Sin vs. Leo

[Eshi]

Discuss the Leo match-up here.

 

Leo Board's Thread

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10068-xrd-leo-whitefang-vs-sin-kiske/

 

Pros 

- 3K is very good at baiting Leo's DP into whiffing

 

Cons 

- 46H projectile is not negated negated by Beak Driver, you still get hit

 

General strategy

- Leo is a gorilla, once he gets close the match-up becomes much more difficult. Zone him out with your pokes and don't get pinned down by his projectile.

[Zephyrion22]

 Most of the matchup specifics were dealt with in the Leo matchup thread, so this is just an addendum that mostly deals with Leo's offense.

 

         Neutral is clearly for us. First, we need to approach his projectiles a bit differently than the rest of the cast : 46S is 2 hits and can't be low profiled, and it's really hard to  Beak driver your way through, 46H is a lot slower though and Beak driver can catch its startup in some cases (doesn't negate the projectile itself if Leo isn't hit, but if it does CH him, the projectile disappears). When you KNOW they are going for the projectile, do K leap or IAD >(j.S)> j6HS to get a clean and deadly punish : both of the projectiles have slow recovery so this will work more often than you think, and force him to YRC them constantly to avoid this. For the rest Leo is overall slower and has less range, so don't hesitate to harass him with our wide arrays of pokes

 

- On offense you will need to be a bit  more careful than usual : His DP being a flashkick doesn't go well with our telegraphed overheads. Be sure to focus on frame traps and various baits with backdashes, YRC and call-outs to gain the respect you need before ever attempting high/low  mixups against Leo. His jump startup being 5f means he can't really fuzzy jump out though, so it's easieur to keep him pinned to the ground

 

       Defense isn't actually that bad for Sin, but you'll need to have knowledge of how Leo's mixups works, and how to punish/deal with his stuff. Here are a few notes that may help you

-6H and 236H both have punishable and/or throwable startups. Those moves are annoying to deal with so stop them whenever you can to get breathing room, or big combos if you have the meter to RC it

-236S is actually slightly negative on block (-1) , so don't let them reset pressure with it too often.  Rekkas are a mindgame which is to your advantage if you defend correctly :  IB the first rekka, then wait a lil bit and press 6+K+H or 4+K+H

6+K+H: If he just does the first rekka and attempts a reset, you'll punish it with 5K : he can only block or backdash at this point. If he attempts the second one, you'll either IB or FD the second one depending on the timing you did it : you can punish the second rekka with 2P unless he cancels it by the third one on IB, or keep your FD up to negate Leo's mixup potential

4+K+H : Gives FD after the IB if he does the first rekka only, and throws him between the two rekkas if he attempts the second one. With some training you can actually easily implement this  in real matches !

-When IBed, his 6K is only + 1 on block, and his 5P is one frame slower than our 2P, so it will trade/clash with his in worst case scenarios, and almost always wins in actual matches since Leo often ends up too far after 6K, and ends up being forced to commit to 5K or dash 2P, and both lose to IB 2P quite badly. He can beat this with delayed rekkas and 236H, in which case you'll have to use the aforementioned solutions.

- FD is just really good against Leo, especially when you're Sin : It forces him to modify his pressure resets or take risks by using rekkas or 236H. Even then, he has trouble keeping up because of the poor momentum his forward dash carries. Couple that with the huge recovery he has on most of his normals and you'll see a few occasions to get at least a simple whiff punish or two

-Whenever Leo goes for Brynhildr stance after anything that isn't a throw, Backdash  is a great option : if you have the timing for it, it will beat every option he has in Brynhildr. The only things he can do is call it out by dashing forward before pressing buttons with a perfect timing (you can still YRC on reaction to block the following mixup, or be trolltastic and attempt another backdash.).

Even without the YRC, he will have to be fast at hitconfirming, as the timing of his dash will dictate if he either hits Sin during the recovery of the backdash (airborne) of after (grounded). Mix it with mash 2P and other defensive options once you conditioned him to call your backdash out.  He can also use the projectile super to call out your backdash while preventing you from YRCing it but it's often  a huge waste of meter for the reward it gives, and is rarely used  this way except in the corner and/or in a round-ending situation.

[Eshi]

One of the tactics I've been trying out recently on Leo is FD flicker. FD on its own is really strong against him, but flicker can theoretically punish him for attempting a cross-up with 236H or Brynhildr dash. For instance, if you hold a button and mash 1P, you'll downback FD his pressure unless he crosses up and then you'll get 2P mash. Or you can do button+4H flicker to FD until he does 236H and throw him out of it when he switches sides. I'm not entirely sure how effective it is yet and need to test more in matches.

 

Really, really good write-up by the way!

[Zephyrion22]

Option selects involving FD and YRC are generally very efficient against Leo. The throw one is very good since it also deals with his 236H YRC 5K/6K option. Even without it, 236H is punishable on reaction once you get used to the animation : If a Leo uses 236H outside of specific setups and YRC shenanigans more than once in a round and catches you with it , it means you have to work on your punishes (or you're playing online against a Laggy Leo xD).

[shadow_nobody]

Going to put up some tips I got in this match-up.

 

6p- Start of the round 6p beats out most of Leo's buttons except for 2d.

5k- Trades with Far S and either beats 2d or causes it to whiff.

If you get a CH on these then cancel into Elk Hunt for the knockdown and play your game.

 

Be cautious when you see Leo whiff 5s and respect the 5Hs that's coming because you'll get CH A lot. Its best to just wait it out and see if 5hs whiffs and use that to punish/take your turn.

 

When you're pressuring with 5hs/Elk Hunt be wary of using 2k due to Leo's 5k having low inv. Instead use 5k/5s/2p