I found something weird.  I was getting drastically different damages if I did this combo at training mode start compared to if I did it after Rekkas.  I cut the Rekkas out of the equation and still found this:
 
From training mode start, [4]6H YRC 2D, j.K j.S(1) jc dj.K H XX j.236H [111]
From training start, step back a step, then [4]6H YRC dash 2D, j.K j.S(1) jc dj.K H XX j.236H [144]
 
In both cases RISC is at 0, Sol is at max health, and the 2D definitely connects first, yet the same combo differs by 33 points of damage.  I tested whether [4]6H does more damage as it travels further, but it was a consistent 54 damage standalone no matter what the range was.  I also tested whether 2D and dash 2D do different damage but they don't.  However, if you do the first combo with a deep enough dash 2D, you do get the damage of the second.  I'm really at a loss for how to explain this difference in damage, but maybe there's something about [4]6H's juggle properties that I'm not aware of here.

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Slowdown of rc's causes proration, the second is likely hitting after the slowdown because of the dash.

You know, I actually knew about that from other characters I've messed with (Axl, May), but it never occurred to me that it was kicking in off the YRC slowdown at the beginning of the combo.  A friend of mine told me the same thing and I was coming to edit my previous post when I saw yours just now.

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Sorry if this is already known.. but i found a character-specific midscreen rrc route:

 

c.S > 5HS > rekka123 > RRC > Run into 6HS > 236HS > 5K > c.S > hj j.S (1) > j.HS > j.236HS

 

Did 219 on Axl and i believe 214 on Ky. So far it doesn't work on Sol and Slayer.

 

EDIT: Doesn't work on:  Zato-1, Faust, Millia, Elphelt, I-No, Ram, 

 

          Works on: Sin, May, Potempkin, Chipp, Bedman, and as previously stated, Ky and Axl

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someone who is going to do some frequent minor maintenance to it should make a video thread. we are long overdue.

 

naturally I would have just done it myself, but I probably will not keep up with it.

 I'd be wiling to do that also but I'm wondering what Leo videos do we have? I know there's a good amount of mini combo videos and some match footage but I don't know if we have enough to warrant a whole thread yet.

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How are you guys going about fighting the Zato matchup

I know the objective is to go in and go nuts, but Leo's neutral is so limited it's hard to do sometimes

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YO, so I was just playing against a ky online and I got something very very strange for the first time ever...then I went for it again and it happened again the very next time...then I went for it again and it didn't happen a third time lol

 

I had him in the corner and did basic blockstring into crossup rekka; 5k, 5s, 5h, 236h, so that the 5h pulls him out of the corner for the cross up, ya know? WELL after the crossup, I do 5k and leo lunges forward with his knee...? im thinking I must have gotten hit out of BT and wasn't paying attention or...something. but I do it again in the other corner and again, after empty cross up rekka 236h hits...he is NOT in back turned stance and when I mash 5k he lunges forward at him with his knee. I try it a third time and he is in BT and does his stand low.

 

I have 115 ranked matches and 767 player matches (exact numbers cause im looking at my profile right now cause i was hoping the game automatically recorded the match, but it didn't). and about 40-50 hours worth of offline matches at local arcade gatherings here in Chicago on Mondays and out of all that time I have NEVER seen this happen once...then it happens twice in a row. has anyone ever gotten this before?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKq53uIR4Q

Found this neat combo movie showcasing lots of silly things and RISC combos.

Thoughts?

 

It was an interesting watch. There are some noteworthy things to take from that video, much notably the midscreen rekkas > YRC > 236H which would be very useful.

 

 I'd be wiling to do that also but I'm wondering what Leo videos do we have? I know there's a good amount of mini combo videos and some match footage but I don't know if we have enough to warrant a whole thread yet.

 

It's just so people don't go digging through this thread (or the other) to find what they want. I think we have quite a few footage to work with, plus there will be more videos to come, so it's cool to start a video thread now (plus there's quite a bit of clutter here too). I'd would also be willing to maintain the video thread, but you beat me to it aha. Plus I need to give myself a little more time with the game.

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Here's a simplification for confirms into [2]8H(2) RC that I hadn't considered:

 

... 5K c.S 5H XX [2]8H(2) RC land, walk forward 6P c.S jc j.K jc dj.K H XX 236H

 

This is similar to the other simplified combo I posted for the flash kick RC route but is better damage and mostly does the timing for you.  The more restrictive the starter was with the mid-combo 6H version, the less damage you give up with this version.  Off CH 5H and CH 6H, this route basically ties the original route in damage because the original route could only reliably get j.K XX j.236H at the end.  It also looks sillier than doing the j.D whiff into a walk/dash since Leo just sorta flies in the air next to the opponent with his arms up like he's having a good time.

 

Also, I played with something I saw in that most recent neta combo video that was posted, which was the corner 5D6, c.S 5H XX [4]6H combo starter, but it wasn't coming anywhere close to the damage off already known corner dust combos.  It's too bad because it was pretty neat to combo into it like that.

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It's just so people don't go digging through this thread (or the other) to find what they want. I think we have quite a few footage to work with, plus there will be more videos to come, so it's cool to start a video thread now (plus there's quite a bit of clutter here too). I'd would also be willing to maintain the video thread, but you beat me to it aha. Plus I need to give myself a little more time with the game.

 Video thread is up let me know if there are any match videos you guys want to see only ones I know of are footage from Zidane at TSB and some of the stuff I captured from min's streams.

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i don't know if this has been posted but i found a combo with a safe jump after on sol : 

  • c.S HS 2[8]HS RC jD(whiff) 6HS 236 HS BT S 214 S (206)

    • setup  : 66 IAD jK safe jump (on sol)

 

i tested if sol do a reversal DP S or HS you can block easly

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What combo do you use when you counter somebody just out of the corner and they splat WAAAAY the hell up there?



Also any tips on timing 6H from RC (on grab or whatever) so it doesn't prorate? My shitty technical ability right now makes it so it would be more beneficial to me (damage wise) to just go for cS jump-combo over 6H since a non-prorated cS from grab RC does more damage than the prorated 6H combo.

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