whitevoid Report post Posted July 16, 2009 hehee... i do that off the dash, but i start at 2 for TKs. I'm inconsistent with it, but I'm trying to phase out 214B, 236A out of my system and do more 623AA combos. The part of me that resists learning it is the part of me that knows I'm just going to do the other combo instead. On that note, A (CH) B links and it's not too hard. Trying to get into the habit of that as well. What's the Mugen combo btw? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Ok, you can't cancel ground specials into tk'd air specials. However, you can still kind of be tricky with them buy doing them after 623a. Edit: Looks like the recovery on the a follow up to 623a is fast enough that you can tk the overhead for semi decent mix up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kumlekar Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Ok, you can't cancel ground specials into tk'd air specials. However, you can still kind of be tricky with them buy doing them after 623a. Edit: Looks like the recovery on the a follow up to 623a is fast enough that you can tk the overhead for semi decent mix up. I believe the followup is also jump cancelable (have to double check). I've been doing it into air throws midscreen with it. (623AA>j.throw>j.C>214C) I wish more of haku's specials were either dash or jump cancelable. it's just 214C, you don't need the "63" The dash cancel version seems to combo better than a TKed version. The 66 is necessary, only the 3 is not, though jumping from 6 to 2 is kinda strange, rolling is easier. Can 623AA go directly into a j.2C loop? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 16, 2009 I do not like mugen because it forces you to have to play offensively, which would be fine if Hakumen's offense didn't suck absolute ass. Even your temporary infinite meter doesn't change that fact. Any good player will pick a spot and burst you then just wait it out. It's not like you have a tool to bait burst (can't rc) and yukikaze isn't going to be fast enough to hit anyone even after you catch it. You are assuming people will sit there while you do your combo video material. Not going to happen in a real match. Also, I may be mistaken but it seems like you guys are still using zantetsu as an overhead. If you want to play at a high level, I suggest breaking that habit right now. Zantetsu is possibly the worst overhead in the game. Anyone any good will see it coming from a mile away. You will only get to use it as a gimmick, and it's not even a good one at that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 I believe the followup is also jump cancelable (have to double check). I've been doing it into air throws midscreen with it. (623AA>j.throw>j.C>214C) I wish more of haku's specials were either dash or jump cancelable. The dash cancel version seems to combo better than a TKed version. The 66 is necessary, only the 3 is not, though jumping from 6 to 2 is kinda strange, rolling is easier. Can 623AA go directly into a j.2C loop? I wish someone would do the frame math and find out if it's faster to JC the A follower into 63214c or to just dash cancel/tiger knee it. Well, I did some testing and it definitely looks faster to just tk it or dash cancel it, plus JCing the A follower puts you too high to really do anything, as the move will just miss. Maybe I'm just not fast enough. Eh. I use to think 623a, a went into the loop but I just can't do it. I can get the late j.c, 2c, but I always miss the super jump follow up. I'm not sure if it's due to spacing, but it technically shouldn't be due to timing as if you can hit 2c, it should always give the same tech window. Maybe I'm messing up because I'm trying to do 623a, a, jc late j.c, 2c, sjc j.2c. Maybe I should instead try to do 623a, a, jc late j.c, 2c, sjc j.b, whatever... I dunno, I'm failing in training mode right now, but I'm really starting to get a feel for when to hit the late j.c so not all time spent is lost :D Give me more stuff to try out! I find trying out new things is keeping me interesting in training mode, it doesn't matter if it seems worthless or pointless or whatever, give me a reason to get my execution better :P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 I do not like mugen because it forces you to have to play offensively, which would be fine if Hakumen's offense didn't suck absolute ass. Even your temporary infinite meter doesn't change that fact. Any good player will pick a spot and burst you then just wait it out. It's not like you have a tool to bait burst (can't rc) and yukikaze isn't going to be fast enough to hit anyone even after you catch it. You are assuming people will sit there while you do your combo video material. Not going to happen in a real match. Also, I may be mistaken but it seems like you guys are still using zantetsu as an overhead. If you want to play at a high level, I suggest breaking that habit right now. Zantetsu is possibly the worst overhead in the game. Anyone any good will see it coming from a mile away. You will only get to use it as a gimmick, and it's not even a good one at that. We aren't talking about 41236c as overhead, we're talking about tk'd and dash canceled 63214c's as overheads. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kumlekar Report post Posted July 16, 2009 I would think 66214C would be fast than tking because of jump startup, not too sure though. no idea how good it is as an overhead, it really depends on the minimum number of frames from the start of the dash till the move can be preformed. j.214C has 13 frame startup. I agree with you about mugen ryoko. As for zanketsu, not really sure why your bringing that up, but the move is so slow that I routinely get tager bustered when trying to preform it against the comp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Posted this elsewhere, but really it should be here. I agree. I actually get complimented even when I lose because I'm hit confirming single hit jabs into specials. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3519 damage for 6 stars. 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2278 damage for 3 stars. Didn't charge 6c. 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c, 632146c does 3975 damage for 7 stars. I didn't charge 6c or the super. 2a, 214b, 236a, 41236c does 2366 damage for 6 stars. 2a, 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2157 damage for 3 stars. That's 121 damage less than just one 2a. 2b, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2715 damage for 3 stars. That's a noticeable increase from 2a, but remember 2b has slightly less range than 2a and is slightly slower. Ironically, it being slower means it's easier to hit confirm. 623a, a, 236a, 6c, 632146c does 4153 damage for 7 stars. I'm done playing around for now. Well, one more. 2a, 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3275 damage for 5 stars. That's 244 less damage thatn just one 2a. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3883 damage for 5 stars. That's 364 more damage than 2a. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c does 3837 damage for 5 stars, but lets you continue the combo like so... 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, c (near corner only probably, I just did this accidentally so I figured I'd record damage just cause) does 4536 damage for 6 stars. Worth noting, to hit the c after the 41236c requires stricter timing on canceling the first hit of 214b. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, 6c does 4749 damage for 6 stars. Mmm. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, c does 3472 damage for 5 stars. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, 6c does 4447 damage for 6 stars. Note, the timing for these combos off 41236c have way stricter timing than the earlier combos. I sometimes had them able to tech the 6c, and once the 236a missed after 5c, not to mention 5c won't hit if you don't cancel 214b really early. I'm done playing around for now FOR REALS THIS TIME. Next time I might play around with adding 623a, a instead of 236a. Hrm, I just realized I was in mugen maybe for one of the above combos, but I don't know which one. I might not have been, I'm not sure. I wasn't paying attention because I had forgotten mugen increased damage dealt. Check my math if you want! I'm lazy. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 623a, a does 3710 damage for 7 stars. I don't think any combo off of this is going to be worth it damage wise. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 5c, 623a, a, jc j.c did 4636 damage for 7 stars. Keep in mind, for 7 stars you can get 4153 with the much easier 214b, 236a, 6c, 632146c. Which means doing the easier combo loses you 483 damage. That's actually kind of interesting because 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 5c, 623a, a, jc j.c wasn't hard at all. Keep in mind supers aren't burstable, and the longer your combo is the more chance your opponent has to burst. Plus, if you have 7 stars, your opponent probably doesn't have max life and will definitely burst during this combo, so it might be worth it to keep it short and use the super to guarantee your damage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 I would think 66214C would be fast than tking because of jump startup, not too sure though. no idea how good it is as an overhead, it really depends on the minimum number of frames from the start of the dash till the move can be preformed. j.214C has 13 frame startup. I agree with you about mugen ryoko. As for zanketsu, not really sure why your bringing that up, but the move is so slow that I routinely get tager bustered when trying to preform it against the comp. It depends on how fast hakumen's jump is compared to how faster the dash start up is. And obviously it'll be hard to know which of the cancelable frames you're canceling your dash on, because I can't see individual frames, can you? Lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 16, 2009 dash cancel is better because you instantly land after the move. Much safer. Not to mention dashing allows you to play more aggressively. TK means you have to stop moving. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 dash cancel is better because you instantly land after the move. Much safer. Not to mention dashing allows you to play more aggressively. TK means you have to stop moving. Wasn't debating better, was debating faster. This shouldn't be in the combo thread, it should be in the hakumen thread. Combos here, theory there :P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 16, 2009 My fault, but let me address the question then. TK is faster simply because the motion of the input for TK flows together while the motion for dash cancel doesn't. That said, the difference is marginal and the only way to block the overhead is to guess it, not to look for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kumlekar Report post Posted July 16, 2009 It depends on how fast hakumen's jump is compared to how faster the dash start up is. And obviously it'll be hard to know which of the cancelable frames you're canceling your dash on, because I can't see individual frames, can you? Lol hm, yes i can, but doing this online will be a bitch. (Replay theater has a frame by frame option) I'm not so sure about that speed thing ryko. Obviously the 66 is a bit slower input, but on a TK you have to wait for the jump. (214B is the best example of that, if you input B too early you get the ground version even if you hit 2147B) Never mind I'm being stupid theres probably more than a 4 frame difference between inputing 663214 and 2147. That said, I was pretty proud of myself when I landed a dash canceled 214C in a online match today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faultydefense Report post Posted July 16, 2009 combos off j.D if you hit the j.d around the peak of a normal jump, then you can 5 stars = j.D > j.214B > dj.214C > falling j.C (have to settle for a falling j.B if you were just short of having the C come out) 6 stars = j.D > j.214B > dj.214C > falling j.C > 236A > 6C or 2C if near corner after 236A... (4529 DMG) 7 stars = corner: j.D > j.214B > dj.214C > falling j.C l> 214B > 2C > j.2C air dash > j.2C > j.2C > j.2C (6520 dmg) midscreen: j.D > j.214B > dj.214C > falling j.C l> 623A~A > j.2C air dash j.2C (5337 dmg) carl doesnt get hit by the 214B and rachel doesnt get hit by the j.214C in the beginning and are excluded from this list 5 star combo, works on all 6 star combo, works on hakumen, arakune, jin, litchee, nu 7 star combo, corner: doesnt work on bang, noel, tao midscreen: doesnt work on bang, litchi, nu for whatever reason, after the falling j.C the landing recovery of the C isn't canceled and I can't go into either 2C or 5C so I'm having to cancel into 214B and 623A as the 6/7 star combos. This has only been tested in training mode, and I'm not sure why it happens so it may just be a glitch, havent landed the combo that far in an online match. If it is a glitch and you can cancel it in an actual match, the idea follow up to that 5 star combo would probably be 2C > j.2C > xxx depending on distance to corner. confirmation would be sweet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Does jc into 5c in all your combos not link? Or does the additional 5c screw up your j2c loop later? I have no idea because I basically do not use jd at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Of note, the combos I posted where all tested on Jin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whitevoid Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Posted this elsewhere, but really it should be here. I agree. I actually get complimented even when I lose because I'm hit confirming single hit jabs into specials. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3519 damage for 6 stars. 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2278 damage for 3 stars. Didn't charge 6c. 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c, 632146c does 3975 damage for 7 stars. I didn't charge 6c or the super. 2a, 214b, 236a, 41236c does 2366 damage for 6 stars. 2a, 2a, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2157 damage for 3 stars. That's 121 damage less than just one 2a. 2b, 214b, 236a, 6c does 2715 damage for 3 stars. That's a noticeable increase from 2a, but remember 2b has slightly less range than 2a and is slightly slower. Ironically, it being slower means it's easier to hit confirm. 623a, a, 236a, 6c, 632146c does 4153 damage for 7 stars. I'm done playing around for now. Well, one more. 2a, 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3275 damage for 5 stars. That's 244 less damage thatn just one 2a. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 3c does 3883 damage for 5 stars. That's 364 more damage than 2a. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c does 3837 damage for 5 stars, but lets you continue the combo like so... 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, c (near corner only probably, I just did this accidentally so I figured I'd record damage just cause) does 4536 damage for 6 stars. Worth noting, to hit the c after the 41236c requires stricter timing on canceling the first hit of 214b. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, 6c does 4749 damage for 6 stars. Mmm. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, c does 3472 damage for 5 stars. 2a, 214b (1), 41236c, c, 236a, 6c does 4447 damage for 6 stars. Note, the timing for these combos off 41236c have way stricter timing than the earlier combos. I sometimes had them able to tech the 6c, and once the 236a missed after 5c, not to mention 5c won't hit if you don't cancel 214b really early. I'm done playing around for now FOR REALS THIS TIME. Next time I might play around with adding 623a, a instead of 236a. Hrm, I just realized I was in mugen maybe for one of the above combos, but I don't know which one. I might not have been, I'm not sure. I wasn't paying attention because I had forgotten mugen increased damage dealt. Check my math if you want! I'm lazy. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 623a, a does 3710 damage for 7 stars. I don't think any combo off of this is going to be worth it damage wise. 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 5c, 623a, a, jc j.c did 4636 damage for 7 stars. Keep in mind, for 7 stars you can get 4153 with the much easier 214b, 236a, 6c, 632146c. Which means doing the easier combo loses you 483 damage. That's actually kind of interesting because 2b, 214b (1), 41236c, 5c, 623a, a, jc j.c wasn't hard at all. Keep in mind supers aren't burstable, and the longer your combo is the more chance your opponent has to burst. Plus, if you have 7 stars, your opponent probably doesn't have max life and will definitely burst during this combo, so it might be worth it to keep it short and use the super to guarantee your damage. Should also try out 214B(1), 623AA, etc etc... It is about right for the damage at 4 stars. I'm starting to go: 2 Stars 623AA, jC, 2C, j2C 3 Stars 214B, 236A, 6C 4 Stars 214B(1), 623AA, jC, 2C, j2C 5 Stars 214B(1), 41236C, 5C 6 Stars 214B(1), 41236C, 5C, 236A, 6C 7 Stars 214B(1), 41236C, 5C, 623AA, jC, 2C, j2C The big efficiency drop is between 4 and 5 stars. Most efficient use of a star is off of Throw, 236A, 6C. You can still do 214B(1), 41236C and 214(B), 41236C, 236A, 6C and 214(B), 41236C, 623AA, JC, 2C, j2C off of a Throw, but it doesn't scale like normal combos would, doing around 4+kish and ~5kish and 5+kish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faultydefense Report post Posted July 16, 2009 Does jc into 5c in all your combos not link? Or does the additional 5c screw up your j2c loop later? I have no idea because I basically do not use jd at all. if you're talking about mine, the j.C is not normal cancellable when you land for some reason, if you can get a 5C after the falling C, by all means go for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 17, 2009 I've also noticed times where j.c won't cancel into 5c. I typically use 5/2a to continue the combo but that's because I didn't know I could land a special (quickest is 214b at 9 frames? Or is 236a faster? 214b prorated less for sure.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thebrassthief Report post Posted July 17, 2009 Newbie here... I've been practising the combos from the Hakumen training video, and on Combo 3 and 4, I always grey out the combo and I don't know why. :/ Any idea what I'm doing wrong? EDIT: I just noticed, it's every time I do a 2C to keep them in the air. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angrynord Report post Posted July 17, 2009 After experimenting somewhat with dash cancel and TK 214C, I've found the dash cancel to be rather useful. Hakumen lands quickly enough that you can hit a 5C if it connects, and can combo from there. He has several half life combos outside of the corner using it. In the corner you can simply do 214C > 5C > 623AA and then go into the normal j.2C loop for 5k+. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4r5 Report post Posted July 17, 2009 you can get a 2C off a dash>214C also Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magatama Junkie Report post Posted July 17, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7659219 this video has a lot of really good stuff I can't tell what's going on cause it's japanese. Use the mmcafe link if you can't watch nico like me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted July 17, 2009 It's just a combo vid. They are saying most of it is not actual gameplay applicable, just looks cool. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blade Report post Posted July 17, 2009 Hey guys, whats the trick behind 623A>2C after 236A wallbounce? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites