[CT] Ragna vs Jin

[ryokoalways]

Ok this is interesting (at least to me): I don't know where to post this, but this needs to be known to everyone. Also correct me if wrong. Let's use Jin's A dp as an example, blocking it in the air: normal block (cannot be blocked, needs barrier) Instant Block (can be blocked without barrier) Applies to everything in the category I think.

[Ragnarok]

yes. You're supposed to be able to air IB pretty much everything. reason is when you bursted, it's your only defense against ground to air moves as you got no more barrier. To add to things said before about DPs, air dash > IB DP > j.C counter. Do it~ And for the possibility to punish only when mid-close after empty jump, Ragna got outrageously long normals, and hell's fang, so watch out on those even if you think he's too far, Ryokoalways. Empty jump (not in) > hell's fang, got TONS of counter oportunities against a DP mashing Jin.

[ryokoalways]

Oh don't worry about me, I don't have much trouble dealing with Ragna. Playing Jam in GG gave me plenty of experience with playing against characters that have better range than I do (which is basically everyone). And I assure you I do not dp mindlessly, which is why the whole IB dp thing isn't really one of my concern. If I get beat, it's because I got outplayed, and not because I fell for some gimmick empty jump in.

[ZeroKunoichi]

Try to IB when he has you in the corner and jab out of his 6C or do a counter attack and lose 50% Heat. That's why when you IB you gai 3% of heat and it's basically for counter attack for cases like this. That's the way to get someone off you if you like your Burst.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I agree air approach is viable, but I interpreted it as you use air approach more than ground. What I meant is that you should air dash in very sparingly. I did not mean to not air dash at all.

And I did mention that unless close range, a dp is viable aa. It's not like I have not been baited by a jump in, but overall I have had success against most chars when using a dp as the aa in place of the missing 6a (As I mentioned in the previous post,I agree that it's not better, but it is an able replacement).

That just means your opponents aren't as good as you think they are. Ragna 6A is way better than any DP in this game when it comes to anti-air. By and large, DPs are easy to IB and are too slow/not invincible enough to treat them as your first AA option.

If you're going to try to offer matchup advice in a matchup you don't understand in a game you clearly don't understand... don't. You can air IB all of Jin's DPs and it's not even all that difficult. Plus Jin's 5C is a better anti-air against Ragna than his DPs anyways.

Also how the hell are people taking 75% damage off CH 5C > 5D, mash out of that ice and stop getting purple thrown or something, geez.

[ryokoalways]

I never said Jin's dp is better than ragna's 6a. I never even mentioned dps being better. I said it's a viable subsitute, and being 6 frames, the A dp is a viable first option in my opinion. Also allow me to say that this is not an instance where the aa can be done via reaction, for obvious reasons, to prevent people from freaking out further regarding IB blocking and punishing. I would rather you not assume I do not understand a game/matchup or anything of that nature. I have no interest taking up a conversation with a player that decides to act elitist. If you have criticism, I would love to hear it and have a civil discussion about it. You can save your attempt at elitism elsewhere though. And let me assure you I will only post when I am sure I have a decent understand of the topic. I don't post where I know I have no business posting, such as anything regarding Litchi because I have no actual experience against any. I agree 5c is a viable aa against ragna, but it's a bit slow for my personal liking. That's my own problem though, but you are absolutely right, and depending on ragna's air approach, it's a safer option in those specific instances. Also, if my post regarding IB against certain attacks such as dp and 6a was old news, my apologies

[Meever]

I just wanted to add that Jin's DP is absolutely retarded (except the Force Break version) and has awful startup, invinciblity and priority. Most Jins use either 2C or 6C as anti-air (I think, it's still kinda fuzzy) and they're both pretty sluggish and obvious, so IBing them isn't too tough. Jump ins and ice car punishing alone should get you pretty far against most Jin players.

[Prototype909]

Is there any way for Ragna to get by the Wolf Head? Because that shit is fucking me up lately

[Killey]

A lot of common mistakes in this match up is the IAD tactics that Ragna uses. You will eat Jin's 5D or 2D (if timed right) if you are rushing in like that. You could potentially eat a CH C Fubuki as well. Bait that out and IB and punish afterwards. In close Ragna's 2a (among other things) has better priority then Jin's moves just don't spam 2a too much otherwise Jin can 6B counter hit into combo for big damage. Jin only has 1 grounded overhead (6A) and can only be chained with a 5a, 2a so if Jin is starting out his pressure with 5b or anything else then just block low. If he takes to the air you can bet he'll be doing jB, jC so block high (unless there is a suitable counter for this) and keep the defense on until you can muster up an offensive.The startup animation for 6A is incredibly long and easy to counter. 6B is not an overhead so don't let the animation fool you to block high but you could if you want, hell you could IB and punish afterwards. If you get caught in a block string then block low to avoid Jin's 3C knock down, otherwise you'll get caught in his pressure game. Barrier guard his rush downs to push him back and make an attempt to reclaim the pacing of the match. Jin's 5b is a frame trap so barrier guard to push your way out. If you get caught in this frame trap then you could eat a CH into big damage or get thrown. 5B sucks you in for perfect throw distance so if you aren't barrier guarding or IB then be prepared to tech a throw. In the corner Jin can pressure with 5c, 5d's so even if you block one Wolf Head a second one can easily come out and punish a rush attempt.

[Siefer]

Is there any way for Ragna to get by the Wolf Head? Because that shit is fucking me up lately

EDIT: Just don't worry about what I said, although if you IB, they can't do anything to follow-up.

[VR-Raiden]

Is there any way for Ragna to get by the Wolf Head? Because that shit is fucking me up lately

If you're quick, you can Hells Fang him if he whiffs it.

[acfan]

After some ranked matches, I have this same problem. He got me to a wall and just kept spamming his ice ride slash and shit. I could not get out of it without barrier bursting, which is something I really can't afford to do. :/

[KatanaDash]

umm, to beat ice car, all you have to do is block seriously block both hits and then 5B -> combo. No IB necessary or anything. The move is terribly unsafe. You can beat many many jin player (bad ones) simple by waiting for ice car, blocking and then going for a simple 5B,5C,214A,214D. Next time you fight a ice car jin just try doing that. You can practice it in training mode by recording the training dummy to do ice car, and then playing it back. if you learn to IB the second hit you can get fit a more damaging starter in like 5C

[Prototype909]

Also, does Ragna have anything that can beat Jin's 2A? It seems that nothing I do comes out fast enough to stop it.

[Tsak]

his 2A and yours are probably the same speed though there is nothing you can throw out and beat it right off the bat without being vulnerable to baiting you could toss a ID in there and it would hit him most likely

[Cakeair]

lol ...ok none of you guys have helped me lol But I'm starting to learn a little. I just have to be aggressive, and I learned inferno divider kills the ice car.

[Final Ultima]

Don't mind the rename, just getting things ready for the inevitable matchup sub-forum and I figure this is as good a place to start with the vs Jin content as any. As for dealing with Musou Senshouzan, like many people have already said, you really don't need to go through the effort of trying to Inferno Divider through it. If you have enough time to do that, you've got enough time to block/IB and make him pay. Inferno Divider is decent at killing some of his block strings, but be careful if you block his j.C because you'll often just eat his 2As if you try to retaliate.

[Tiamat]

lol

...ok none of you guys have helped me

lol

But I'm starting to learn a little. I just have to be aggressive, and I learned inferno divider kills the ice car.

are you serious.......................

maybe if you would READ what people posted you wouldn't have to use inferno divider to beat icecar

[RoK the Reaper]

First off, Everyone is saying instant Block like that shit is really easy, everytime I instant block it's mostly by accident, so let's dismiss that. First off, Jin has a lot more options than Ragna, he has projectiles, and freeze can lead to combos. Ice car is face and he can use it to escape corners and his Distortion drives are fast and normally inescapable as long as he uses them right (During the middle of your dash, when he knocks you down with his freeze to hit thing where you slide/Throw to Ice arrow thing). One thing I've used while fighting Jin, first, access if it's a good Jin or not. You can tell this early on by how he uses his anti-air's, if he uses Ice car or not in a unpredictable fashion and if he spams Ice moves or has combos. If it's a suck Jin, just punish the Ice car and jump in a lot. If you find out he's actually a competent player, try not to jump in as much, run in and use 5C at maximum distance or run and mix up your high/low and overheads. Particularly jab string poke, 2B, 6B and 6C (Only if you notice they stop blocking low after a certain point). Try to always land full combos on Jin, he has much more life than you do so you want to make every hit count, Ragna has huge amounts of options, including the damaging combo 623D~236B~236B > 5B > 6A> m.5D> m.5C jc.> m.5D > 623D~236B~214B.

[TomasKraven]

Im kinda experienced in this matchup because my main training buddy is a jin. First, always punish his ice cars, IB or just block them but try not to barrier them specially if is in a block string cause they will get to far for 5B to reach them. If they dash cancel, punish them too... they will try to do it some times and its totally unsafe if they are not a maximum reach. Keep your guard down as much as you can, just watch out for the overheads, which are very slow. try to keep them in 5B range cause thats your safe spot. Always keep pressure and dont give them any space to breath. For aproaching, IAD is a bad idea, they have too many anti air options/fast overdrives. Keep yourself grounded and ID them if they try the air aproach but do it sparringly, cause you dont want to be instant blocked a get punished. They have great pressure strings so try to barrier a lot and dont get too close to walls cause they have a very safe pressure string that will guard crush. Dont get randomly grabbed or frozen because that will cost you the match. The easiest way for ragna to win this matchup is to control the tempo, if you get that, then the match is yours.

[lexer91]

The most important thing to know regarding this match up on the defensive side is this. Always block low. The reason being is that the most effective overhead jin has is his (I think?) 6A. The move where he swirls his sword and hits with the hilt, it's extremely slow and very easy to see and punish with an IB. This is one of the main reasons against Ragna most Jin players prefer to play the punishing type, because of their poor mixup, and the fact that if they botch it up, they will be easily punished. In that respect, the match is simple to control, since any over exertion of the Jin player will leave him at a disadvantage. Oh and IB the shit out of Ice car that shit is mad slow xDDD.

[Shinobi]

Having played this match-up a lot I feel I can actually contribute to this thread. Always be looking to throw break after Jin does his 5K (2 hits). Actually, always be looking to throw break period. 5K is one of the more common set-ups to a throw attempt but they'll also try it in air combos, after a successful throw, or after that one distortion drive (I think it's 632146+D? The one where he hit's you in the air). Beware of 5D, this move can literally stuff a lot of your rush attempts, be it on foot or an IAD, so when you're going to apply pressure always be ready to barrier block and punish this move. Good Jin's want you to crouch block their pressure strings because that'll allow them to connect with their 6C once they finally get a hit on you. They'll never throw out that garbage 6A and instead prefer j.B, when you see him go airborne in his pressure strings he's going for that j.B so get ready for that. Clever Jin's will attempt a j.D cross up so be on the look out of that. If you block it he's completely vulnerable so punish away. For garbage Jin's, punish ice car with 5B>Combo. Punish that multi-sword attack of his with HF (HF after 4 or 5 sword swipes, basically once they push you out HF back in). HF will always CH Jin while he's doing this move so you can punish this move hard. You can pretty much do whatever you want to him off a HF counter hit so have fun with it. You'll beat garbage Jin's by doing nothing but punishing these two moves because they LOVE to use them.

[captainocd]

Against the Jin I play, the entire match revolves around his 5D. I simply can't approach him because it's such a massive threat and leads to me losing half my health if it lands. So the match turns into this mind game where I approach him and either get hit by 5D or block 5D and am back on the other side of the screen.

It's so hard to get in, any advice as to what to do AFTER I block? I feel like I'm too far away to do anything by maybe a Hell's Fang.

What other options do I have for approach? The only successful approach uas been IAD jC which occasionally hits depending on the circumstances, but it's unreliable and thus far been my only option, therefor it's forecasted and obvious. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong, there has to be more options besides block or jC.

And finally, what do I have for options against Jin's mash C? I usually just block out of it and back off, but putting distance between the two of us is to his advantage. Earlier in the thread, there was mention of timing a Hell's Fang. Could they elaborate? Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to both of use taking a counter hit. Also, is that the only option vs mash C?

This thread has been of great use to me so far (I no longer have Ice Car troubles) so I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed. Huge help to us newbie fighting game players.

[Siefer]

Against the Jin I play, the entire match revolves around his 5D. I simply can't approach him because it's such a massive threat and leads to me losing half my health if it lands. So the match turns into this mind game where I approach him and either get hit by 5D or block 5D and am back on the other side of the screen.

It's so hard to get in, any advice as to what to do AFTER I block? I feel like I'm too far away to do anything by maybe a Hell's Fang.

What other options do I have for approach? The only successful approach uas been IAD jC which occasionally hits depending on the circumstances, but it's unreliable and thus far been my only option, therefor it's forecasted and obvious. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong, there has to be more options besides block or jC.

And finally, what do I have for options against Jin's mash C? I usually just block out of it and back off, but putting distance between the two of us is to his advantage. Earlier in the thread, there was mention of timing a Hell's Fang. Could they elaborate? Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads to both of use taking a counter hit. Also, is that the only option vs mash C?

This thread has been of great use to me so far (I no longer have Ice Car troubles) so I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed. Huge help to us newbie fighting game players.

What you can do after you block 5D largely depends on what the Jin decides to do to follow-up. If he does the dash follow-up from non max range, you can punish with 5B or C (I believe) into combo of choice. At max range though, I think Jin can actually recover from dash before you can 5B though, I know there are times when I can't punish his dash.

The other benefit of 5B is that it'll beat out ice car if they decide to follow-up with that.

If he does 5D again, depending on how far away you were, you're probably going to eat it if you tried to punish with 5B. Not sure about that.

If he does 2A, he's going to win out.

If he does DP, you're probably going to eat it if you do 5B.

He could also IAD or jump.

I'm not sure if this is distance dependent, but I know I've been CH'd with Jin's 5C if I tried dash 5B...maybe it's ping, maybe I'm bad, dunno, but that leads to major pain.

Yea, 5D is really annoying.

For approaching, the safest option is probably double-jump with run momentum. If you distance it right, you can actually cross Jin up with j.B and avoid his 623 A/B DPs and 5D. Double-jumping will also allow you to block Jin's superior air-to-air combat, or you can even do j.A which beats out a lot of Jin's stuff in the air depending on distance.

For Jin's mash C, I just back off a bit, and if he's still in animation, I do hell's fang. It works for me.

[Xill]

Jin Mashin' C : 2D Works wonders as well and would end land counter hit for that huge bounce. Also, if you want more of a quick fix, you an kick through it for counter hit. It works. Just gotta learn the spacin' Learn to shake. Not every Freeze is a combo. If you see it isn't, you shouldn't have taken that damage. It sounds really stupid, but change hands and have my right shake for me and my left on the buttons for a quick sec and as son as i'm off I block and get my hands where they need to be. My right hand just shakes so well. :O If you see them toss out the Dash Cancel on D, Jab them out or 5B them. Sometimes the 5B misses, but its trustworthy enough that I'll still toss it out after a D and the distance is right. The only think I really get scared about eating its a D when i'm backdashing. So I start'd jumping forward or back and Barrier blockin'.