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[P4AU] Shadow Labrys 2.0 Gameplay Discussion

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This thread is for all disussion relating to a girl and her Minotaur in 2.0. Please remember to stay on topic and follow the site rules.

 

Patch translations can be found collapsed below. As information and footage become increasingly available now that 2.0 is live, I'll continue to update this post to note phantom changes, new combo routes, etc. 

Phantom & Other Changes
  • 2B JUMP-CANCELLABLE ON BLOCK. Overall number of jump-cancels has now doubled.
  • Average damage appears to have increased. Max damage (all resources, shiny/BananaKen combos) is lower, however.
  • Increased untechable time on j.2B: old combo routes unaffected (5AAA > hop-cancel > j.2B still possible midscreen); new combo routes possible as well.
  • Challenge Authority SB > Brutal Impact A still links (reversion from loketest).
  • CH DP > meaty 2C now possible; improved start-up on 2C means it will reliably hit meaty.
  • CH DP > Massive Slaughter set-ups possible but not confirmed.
  • 5C and 2C proration changed (numbers currently unknown); combos that are presently yellow-beats are now valid. Possibilities: 2C's changes mean CH DP>dash 2A+B>2C should now hit without needing to connect the DP at max range; CH DP>dash 2A+B>2C hit>j.214A+B>oki one suggested route.



Corrections
Entering blockstun does not immediately cancel 2C; rather, 2C will be interrupted when Shadow Labrys is in a blockstring while 2C is surfacing (not diving down).


Damage Adjustments
Minimum damage changed (gamewide change):
  • C Punch: 720->720
  • D Punch: 780->780
  • SB Punch: 900->780
  • A Brutal: 900->780
  • B Brutal: 1350->1050
  • SB Brutal: 1800->1100
  • Titanomachia Finish: 1020->900



Collapsed: Patch notes.:
Shadow Labrys Normals

5AAA: Gatlings into sweep
5B: Fatal Counter removed.
2B: Fatal Counter removed.
j.BB:
  • Untechable time increased.
  • No additional untechable time off wallbounce.

j.2B:

  • Can now be executed with diagonal inputs (j.1/3B).
  • Untechable time increased.
  • No additional untechable time off wallbounce.



Asterius Normals

"Bull-cancelling": Attacks can only be cancelled on hit or block; cannot cancel on whiff.
5C, 2C, and 214C/D: Fatal Counter added.
2C:
  • Activation sped up.
  • If you start blocking (i.e., enter blockstun) before Asterius finishes going underground, attack doesn't activate. (Read: no more mashing 2C on block any longer.) See above: 2C will be interrupted if Shadow Labrys is in a blockstring as Asterius surfaces, not while he's diving down.
  • Increased lower portion of the attack hitbox.

5C:

  • Activation sped up.
  • Untechable time increased.
  • Hit property changed, no longer causes ground slide. Now causes large knockback. Wallbounces in the corner.



Universal Mechanics

All Out Attack:
  • Becomes invincible sooner.
  • Recovery increased.
  • In counter state for less time.

ed.: She still has armor frames on her AoA in 1.1, despite the mook saying otherwise; I didn't calculate the exact frames, so take "sooner" as you will.



Shadow Labrys Specials & Supers

Chain Knuckle (all versions):
  • Activation sped up.
  • Recovery decreased.
  • B and SB version untechable time increased.

B Chain Knuckle: No additional untechable time off wallbounce.
SB Chain Knuckle: Larger rebound from wallbounce.


Guillotine Axe (all versions):

  • Untechable time increased.
  • No additional untechable time off groundbounce.

SB Guillotine Axe:

  • Decreased blowback on hit, floats higher off groundbounce.
  • Can now be ground teched.

Titanomachia: SP gain decreased while active.



Asterius Specials

Buffalo Hammer (all versions):
  • Activation sped up.
  • Advances further forward.
  • Can withstand a greater amount of damage while active.
  • Ground-techable.
  • Adjusted blowback on SB version. 2nd attack easier to land.

Buffalo Hammer quake:

  • Floats on hit.
  • Untechable time increased.
  • No longer hits Personas.
  • No longer hits if the opponent is behind Asterius.
  • No longer KO's opponents.

Public Execution (all versions)

  • Easier to catch opponents behind. (Hitbox adjusted.)



Asterius Damage

When Asterius is taking damage, can no longer perform actions*
Unclear whether this is a glitch fix or if it means something else entirely.


Notes
2C IS INCREDIBLY FAST.
Edit: includes translations from Xie's doc; Guillotine, Buffalo Hammer, and "Asterius Damage" adjusted accordingly.

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Overall she looks quite good!

 

5AAA>Sweep is great. It gives you the option to "chicken out" of your auto-combo when it gets blocked, and it also gives S.Lab more blockstrings to help set up Asterius normals/specials.

 

j.2B/j.BB untechable time buff might mean she can get stuff like [4]6C>j.A>j.2B>j.B>j.A>j.214A midscreen consistently without fiddly spacing issues affecting whether you get the wallbounce or not.

 

2C is incredibly fast.

 

5C starting up faster is a great buff, specially when you have full control of when to release it. Losing the sliding knockdown is a good trade-off.

 

A Knuckle is really fast and recovers fast, 2A+B>236A being a natural combo on top of being safer on block is a big deal.

 

SB Knuckle seems easier to follow up with. Overall it seems all versions are more practical to use now.

 

More untech time on Guillotine is great, SB version sounds like it was changed to allow easier mid-screen confirms.

 

Titanomachia SP gain nerf was a long time coming, meter cooldown just doesn't work for this type of move, I figured something would be done eventually.

 

Buffalo Hammer quake floating on hit sounds amazing; she could easily set this up off a 5C ender and jump over people in relative safety while being able to combo off of it. The current quake is more of an annoyance because of how easy it is for the opponent to tech out. It's useful for you to reset your pressure but the quake itself doesn't lead into any damage or setup.

 

Public execution is an amazing move for the wrong reason: it provides guaranteed untechable time to set up brutal impact. Despite the terrible scaling, it hits quite hard as the first move if you can land it, it's just hard to do so even with the correct reads so it'll be interesting to see how much the hitbox buff changes things.

 

Stuff like whiff cancelling bull normals is gone, but she also shouldn't need it now.

 

2C is incredibly fast.

 

 

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To be honest, I'm not liking these changes at all.

 

5AAA to sweep is useless. You've already made a mistake if you're even attempting the third hit of the autocombo on block and from that point on, there isn't really anything you can do to save yourself from someone punishing you with a dp (except perhaps OMCing), unless cancelling to sweep is a true blockstring (I doubt it).

 

5B and 2B fatal counter being removed was completely unneccessary...an unbelievably bad nerf.

 

The jBB changes are nerfs I believe...it is going to shorten her combos in the corner and likely make the 5AAA, hop into j2B combo not work anymore.

 

Asterius not being able to cancel on whiff is another major nerf...why'd they do this?

 

Adding fatal counter to 5C, 2C and 214C/D seems unnecessary...it is harder to land counterhits with these moves and you could already do some good damage from regular counterhits before this patch.

 

2C speed buff looks good but it can't be used for what a lot of us were expecting it to be used for - while blocking.

 

5C not being a knockdown might give her some new combos midscreen but it takes away her oki in the corner...I'm not sure what she can do now for good oki (like setting up lasers and stuff) aside from using meter for EX guillotine.

 

Chain knuckle buffs look good, that move really needs more usability.

 

EX Guillotine nerf was unwarranted...

 

Honestly I feel like they took everything that made her interesting and removed it...I'm disappointed.

 

That said, I'm hoping I'm wrong and someone can find some new interesting tech that makes her worth playing (like Bananaken.....)

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To be honest, I'm not liking these changes at all.

 

5AAA to sweep is useless. You've already made a mistake if you're even attempting the third hit of the autocombo on block and from that point on, there isn't really anything you can do to save yourself from someone punishing you with a dp (except perhaps OMCing), unless cancelling to sweep is a true blockstring (I doubt it).

 

5AAA>Sweep will 100% be a blockstring, it's a level 5 move which applies 18f of blockstun, and sweep has 15f of startup. This change seems to be more of a system-wide change, but it's nice to have, specially in cojunction with 236A. Sweep>236A might also be a blockstring depending on how much the startup has been improved (if it's 2f faster it only has a IB gap). 

 

 

 

5B and 2B fatal counter being removed was completely unneccessary...an unbelievably bad nerf.

It's really not that bad IMO. It's too early to say, but she should be fine as long as she can link CH 5B>2B and CH 2B>j.2B. She will definitely lose a significant chunk of damage without FC 2B/5B though.

 

 

 

The jBB changes are nerfs I believe...it is going to shorten her combos in the corner and likely make the 5AAA, hop into j2B combo not work anymore.

Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong but they're just trying to say the added untechable time won't "carry over" to the wallbounce, hence "no additional untechable time off wallbounce". It shouldn't affect stuff like 5AAA>Hop>j.2B, and hopefully things like 2A>5B+C>Sweep>Hop>j.2B are easier to time.

 

 

Asterius not being able to cancel on whiff is another major nerf...why'd they do this?

Because you could do dumb things like whiff a 2C into an SB move, basically punishing the opponent for dodging an Asterius move. It's a great tool but it was also really cheesy.

 

 

 

Adding fatal counter to 5C, 2C and 214C/D seems unnecessary...it is harder to land counterhits with these moves and you could already do some good damage from regular counterhits before this patch.

Normally it's not that big of a change, but they probably improved the P2 on 2C and 5C (or other moves) from the looks of it.. the longer combos in the demo just aren't possible if you try to mimic them in P4U2. Even if it's harder to land the FC's with them it should be a significant difference in the damage since P2+SMP seems to have less of an impact.

 

 

2C speed buff looks good but it can't be used for what a lot of us were expecting it to be used for - while blocking.

Keep in mind that with 2C being faster they'll have less time to move out of 2C's way, and less time to rush you down and make you start blocking. The startup improvement will also make it so you can DP more often to stop the opponent's advance, something you did with the old 2C anyway but had less chances to do so.

 

 

 

5C not being a knockdown might give her some new combos midscreen but it takes away her oki in the corner...I'm not sure what she can do now for good oki (like setting up lasers and stuff) aside from using meter for EX guillotine.

5C>236D ender was honestly braindead.. easy meaty laser into easy safe jump into another jump mixup.. it was going to be removed one way or another. They didn't show how much time you have to work with when 5C connects in the corner, but it'll be interesting to see if 5C pulling you away from the corner can be used to your advantage for corner crossups.

 

5C starting up faster is always good, it'll open up more chances to cover your unsafe moves with it.

 

 

 

EX Guillotine nerf was unwarranted...

 

Honestly I feel like they took everything that made her interesting and removed it...I'm disappointed.

 

That said, I'm hoping I'm wrong and someone can find some new interesting tech that makes her worth playing (like Bananaken.....)

It just seems like a trade-off to me? Floating them high on hit with less blowback should make it easier to follow-up midscreen, specially if it's like Labrys's new SB Guillotine.

 

I think faster startup on Asterius moves and her improved chain knuckle will make S.Lab's gameplay a little more dynamic.. you'll see more of S.Lab covering Asterius and vice-versa; right now it's too easy to rely on whiff cancels to get your pressure started which is fun but can also be quite passive, specially considering how easy it is to go into SB moves in those cases. I'm almost certain she will still have nasty setplay, but we'll just have to wait to see how much she can do meterless, and god knows how long it'll be until it's out on consoles.. :(

 

Sorry for the wall of text..

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I'm a tad bit sad about the 5C nerf lol but I'm not complaining about what we got in return. FC 5B/2B being gone, well, I'll have to see what I can do with CH5B/2B (Fatal counter anti air is kinda nutso anyways). 2C is really darn scary now. Very very happy about the chain knuckle buff. Titanomachia SP gain (as it was) and whiff canceling asterius moves are things she shouldn't have had anyways, so not really going to miss them. All around I like how things look. I'll have to redo my evernote later, but happy with the changes!

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5AAA>Sweep is great. It gives you the option to "chicken out" of your auto-combo when it gets blocked, and it also gives S.Lab more blockstrings to help set up Asterius normals/specials.

Agreed. On hit, going into sweep should give a stable knockdown midscreen + set-up and open up routes other than 5AAA > hop-cancel j.2B > etc. (Though the 5AAA > mjc.j2B route was dropping during the loketest -- looking at the final changes, the optimal route should still be intact, but options are good.) 5AAA > 2AB > Knuckle A > OH HEY WE CAN COMBO THAT NOW. Losing the 5B FC hurts but it looks like they buffed Shab's ground game quite a bit -- we can do more than variations on 2A > 5B > 2AB and with 2AB going into Knuckle we can even extend.

A Knuckle is really fast and recovers fast, 2A+B>236A being a natural combo on top of being safer on block is a big deal.

SB Knuckle seems easier to follow up with. Overall it seems all versions are more practical to use now.

I'm all in favour of this until I find out that Knuckle no longer takes Bursts (into a punish TV Punch) because that was dumb but fun to do. I'm curious what combo routes open off the corner bounce; I experimented with trying to find corner-only knuckle combos but left frustrated. B and SB can always be picked up with DP at a minimum (for bounce > bounce shenanigans) but 5C and 2C changes look interesting. Proration shouldn't be too much of an issue (looking at the current numbers).

5C starting up faster is a great buff, specially when you have full control of when to release it. Losing the sliding knockdown is a good trade-off.

Even without FC, in the corner, 5C > 2B > air combo is still possible. And as you mentioned, 5C > Titano activate may yield some strong cross-ups and evil Titano sequences. (Though given the insane speed on 2C and 5C, are they still going to be faster than normal during Titano? Do we really need Instant Hammer Uppercut?)

Stuff like whiff cancelling bull normals is gone, but she also shouldn't need it now.

My first reaction was "NO DON'T TAKE MAH MINOTAUR," if only because I really mashed 2C (to displace Asterius, so whiff was fine) > stuff. Which, admittedly, is broken and dumb. I've had matches where I've played passive (and in some cases, quite literally parked myself across the screen) while throwing the bull around because, hey, you dodged 2C? That's fine, now watch out for the grab munching you from behind ... oops. (2C on hit at least led to tech traps; I just went ham with displacement and/or sniping people). And if someone entered my space? DP or 5B. It was "fun," but you're right: she shouldn't need this kind of (literal) bullshit now.

In Arena, Asterius's recovery time and lack of cancels meant some of our moves were stupidly good (cough, lasers, cough, Terra's Eruption), but I felt like Shab was restricted due to how much we committed whenever we used Asterius and the speed on our normals; our vortex was absolutely nutty but we lost it in Ultimax precisely because we didn't need it with bull-cancels and better frame data giving us more chances to get in the game. In Ultimax, six cards + cancels + certain nerfs gave us a reason to actually throw out Asterius (nevermind j.214A+C), but that also, I feel, made Shab a less interesting, more linear character. Asterius normal whiffed? Just go into a special! (And considering Asterius's damage....) Meanwhile, our combo routes felt ... lacking. It was either midscreen 5AAA > hopcancel j.2B > etc., 2A > 5B > 2AB, or turning every ground confirm into an air combo ending in j.214A+C or j.214AB ([4]6C) when we didn't have a FC. We definitely have more combo options vs. Arena (5AA>5B on hit because why not, j.A>j.B being a natural combo, etc.), but I would gladly sacrifice some of the free/"easy" damage for better pressure options, blockstrings, and a better overall ground game. (Losing 5C groundslide is the same kind of trade; we still get a 2B pickup in the corner anyway.)

And if that is what we're getting, losing FC on 5B and 2B suddenly makes more sense. The 2B FC was a little too good even "now" in 1.1, thanks to the fact that we can reactively anti-air most jumps; my only qualms with losing FC on 5B (beside combo paths) is the fact that, unless we can hit in Fatal Recovery frames, Shadow Labrys herself has no way to Fatal Counter -- only Asterius can Fatal. I suspect part of this is to increase "smart" bull usage vs. mindless canceling (which would also explain 2C's speed buff turning bull-kun into some kind of homicidal roadrunner). And I actually like giving Asterius FC (feels more even, less Shab using Asterius for cover and random damage vs. a dynamic team with Shab more dominant), but I'd trade the Buffalo Hammer FC for 5B FC right now, just for stability. I do think Shadow Lab herself should be a threat, though, again, 5AAA>2AB and 2AB>236A may mean that ... it's a nerf we just have to take in exchange.

j.2B/j.BB untechable time buff might mean she can get stuff like [4]6C>j.A>j.2B>j.B>j.A>j.214A midscreen consistently without fiddly spacing issues affecting whether you get the wallbounce or not.

Checking how j.BB/j.2B were translated for Labrys: it seems like j.BB and j.2B have a flat increase in untech time but the wallbounce no longer adds any. So for Massive Slaughter combos and 5AAA > hop cancel j.2B -- I know we heard reports that the latter wasn't working at the loke (though God knows what else was going on there), but we likely need footage. In the corner, it shouldn't be an issue, as the untech time should be enough for things like j.2B > jc.BB; I'm not sure whether we can (easily?) still do dashing pick-ups off j.2B. It may be impossible or just stricter -- since we don't know what was up at the loke, we just have to wait for footage.

Normally it's not that big of a change, but they probably improved the P2 on 2C and 5C (or other moves) from the looks of it.. the longer combos in the demo just aren't possible if you try to mimic them in P4U2. Even if it's harder to land the FC's with them it should be a significant difference in the damage since P2+SMP seems to have less of an impact

Yeah, 2C's proration looks ... um ... massively slaughtered. The P2 right now is so high that there's just no combo; from the video, I'm guessing they've radically altered the speed and proration on 2C, 5C, and 214x to make them viable combo starters (god help opponents on Fatal), as speed + Fatal + proration down means we may get some sick FC routes. Right now, CH or even FC 2C doesn't reliably go into much without resources (and depending on spacing); I usually went for a tech trap if I couldn't confirm a Guillotine. Which was fine, I mean, who doesn't enjoy downbacking and getting 2.2/2.4k because the opponent was "zoning" or not paying attention, but if we can confirm FC 2C, that makes the move much more frightening for opponents. Most know how to avoid 2C and that it's a way for Shab to start her offence, but at further ranges, it's not a threat unless someone committed to something slow enough. Speed increase + FC is also major when we're fighting out of the corner (or have the opponent in the corner), as 2C cross-ups should become even more unreactable.

tl;dr I wasn't sure how I felt about what we heard from the loke and after reading the patch notes the first time, but after thinking about it... aside from the "NO I DONT WANT TO LEARN NEW THINGS" pushback that happens every balance patch, for every fighter, I think there's more to celebrate than fear. Sometimes, I think ASW has no clue what to do with Shab and/or looks at what BananaKun creates and screams "make it stop." Right now... looking back to Arena, I think this is likely closer to what Ultimax Shab should have been from the start. Less "cheese" (in Arena, CH DP > 5AAAA because lol; now: bull cancels on whiff), more 'team effort' with Asterius, improved combo routes, new cancels on Asterius to buff utility and give us the ability to actually land a knockdown into oki, and, hey, have Chain Knuckle. Then we all quickly learned Chain Knuckle is shit and that bull-cancels on whiff are really, really good; 2B FC is amazing but for 2B's improved speed (nevermind 2B's size...), I actually think that needed to go (5B... I'm still more iffy on); and Shab's damage is nuts. It's still going to be nuts unless there's a phantom change to the minimum damage on Brutal Impact, as Public Execution is still guaranteeing 1350/1800 for Brutal B/SB, which is insane. But our chances at landing actual mix-up and nasty cross-ups seems up, we have a new blockstring, and, as far as I can tell, we have even more ways to get in the game.

Actually, that was still tl;dr. My actual thoughts: 2C IS INCREDIBLY FUCKING FAST.

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Was there ever anymore info on Asterius's increased durability?

 

...Not getting doggy rocketed to death?

Patch confirmed increased endurance on certain moves but didn't specify the value, as far as I know. I asked the translator and he said it was left vague because ... surprises are fun?

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I'm almost certain there will be some phantom nerfs/buffs that slipped by or were just omitted, ArcSys seems to do that without fail. :x

 

If wallbounce itself actually got changed so that it doesn't add untechable time then that changes things. The issue is it'd be entirely up to how much untechable time was added. For example, 5AAA>Hop>j.2B wallbounces mid-screen right before you run out of untech time; if you added like 15-20 frames of untechable time you could follow it up as normal assuming wallbounce doesn't add any. Personally, the only reason I would add untechable time is to make some low proration j.2B uses easier: corner j.BB/j.2B obviously needs no help, and in fact the change might be addressing how its abused to get more untechable time at high proration. However, 5AAA>Hop>j.2B is still pretty early in a combo (you can even combo into Titanomachia even though it's hard), so added untechable time might just be helping these midscreen routes while slightly nerfing corner ones. I could be wrong of course, but it's the only way that this change makes sense to me; if it didn't help midscreen routes at all then adding untechable time wouldn't provide any tangible benefit.

 

I wouldn't put too much weight on loketest reports unless it's from a reputable source/player. I remember early BBCP2 Kokonoe reports complaining about some routes not working anymore, but they still worked though they became a little harder D;

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I'm almost certain there will be some phantom nerfs/buffs that slipped by or were just omitted, ArcSys seems to do that without fail. :x

We'll need actual 2.0 footage and combo routes before we can say, yeah. And I figure 2.1 is guaranteed... remember when Issen and Heavenly Spear were busted?

 

If wallbounce itself actually got changed so that it doesn't add untechable time then that changes things. The issue is it'd be entirely up to how much untechable time was added. For example, 5AAA>Hop>j.2B wallbounces mid-screen right before you run out of untech time; if you added like 15-20 frames of untechable time you could follow it up as normal assuming wallbounce doesn't add any. Personally, the only reason I would add untechable time is to make some low proration j.2B uses easier: corner j.BB/j.2B obviously needs no help, and in fact the change might be addressing how its abused to get more untechable time at high proration. However, 5AAA>Hop>j.2B is still pretty early in a combo (you can even combo into Titanomachia even though it's hard), so added untechable time might just be helping these midscreen routes while slightly nerfing corner ones. I could be wrong of course, but it's the only way that this change makes sense to me; if it didn't help midscreen routes at all then adding untechable time wouldn't provide any tangible benefit.

That makes the most sense, but this being ASW, what's love sense got to do with it. (I'm kidding.) Right now, j.2B/j.BB are Level 4 attacks; if untech time is increasing, it could be a direct change to j.2B/j.BB itself -- maybe the bounce untech "bonus" is being moved to the actual attack, and therefore it applies as soon the attack hits, increasing untech on j.2B/j.BB but removing the additional untech from the bounce? Just spitballing... though, wouldn't that fit your thoughts on adding ~15f untech? The alternative is j.2B/j.BB gaining an attack level (in which case, untech time = ???), but there was no mention of a change in attack level, so I'm doubting this. BananaKen, I assume you have it right (I'm taking shots in the dark and just trying to find coherence because... logic puzzles are fun?), but we'll have to see.

To address the 5AAA>hop>j.2B loketest stuff: what we initially heard was that it was dropping, and the consensus was that j.2B seemed to have increased recovery, but if we look at the patch... assuming that the wallbounce untech removal was implemented to stop extensions and resets as well as comboable corner carry on demand regardless of proration (perhaps they saw your throw and FC combo vids, BananaKen?), then as long as there's enough untech on j.2B itself, 5AAA>hop>j.2B should be fine. If j.2B's untech time wasn't buffed (at all or properly) but the wallbounce no longer added untech at the loke, that might explain why players felt j.2B's recovery shot up at the loke. It's not all that relevant (remember when the initial Ultimax loketests had Yosuke's glide on new buttons and everyone thought it was gone -- a chilling vision of things to come), since we know other issues from the loke aren't relevant (2C is no longer the end of your combo and immediately techable, for example, as was reported at the loke), but ... I enjoy banging my head against walls, I guess. Just trying to see if there's any clues in what ASW's shown of their hand, connexions, etc., but it'll be pointless in a few days.

Hopefully, the change to untech just means timing adjustments and does stabilise certain routes while preventing rampant bounce abuse.

 

Most of what was reported at the loke has been clarified, but there are a few wildcards left, so I'll put them here in case they wind up phantom changes. (Once we have 2.0 footage, I'll update the top post with news on intact combos, new combo routes, and other changes.)

Loketest Leftovers

2B jump-cancel: if it was jump-cancellable on block, that should've been noted, but WHO KNOWS. I wouldn't get my hopes up but that was almost a thing. Possibly too good combined with other changes.

EX Punch > Brutal A no longer valid: Not the end of the world if this remains (though I like having 4k unburstable round-enders) but it suggests that ASW was fooling with one or both supers at one point (opponents were fallimg faster from EX Punch); may or may not be a ghost change.

5A hitstun increase: Another "doubt it, but it would be nice if true" change.

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If it's anything like BBCP, j.BB/j.2B are part of a few moves that are not dependent on attack level..  these moves cause a special air state that shoots the opponent away to cause a wallbounce and have more untech time than a level 4 normal would usually have. Attack level would still affect the move's blockstun and hitstop though. Basically they could add (or remove) an arbitrary amount of untechable time to the move without obeying attack levels, so without specific numbers it'll sadly be shrouded in mystery for the time being. :X

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If it's anything like BBCP, j.BB/j.2B are part of a few moves that are not dependent on attack level.. these moves cause a special air state that shoots the opponent away to cause a wallbounce and have more untech time than a level 4 normal would usually have. Attack level would still affect the move's blockstun and hitstop though. Basically they could add (or remove) an arbitrary amount of untechable time to the move without obeying attack levels, so without specific numbers it'll sadly be shrouded in mystery for the time being. :X

Just a day or two! Well, until the thing goes live; we'll have to wait for Japanese footage to make its way to our grimy, greedy hands. In any event, I don't think it's an attack level change (I just posited it as the other available option); I think the j.BB/j.2B tweaks are what you speculated: a change to stop highly prorated combos from continuing due to the bounce. And since Lab and Shab received the same notes on j.Bb/j.2B, this actually makes sense, far more so than an attack level change -- Labrys had Red Axe j.2B loops, so I would assume j.2B/j.BB untech changes are aimed at taking those away, and Lab's j.BB is Level 5 (her j.2B is level 4, same as ours). As long as we get enough untech time off j.2B/j.BB, we should get more stable combo routes without sacrificing much, and the corner still loves us. ("Stuck in the Corner with Shabrys: that terrible kids' programme PBS had to cancel after one airing....")

I've actually never had to live through an ASW patch before (well, short of P4A 1.0>1.1; I ... didn't eat the nerfbat for BB:CPE and I'm not emotionally invested), so I don't know how unfounded my current optimism is. But I'm excited for our new 5AAA>2AB blockstring and the improved Knuckle series, as well as FC 2C. And Shab in general! She sounds good. Now to be brutally disappointed.

BananaKen, any thoughts on how these changes will affect Titano? We're probably losing some of our more "basic" sequences, based on the start-up changes to 2C, 5C, and Buffalo... I wonder if Buffalo's quake will float long enough for Brutal to connect during the Hellflames freezetime? And I remember you Tweeting that 5C > Titano activate may be incredibly potent due to the bounce setting up evil cross-ups. Just thinking out loud... in the corner, I wonder if 5C > (Knuckle? Guillotine SB? Air combo?) > Titano D would be viable? If we can combo off the bounce, we might be able to get Asterius to do an in-corner side-swap while using the untechable time from the 5C wallbounce to cover the recovery on Titano activate, then seamlessly move into a Titano sequence. Nothing's stopping us from activating off an in-corner 5C now, obviously, but with the wallbounce on 5C pulling the opponent out of the corner (rather than the groundslide leaving the opponent fully in the corner), we have in-corner cross-up options that we didn't before. Wonder how much untech we'll get on the bounce off 5C.

I have no idea if I'm on the right track or not. I guess we'll have to see.

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BananaKen, any thoughts on how these changes will affect Titano? We're probably losing some of our more "basic" sequences, based on the start-up changes to 2C, 5C, and Buffalo... I wonder if Buffalo's quake will float long enough for Brutal to connect during the Hellflames freezetime? And I remember you Tweeting that 5C > Titano activate may be incredibly potent due to the bounce setting up evil cross-ups. Just thinking out loud... in the corner, I wonder if 5C > (Knuckle? Guillotine SB? Air combo?) > Titano D would be viable? If we can combo off the bounce, we might be able to get Asterius to do an in-corner side-swap while using the untechable time from the 5C wallbounce to cover the recovery on Titano activate, then seamlessly move into a Titano sequence. Nothing's stopping us from activating off an in-corner 5C now, obviously, but with the wallbounce on 5C pulling the opponent out of the corner (rather than the groundslide leaving the opponent fully in the corner), we have in-corner cross-up options that we didn't before. Wonder how much untech we'll get on the bounce off 5C.

I have no idea if I'm on the right track or not. I guess we'll have to see.

 

Titanomachia moves have always been separate from their normal counterparts, so they'll probably remain identical since the changelog  didn't mention anything. They might have changed it anyway of course, but it would definitely be an unlisted change.

 

5C>Titanomachia should let you get a full combo, period. 2A>5B+C>Sweep>(5C hit)>Titanomachia>2B should be possible midscreen. In the corner you should be able to get followups as well, since you would be cancelling out your j.214A/B's recovery with Titanomachia.

 

Corner crossups would probably be off special cancels, like 5C>236D as an ender, only you likely have to meaty the opponent yourself before the laser is ready. Another possibility is 5C>236C might come out in time for meaty timing, but it only provides you with enough time for a single jump mixup which is fine.

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Taken from twitter:

 

 

最低保障関連

C支配 720

D支配 780

SB支配 780

Aブル 780

Bブル 1050

SBブル 1100

ティタノ最終段 900

 

 

These are minimum dmg values. It's technically not an "unlisted" nerf since min. damage reduction was specified for the whole cast, the specific values weren't known, however.

 

C Punch - 720->720

D Punch - 780->780

SB Punch - 900->780

A Brutal - 900->780

B Brutal - 1350->1050

SB Brutal - 1800->1100 (!)

Titanomachia Finish - 1020->900

 

Sucks for SB Brutal nerf, not like it was common (sometimes not even optimal) to use it, but doing 50 more damage is not worth it so the move is essentially removed from the game. The rest look fine considering it's supposed to be a change affecting the whole cast.

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Can't say I'm too surprised with the minimum damage adjustments, though I really don't know why they dropped SB to 1100 instead of, say, 1350, just to give some reward for landing the thing. But the reductions don't seem crippling (and Brutal B was a given). Aside from Brutal SB, though, her minimum damage changes seem to be equal with the adjustments other characters have taken (cough, Moonsmasher), so that's encouraging.

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What's 2.0 Slab's execution requirements looking like?  Were they softened?  I really would like to pick her up, but I wanted to learn the game before also fighting through execution.

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2.0 footage, from the day one tournament:

Shadow Labrys vs. Naoto, Kanji

Shadow Labrys vs. Adachi

J.2B/j.BB appear to be fine. 8C and corner combos unaffected.

Chain Knuckle's faster start-up and shorter recovery seems to offset "no bull-cancels on whiff"; Shabrys was able to cover the recovery of 2C with Knuckle.

5C start-up change is apparent.

Last-moment Titano cross-ups are still a thing. :toot:

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What's 2.0 Slab's execution requirements looking like?  Were they softened?  I really would like to pick her up, but I wanted to learn the game before also fighting through execution.

She's probably around the same.

 

Most of the difficulty IMO comes from having good awareness of where the bull is, as well as knowing how to defend with him. Execution wise she doesn't have that much in the way of strict timing; probably the hardest (and necessary) things you would learn are double brutal impact combos that use D Public Execution to set it up, and that move has a lot of active frames so the window to time it correctly is quite large.. just need to find visual cues that you are comfortable with. Other things to consider are keeping back or even down charge while pressuring someone/being pressured in order to set up one of her command grabs. S.Lab may not be a true "charge" character but she definitely has chances to land these charge moves outside of specific setups.

 

Some of her BnB's can take getting used to like 5AAA>Hop>j.2B, but this game lets you buffer inputs by holding them, which makes tight links a little easier.

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S. Lab vs. Narukami, Mits

S. Lab vs. Yukiko

Highlights: FC 2C and FC Buffalo Hammer combos (may not be 100% optimal, but the damage is there); FC Buffalo ended with knockdown into laser oki (oh man); 2C > 214C > Hellflames still a natural combo in Titano even on normal hit (3648 damage); Buffalo Hammer is pretty damn fast; 5A > 2B > 2AB > Knuckle wasn't punished on block by Mits (may still be punishable on IB).

She looks good.

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So for the CH DP>dash 2A+B>2C stuff:

 

The idea would be to time dash 2A+B such that it forces the opponent to tech into 2C or eat a yellow-beat combo that combos into 2C. A meaty 2C is actually a pretty big deal now with possible FC, improved proration and bull cancels (as of 1.1).

 

If they decide to tech into 2C, you could probably get something like 2A+B(whiff, begin charging back)>2C(block)>[4]6C>5A(block)>j.A for a command grab setup. You probably would have enough time to cross them up as well, and 2C as a starter seems to be much more attractive in 2.0.

 

If they decide to eat the yellow-beat combo, depending on 2C's P2 you could get CH DP>dash 2A+B>2C hit>j.214A+B>oki if it's like 1.1, or if 2.0 proration is good enough, CH DP>dash 2A+B>2C hit>j.B>jc.A>j.214A>214C/D could be a thing.

 

With or without the yellow-beat combo, new 2C should make it relatively easy to set up massive slaughter off CH DP, something she couldn't do reliably since P4U. It requires a little more effort, but that's pretty neat I think!

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More 2.0 tier lists. Koichi also made one but his Twitter is protected. It's worth mentioning that Koichi placed Shadow Labrys in A-tier with Adachi and Ken. Almost all 2.0 lists (including the early ones) have rated Ken (especially) and Adachi highly, so seeing S. Lab in the same group may be a sign that Japan is catching on. (On the other hand, Koichi had good things to say about Yukiko -- are we losing our famed 7-3?!)

Expect massive updates to the video thread in the coming days; I've been organising and coding the uploaded footage and hope to have the links available for perusal ASAP. Right now, Yuli-ttle seems to be the most active, and in the absence of the holy trinity, the Shab to watch. I know his combos aren't as strong as strong as we'd like but he's showing some of Shab's new routes and potential, so that's a start.

If you hound the wiki, I updated her 2.0 frame data to reflect the patch notes, although there's still quite a bit we don't know.

I'll see what I can do in terms of contacting Japanese players, since I have a friend who can translate. If there are any specific questions you'd like me to pass on, let me know!

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I'm interested to know what is Nerina's thoughts on the new Shabrys. He seems to be the most loyal of them and was probably the strongest one (after Sorashido stopped playing her).

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Been a while, but I've got some new info about shabrys move changes. I calculated all of these from 2.0 match footage. Her new combo rate is 55%, down from 60%, 5C is now P1 300 and P2 500, 2C is P1 300 and P2 500, 214 series is now P1 200 and P2 400, 214AB now does 1200 damage. Sweep is now P1 200 P2 100. SMP on j2B looks significantly less. If there are any other moves you want me to look at, let me know

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