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VR-Raiden

[Xrd] Sol Badguy Okizeme/Mixups/Gimmicks Thread (Updated 02/14/2015)

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So those don't work :(

Any setup can work. It's just a matter of conditioning and being unpredictable. Just because "they can OS throw" doesn't mean you can't win games with it. And if they are abusing the OS, just empty jump DP RC > 220 damage. And no, they can't throw it because you're cancelling your landing recovery immediately into the uppercut.

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And no, they can't throw it because you're cancelling your landing recovery immediately into the uppercut.

I tried again and I can still throw Sol the frame he lands, timing is hard but I don't think cancelling landing recovery with specials is a thing. Am I wrong? I know it's ground version because damage and the small dust cloud from landing. I also recorded holding up to jump and I can throw him the frame he lands. Yeah empty VV can still blow up throw more often than not but I want to know if I'm just crazy.

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I tried again and I can still throw Sol the frame he lands, timing is hard but I don't think cancelling landing recovery with specials is a thing. Am I wrong? I know it's ground version because damage and the small dust cloud from landing. I also recorded holding up to jump and I can throw him the frame he lands. Yeah empty VV can still blow up throw more often than not but I want to know if I'm just crazy.

You're not crazy, I tested six different recordings and you have what seems like exactly one frame to throw. Like I said before in another thread, though, that isn't really a big deal because you just do super late air HS VV (if you want to RC) and they can't do anything but block. I'll post the combos in the combo thread.

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Cool topic, learned alot from this! 2 questions:

 

1- For the safejump oki, the most common setup is using j.S/j.P as the move to safejump afaik. Would j.HS be a better choice since it lacks recovery frames and hits twice? It could be safer if somehow the timing gets screwed up. I believe that j.S is used for fuzzy setups on certain characters but I dont use them anyways so... use j.HS instead for better consistency?

 

2- There's also another setup using a meaty j.HS as the opponent wakes up, the idea is to hit j.HS with the latest actives frames and then if it gets blocked you can go for a airdash> something mixup (j.SKS for example). Now the question is, could this work as a safejump since, supposedly, there would be no recovery on whiff and blocking would be possible? What can beat this?

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To document some info on fuzzy guards in here:

These are the vids out there now on them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoOqRLvbn-w - dash j.S > fuzzy j.K on Zato (only works on him).

This needs dashing momentum like shown to get combos without having to use air VV. You can do j.K > slight delay j.S > j.HS/j.D with dashing momentum.

Works even if they IB the j.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_53O1v8m7gw - j.S > fuzzy j.P.

Fuzzy j.P works even if they IB the j.S.

j.S > fuzzy j.S also works, but doesn't on IB. It does however work on more characters and is easier to time.

Fuzzy j.P works on: AX, RA, SI, SO, SL, VE, ZA. Fuzzy j.S works on those + BE, IN, LE, PO. Neither work on CH, EL, FA, KY, MA, MI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkdn5DSsJWw - another fuzzy j.P video with a bunch of conversion possibilities.

On fuzzy j.P, some details. It's going to be pretty risky to go for without meter to RC in case they block it. It's pretty hard to confirm whether or not the j.P hit or was blocked in time to input VV or not as far as I can tell (by the way j.SVV reaches lower so it's better for these). Still a pretty strong option to throw in there once in a while though, especially if you have them conditioned to block low after your safejump by doing enough 2K after landing.

An issue with j.S > fuzzy j.P is if they just crouched and got hit by j.S, you whiff j.P and it puts you in an undesirable position. It also isn't air tight on IB to fuzzy j.S. That's what got me looking at using j.D instead tonight. Since it's higher level, there's no gap to fuzzy j.S on IB. Crouch hit of j.D will combo to the j.P or j.S, which allows you to convert.

In corner you can do things like j.D hit (JC) > j.P/j.S > j.SVV |> 5K, or if you didn't confirm and still RC'd the VV, j.SVV(RC) > j.D |> j.D, falling j.D |> Fafnir etc (or triple j.D stuff).

Drawback of using j.D is it isn't as safe to fast reversals due to the landing recovery, but if you input the fuzzy stuff you'd get hit by those anyway.

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Cool topic, learned alot from this! 2 questions:

 

1- For the safejump oki, the most common setup is using j.S/j.P as the move to safejump afaik. Would j.HS be a better choice since it lacks recovery frames and hits twice? It could be safer if somehow the timing gets screwed up. I believe that j.S is used for fuzzy setups on certain characters but I dont use them anyways so... use j.HS instead for better consistency?

 

2- There's also another setup using a meaty j.HS as the opponent wakes up, the idea is to hit j.HS with the latest actives frames and then if it gets blocked you can go for a airdash> something mixup (j.SKS for example). Now the question is, could this work as a safejump since, supposedly, there would be no recovery on whiff and blocking would be possible? What can beat this?

1. j.H is the best, but a few characters can go under it.

 

2. I remember hearing that j.H > air dash mix-up isn't safe if you go for the mix-up, but I haven't tested.

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At the height where you can still air dash after a blocked meaty j.HS, both air dash and low options are vulnerable. You have safe post-landing options from lower heights, but then you lose the air dash option and therefore the mix-up. This is why said mix-up is typically employed after an whiffed j.HS, rather than a meaty j.HS.

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At the height where you can still air dash after a blocked meaty j.HS, both air dash and low options are vulnerable. You have safe post-landing options from lower heights, but then you lose the air dash option and therefore the mix-up. This is why said mix-up is typically employed after an whiffed j.HS, rather than a meaty j.HS.

You can just fall with a j.P or whatever (I think you can do j.S too). It's basically the safe jump oki, only a little better because j.HS forces people to stand so they're less likely to crouch under air dash j.P, for example. If I'm reading the frame data for Level 2 moves right, Sol is +12 on perfectly meaty j.HS in the air.

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Oh yeah, falling j.P works fine for keeping you safe and as a follow-up high option. You just lose the low option in that case. j.HS works perfectly fine as a safe jump.

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You can just fall with a j.P or whatever (I think you can do j.S too). It's basically the safe jump oki, only a little better because j.HS forces people to stand so they're less likely to crouch under air dash j.P, for example. If I'm reading the frame data for Level 2 moves right, Sol is +12 on perfectly meaty j.HS in the air.

 

This is a classic fuzzy. Late jH into falling jP/jK (jK doesn't work on Millia, Chipp, or Leo) will hit if they crouch. Doesn't work on May or Faust. Get jH, FjK, land 5K-5H RC or 6P etc. for instance.

 

Back in XX/#R, AD jPKD would fuzzy but I can't get that to work anymore. 

 

[Guess I'll just edit this post]

 

An oki gimmick: (corner) knockdown, j214K YRC into 1) land, WT, 2) land 2K, 3) jP/jK. No. 3 is sadly not a universal overhead. jK is the easier of the two to hit vs crouch, but it only works on Ky, Pot, Slayer, I-no, Axl, Leo, and Bedman. jP is harder to hit, but it works on everyone jK works on and also (exclusively) Sin, Venom, and Zato. The overhead option doesn't work on the others. If YRC didn't eat inputs, jS would work as a universal overhead. You have to hj214K YRC to get jS to execute.

 

The overhead option above beats holding 7. If you want to empty land out of throw range, you can IAD back j214K YRC. This has the advantage of being spaced so that if you don't YRC, the Kudakero is safe on block (standing or crouch) and beats wake-up jump. However, you lose the overhead option on most characters.

 

Midscreen you can get some cross-up shenanigans off of Kuda YRC after VV > TK knockdown (gotta be that close). 

 

If a taller character (at least Sol's height?) standing blocks j214K, you can RC jP as an overhead. That gives you a weak overhead/low option.

 

*-5D YRC into WT or 5K is decent throw/frame trap. So is *-2S-6H YRC dash WT or 5K or whatever if they don't jump.

 

Since YRC loses inputs (probably 2-3F from my cursory testing) you can naked YRC someone's reversal window.

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Since YRC loses inputs (probably 2-3F from my cursory testing) you can naked YRC someone's reversal window.

mhmhm is this the reason why uki does this often? after knockdown jump YRC and then goes for AD j.S j.D/HS or 2k 

 

maybe this also beat 6P+HS OS ? need to test it

 

edit: about gf yrc oki: after the 6P delay 5HS BR  if you IB the gf you can jump out from low AD or throw the 2k, but you cant jump out the 2k

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mhmhm is this the reason why uki does this often? after knockdown jump YRC and then goes for AD j.S j.D/HS or 2k

maybe this also beat 6P+HS OS ? need to test it

edit: about gf yrc oki: after the 6P delay 5HS BR if you IB the gf you can jump out from low AD or throw the 2k, but you cant jump out the 2k

The neutral falling YRC doesn't seem that strong to me. I haven't looked at it in detail yet though. You can eat reversal input with it but all they have to do is put it in again if they're ready for it. I think the slowdown isn't long enough to help much vs 6P+HS OS but I could be wrong, need to look at it again.

On the 6P > delay 5HS > BR GF YRC, yeah your findings match mine, but you can space yourself outside throw range by walking so 2K hits them out of their throw whiff (at no cost to the advantage of the GF, which is what the delay 5HS is accomplishing).

Speaking of GF YRC, I looked at something a bit more. It is actually possible in standard ender Kudakero 6P BR to get immediate backdash GF YRC > empty jump 2K to be gapless even on IB (I didn't think it was at least). I got this on every character except Venom (49f face-up), very difficult on Ky (51f) though. You have to get the backdash, GF, AND YRC as soon as possible. I think the neutral jump outside throw range methods would still be worth knowing, since if you're 1f off it can mean the 2K is throwable. I may record this later for the hell of it and to have a reference for the timing.

I know there's no gap because when I IB GF and let go of the stick, you see the ! symbol for not blocking low. That only shows if you're in stun or were blocking the wrong way unless I'm mistaken. Symbol wasn't showing when I missed the timing, and I could throw the 2K.

While I'm at it some stuff that's made its way into matchup threads but not here yet iirc:

On Sin and Chipp (58f) you have time to simply walk back out of throw range after standard BR corner ender into high advantage GF YRC > neutral jump (so delay 5HS isn't necessary, plus it makes BR whiff on Sin).

On Potemkin, low airdash j.P and j.K hit his crouch, making it harder to react or jump out of. j.K goes to j.D so that'll leads to stronger combos and only 1f slower than j.P.

and working on getting a list of characters which low airdash j.S > j.D can cause j.D to whiff on crouch hit at certain heights. Right now I know of I-no, May, Millia, Sin? Need to double check, and curious who else has noticed the problem and on what characters.

Stand hit 2K > 6P range where it combos is also character specific, based on how wide their hurtbox is I'm guessing. It's pretty annoying when going for neutral jump 2K spaced out. I know of this problem on Millia and Chipp so far.

EDIT:

Need to correct what I said earlier for the backdash GF YRC, it's not really getting each of those out as soon as possible, if you do it too fast you can get red RC depending on wakeup time. I think the important part is getting the YRC as soon as possible after GF, so very slight delays may be needed before that point so they've started wakeup. Lowest airdash j.S still tends to lose to IB 6P's, but they're less inclined to do that if they can't OS it with throw since 2K hits that. Here's a vid demonstating it on Venom (gap) and Ky (no gap): http://youtu.be/l9QMJLNk86w

This post keeps going but...another element to fuzzy guards in corner.

If you do the usual higher j.S > j.D to possibly hit them for switching to low block too early, you can fuzzy off that j.D too. So then they'd have 3 high hits to block in a row. Works really well with dash momentum, not so well without. If the j.D hits your fuzzy attempt will combo and you can continue.

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I recorded a setup where immediate backdash gf yrc low airdash j.s is a trueblockstring so you can hold 7 after block the gf and still be able to block the j.s...lol? 

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I recorded a setup where immediate backdash gf yrc low airdash j.s is a trueblockstring so you can hold 7 after block the gf and still be able to block the j.s...lol?

Sounds like it, but was this on normal block of the GF? And maybe not absolute minimum height airdash j.S? which is best as far as mixing up high and low I believe.

On that note I tested minimum height airdash j.S > j.D on everyone's crouch block except Sin and Leo (will test them next time I'm on PS3). A problem that can occur is j.S hits then j.D whiffs. On almost everyone with that problem, you can slightly delay the j.D to solve that issue, but j.HS instead is foolproof for slightly weaker combo followups. Delaying j.D slightly is better to do anyway to give better advantage on block after landing and be safer to bursts or Dead Angles.

Results I got:

Must delay j.D on

- IN, MA, ZA

OK on

- AX, BE, CH, EL, FA, KY, PO, RA, SO, SL, VE

Never works on

- MI

If someone has different results, or tested on Sin/Leo already feel free to share. Keep in mind this is talking about lowest possible airdash j.S > j.D, from higher up it tends to have less issues.

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Sounds like it, but was this on normal block of the GF? And maybe not absolute minimum height airdash j.S? which is best as far as mixing up high and low I believe.

 

normal block and probably not at minimum height

 

you can also reversal BS the gf and throw the 2k(need to test but should be possible)

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you can also reversal BS the gf and throw the 2k(need to test but should be possible)

I've been wondering about reversal BS against it. I tested it very briefly and couldn't seem to throw 2K but my timing was probably just off. Definitely need to look at it in detail (me no like reversal BS being a thing).

EDIT:

Yeah, tried it again and you can definitely BS the GF > throw the 2K unfortunately. So if they are doing that, spaced outside throw range options are gonna be that much more desirable.

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After spaced out midscreen BR, you can dashing GF into some goofy cross-up setups. Some seem harder to react to than others. The GF hits as cross-up in each recording shown. 1:BB, 2:dash jump, 3:IAD, 4:tk.BR, 5:BR YRC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ1DOSIeHlU

EDIT:

I am actually a bit puzzled as to why cross-up protection doesn't kick in for some of these.

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After spaced out midscreen BR, you can dashing GF into some goofy cross-up setups. Some seem harder to react to than others. The GF hits as cross-up in each recording shown. 1:BB, 2:dash jump, 3:IAD, 4:tk.BR, 5:BR YRChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ1DOSIeHlU

Now that just looks funny, but it also explains the random hits I would get while accidentally IADing over them with GR YRC.

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I did some testing on the typical BR knockdown > backdash GF (YRC) setup. I wanted to see how different wake up timings reacted to minimum height airdash j.S when they tried jumping (upback) after blocking or IB the GF. Obviously this loses to empty jump 2K, but I wanted to know how tight minimum height airdash j.S was on each timing. I didn't test all characters, just a group of those with similar wake-up timings/comboing tendencies.

I tried my best to make sure I got minimum height, results I got:

Normal block GF > jump results in air blocking air dash j.S:

- Venom(49f) and Bedman(52f). Bedman is weird here, considering the rest of the results.

Normal block GF > jump results in getting hit out of jump startup by airdash j.S:

- Ky(51f), Potemkin(52f), I-no(52f), Millia(53f), Sol(53f), Slayer(54f)

Normal block GF > jump results in blocking air dash j.S on ground (solid blockstring):

- Elphelt(55f), Sin(58f), Chipp(58f)

Instant block GF > jump results in jumping out of air dash j.S:

- Ky(51f), Bedman(52f), Potemkin(52f), I-no(52f), Millia(53f), Sol(53f), Slayer(54f), Venom(49f)

Instant block GF > jump results in getting hit out of jump startup by airdash j.S:

- Elphelt(55f), Sin(58f), Chipp(58f)

In summary, 51f-54f face up wake up characters can only jump out of minimum height airdash j.S with IB (except Bedman, weird exception but maybe error in testing). 55f and up result it in being a blockstring on normal block and getting hit out of jump startup on IB.

Extra note on Potemkin: you can minimum height air dash j.K instead of j.S. This makes it tighter, so if he IB the GF and jumps, it hits him out of jump startup.

What would be more important to know is which characters 6P/anti-air can beat this j.S, I want to look at that too but tested this first.

Venom is the problem, you can't get empty jump 2K to be gapless on him with this setup. So he always has the 6P+HS option available.

On Venom I was trying to get a setup where empty 2K was gapless, I only got it once using 6P > delay 5HS > BR ender. It was pretty inconsistent though. However if you're spaced outside throw range, as long as the 2K hits jumping on IB it's not bad, which is more easily achieved with this setup than getting 2K to be gapless.

On meterless corner oki for Venom, since you don't have time to walk back out of throw range into meaty neutral jump safejump timing from a typical BR ender (you can but it's kinda tight), it's more worth it to use the 6P > delay 5HS > BR, or other advantage/pushback increase methods. That way you don't have to move at all or only very slightly to get in position and still have meaty neutral jump safejump timing.

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Don't think it was mentioned in here yet, but off Kudakero |> 6P > 6HS > HSVV->TO ender, you can get the same strength GF (YRC) as BR > backdash method. Simply GF (YRC) in place after the VV, you have to forward jump to reach. Empty jump 2K is gapless on IB (tested on Bedman, 52f face up wake up). It's not as universal as BR, but if you can use that ender and want to spend meter on your oki, it's worth doing over BR > backdash.

good test combo for this btw is 5D > backdash > 6HS > BB > Fafnir > dash 6P > delay 5HS > j.D > Kudakero |> 6P > 6HS > HSVV->TO

EDIT:

also realized you can fuzzy off j.D (RC) on block in corner as well. This lets you do stuff like low airdash j.S > j.D blocked (RC) > dash j.K fuzzy on Zato. Works on IB but only if the j.D was very low.

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Stand blocked IAD j.S > j.K whiff > WT trick which we saw Machaboo make use of vs FAB. It works on everyone pretty well except Faust, Leo, Slayer, and Zato.

On Faust and Leo you have to delay the j.S for it to connect so you aren't high enough for j.K to whiff. It's possible on Leo though I'm told (Final Ultima tested for me, wasn't on PS3 today).

On Slayer, it only works from very far range, otherwise j.K connects.

On Zato j.K pretty much always connects. While this doesn't allow the WT trick, it does mean you can get 4 successive high hits with j.S j.K j.S j.K, which could be confusing or lead to tricks.

I tried this off 5HS blocked since I think that's a realistic scenario for this trick (I believe that's when Machaboo used it).

Also, don't have a timestamp but saw Mugen do 5P blocked > 6HS YRC WT. Pretty tricky, like 2S or 6P into it but they have more options to worry about off 5P.

And Kudakero |> HSVV->TO > GF YRC can grant the same advantage as 6P > BR > backdash GF YRC. I noticed Mugen started using it more. More damage and Tension gain than 6P BR for same oki (if you were going for meterless oki BR still wins). This is good to know for times or characters where 6P > 6HS > HSVV ender won't work.

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Couldn't find anything about this but I've seen some Sol players doing jump (YRC) Airdash for mixup. Is the YRC supposed to eat their DP/6P inputs or just to see if they did a reversal or not?

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Pretty much, it has the chance of messing with whatever they wanted to do on wake-up. I have used it occasionally, but I don't feel like it's something that should be used too often. It can screw with fuzzy jump timing from the opponent if they're repeatedly using that on your safejump oki.

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It can eat inputs, or in the case of certain OSes like the throw/6P OS, you slow their 6P down so that they get bodied by your airdash attack and eat a ton of damage.

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