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RurouniLoneWolf

[P4AU] Marie Mixup/Pressure/Oki Thread

By RurouniLoneWolf, in Marie

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RurouniLoneWolf   

RurouniLoneWolf
Posted
P4U2_Header_Gameplay_Discussion.png
 
 
Hey guys, Rurouni here. I've taken the time to gather a lot of what we know about Marie mixup and pressure from the gameplay thread and put it in one mega thread. I hope it helps
 
 
Overview
 
Marie is a character with an interesting toolset and a lot of this carries over into her mixup and pressure. Evil Eye, Present and even her Awakening super, Shining Arrow, give her interesting oki options beyond the standard blockstrings.
 
 
Tools
 
Mixups
5A - Low 
2A - Low
Sweep - Low
 
j.A - Overhead
j.B - Overhead
j.2B - Overhead
AOA - Overhead
 
Throw 
 
Pressure
5a jump cancel
2B jump cancel
5C dash cancel
Bag Stance cancel (214A~D) 
 
Oki
Evil Eye (214C) 
Dance, Fallen Angels/present (214A)
Shining Arrows (214214C/D/SB)
 
 
Special Defensive Options
 
Everything you need to know about Defensive OSs can be found here in this thread. It's important to be aware of these defensive options so that you can structure your pressure in ways that can deal with them so be sure to give it a read!
 
Additionally, LordKnight has recently made a shorter, more compact video on Fuzzy Jump that you should check out. Video
 
 
Blockstrings
 
Run up Throw
A fairly basic and straight forward mixup. One thing to consider when going for this mixup is positioning. Marie's throw sends her opponents flying back, which will end your ability to continue your pressure midscreen. While in the corner, you'll be able to convert it into a full combo. So when you're deciding whether or not to go for this mixup, you should take into consideration your current position and the rewards for a successful throw.    
Cons:
Loses to all the defensive OSs. Without the proper use of anti OS blockstrings to make them afraid of OSing this mixup, you might have a lot of difficulty opening people up who are choosing to OS out of it. 
Synergizes with:
- Run up > Jump back falling j.B
 
 
 
Run up > Jump back falling j.B - Video Example
This is something that only really works once you have people expecting run up throw. The way it works is that you run up as if you're going to do a run up throw and then instead jump back. When the opponent predicts a run up throw and tries to tech, they'll instead whiff a throw and your falling j.B will counter hit them out of it. 
Cons:
It's really a mix up that can only work with proper conditioning. As a result, it should come as no surprise that this is a mixup that you won't be going for that often. 
Synergizes With:
Run up Throw
 
 
 
5A/2A/5AA > delay (Micro Dash) Throw - Video Example
Tick throw setups. Again, because of the nature of Marie's throw, it's best to consider your positon on the screen when deciding whether or not to go for this mixup
Cons:
Much like Run Up Throw, this loses to the defensive OSs. Without the proper use of anti fuzzy jump blockstrings to make them afraid of OSing this mixup, you can have a lot of difficulty opening people up who are choosing to OS out of it.   
Synergizes with:
- Anti Fuzzy Jump Blockstrings 
 
 
 
5A/2B > jc IAD j.2B > j.B - 5A Viideo Example - 2B Video example
This mixup is mostly only used in the corner and takes advantage of one of Marie's 2 jump cancelable on block normals to go for a quick overhead. 
Cons:
DP - Because there is a small gap between 2B and the IAD j.2B, it's possible to DP out of this mixup
Fuzzy Jump - You get airthrown. If you just jump back and do nothing, you can still get airthrown by the forward version of the fuzzy jump.
Roll - They roll out of the corner and you whiff j.2B
Synergizes with:
2B > jc delay j.2B > j.B
2B > 7jc > IAD Cross Up j.2B
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 2C
2B > 5D
 
 
 
2B > jc delay j.2B > j.B - Video Example
This is a small variation of the above blockstring that changes its nature from a mixup to a pressure reset. The way it works is that instead of doing a jump back into an air dash j.2B, you jump forward or straight up and wait until you reach the top of your jump height to do j.2B. Although the delay makes it very easy to block j.2B High, it allows for Marie to chain into j.B on her way down and then start a new ground blockstring when she lands. 
 
This blockstring is a sort of happy medium between the 2B > IAD j.2B and the 2B > 7jc j.C/j.D blockstrings. Waiting until you reach maximum jump height gives a little bit of time to fish out people trying to DP out of the IAD j.2B variation while maintaining your ability to continue pressure. 
Cons:
2B - Unfortunately, the same delay that gives you the ability to bait people trying to DP out of a potential IAD j.2B mixup also gives opponents enough time to safely get out a 2B 
Delayed DP - It's always possible for the opponent to wait and DP once they expect you to do it.
Fuzzy Jump - You get airthrown.
Roll - The large gap lets them roll out no problem.
Synergizes with:
2B > 7jc > IAD Cross Up j.2B
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 2C
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 5D
 
 
5A/2B > 7jc j.C - Video Example
This is  meant to compliment 2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B) and 5A tick throws. Similar to Narukami's 5A>divekick, 5A/2B>jc j.C will  stuff fuzzy jump and upback. Also lets you reset pressure on block, but be wary of how they block it.
Blocking and Frame Advantage:
If they stand and block the j.C before the movement begins, you will be -5, so they can DP you or even just 5A you if you try to continue pressure. If not blocked until after the movement starts, you're +13, so go nuts. Thankfully, most people don't know about this important difference, so they'll keep blocking despite being advantageous. If you notice they're respecting it even when you're minus, you can go for a throw as soon as you land since they won't be in blockstun.
Cons:
2B/DP - all 2Bs and most DPs will stuff this, though it's hard to anti air it on reaction if you properly mix up your options.
Roll - It can be rolled, though again, it's not likely to happen on reaction if you properly mix up your pressure options.
Synergizes with:
5A/2B > 7jc j.D
5A > Throw
2B > 7jc > IAD Cross Up j.2B
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 2C
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 5D
 
 
 
5A/2B > 7jc j.D - Video Example
This is  meant to compliment 2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B) and 5A/2B > 7jc j.C. The j.D will keep you airborne at a safe distance from most anti air attempts and DPs while also letting you reset pressure.
Cons:
Aigis/Yukari/Yukiko 2B - due to being projectiles, you can't outspace them, so this becomes a little more risky as it won't bait their 2Bs.
Rolls - They can roll out and end your pressure.
Large Reversal Supers - ＮＯＷＨＥＲＥ　ＩＳ　ＳＡＦＥ. Something like Atom Smasher, Maziodyne, or S.Lab's bull punch that hits the entire screen or a large part of it will still hit you, so be wary. It's not a common occurrence, but it's important to note the possibility
Synergizes with:
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
5A/2B > 7jc j.C
5A > Throw
2B > 7jc > IAD Cross Up j.2B
 
 
 
5AA > 2B > 5B > 5BB > 2B/Reset Pressure
This blockstring takes advantage of the fact that you can delay 5BB to improve it's frame advantage on block so that its positive enough to reset your pressure. For a complete breakdown of how this blockstring works and its pitfalls, you can read the original post made by Buttface
Delay:
Regardless of how much you delay or don't delay, the opponent always has at least two options to escape. With no delay at all, 5B>5BB is gapless, but 5BB>2B have a gap allowing for a DP AND it will not be a tight enough frametrap to catch rolls. With only a slight delay, while 5B>5BB becomes a tight frametrap that will catch any sort of mash and rolls, there is a gap between 5B>5BB that can be DP'd AND a gap between 5BB>2B that can be DP'd but no longer rolled. With a slightly larger delay, 5B>5BB can still be DP'd and no longer catches rolls, but 5BB>2B becomes a tight blockstring. If delayed as much as possible, the gap between 5B>5BB is large enough that some buttons, such as 5As or 2Bs can be mashed to hit you out of the 5B>5BB gap along with the options of DP and roll, but 5BB becomes so plus that 5BB>5A is a tight blockstring.
Cons:
The delay between 5B and 5BB creates a small gap enough for someone to DP to get out of it. However, if you vary your pressure with the 5B > 214A~D > 5C blockstring, you'll be able to catch and punish people trying to DP out of it and make it more risky for them to use as a defensive option. 
Synergizes with:
5B > 214A~D > 5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.C/Hop j.D 
5B>2C
5B > 5D/2D/Hop j.D
 
 
 
5B > 214A~D > 5C > Hop j.C > Reset Pressure
This blockstring compliments the 5B > delay 5BB blockstring nicely because of its ability to catch people trying to DP out of this blockstring while offerring its own route for resetting pressure. For a complete breakdown of how this blockstring works and its pitfalls, you can read the original post made by Buttface
Cons:
  • Some Reversal Supers and DPs with greater reach can still hit Marie from the distance that you would do the stance cancel > 5C depending on the string you use prior to the cancel. 5AA>5C>5B>214A~D will be safe from Narukami's DP, but 5AA>2B>5B>214A~D will not be.
  • Even while safe from a DP, you will often lose a persona card to the DP, meaning they can also super cancel their DP. Due to the absurd recovery of 5C, it's not always possible to get an optimal punish or run under a DP to stay safe from the super cancel. In 2.0, this is not an issue because of the persona invuln on 5C startup.
  • The stance cancel > 5C creates a large enough gap in your pressure that the opponent can attempt to mash, roll or upback out of the pressure. Much like varying your pressure with this blockstring can be used to increase the risk of people DPing out of 5B > delay 5BB blockstrings, you can use the threat of a frame trap 5B > delay 5BB to increase the risk of people trying to mash, roll or upback out of this blockstring.
Synergizes with:
5B > 5BB 
5B > 214A~D > 5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.D > Reset Pressure
5B > 2C
5B > 5D/2D/Hop j.D
 
 
 
5B > 214A~D > 5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.D > Reset Pressure
Same as above, but with the use of one of Marie's D normals to reset pressure. 5D and 2D will let you go right in, but neither hits entirely right where the opponent is. 5D will cover you if they try to move in, while 2D will cover you if they try to upback. The hop j.D will hit them right where they are, but you have hop landing recovery before you can go in.
Cons:
  • Same as above
Synergizes with:
5B > 5BB 
5B > 214A~D > 5C > Hop j.C > Reset Pressure
5B > 2C
5B > 5D
 
 
 
5BB>OMC
5BB can be OMC'd for a really fast mixup, making this an invaluable tool. You can do 5BB>OMC>j.A>5A for a fast overhead into a low, 5BB>OMC>5A to go straight to the low when they expect the overhead, 5BB>OMC>airdash j.2B>j.B for a delayed double overhead that can safejump some DPs midpressure, and 5BB>OMC>throw to catch them trying to block anything.
Cons:
Everything aside from OMC>j.A or OMC>j.2B>j.B can be DP'd, and several characters can even DP  OMC>j.2B
Costs 50 meter
Synergizes with:
5BB>2B
 
 
 
5AA>OMC
when you OMC 5AA, you are left airborne for a short amount of time, letting you get an extremely low airdash into an unreactable high/low/throw that safejumps most DPs midpressure. 5AA>OMC>airdash>j.B>5A is a perfect frametrap that can safejump any DP besides Kanji's. 5AA>OMC>airdash>5A doesn't safejump, but lets you fake an overhead and hit them low instead. 5AA>OMC>airdash>throw lets you fake any sort of strike and throw them when they expect to block. 5AA>OMC>airdash>j.B>throw will let you throw them when they expect to have to block a low.
Cons:
Costs 50 meter
Only the overhead is a frametrap and a safejump, the low/throw can be rolled or DP'd.
Synergizes with:
5AA > Throw
5AA > Reset pressure
 
 
 
2B > 7jc > IAD Cross Up j.2B
5B>2B happens to create the perfect spacing for an IAD j.2B to crossup while still allowing you to followup with a microdash 5B
Variations:
(5A>2A)5AA>5B>2B>IAD Cross Up j.2B - If they crouch block the entire blockstring
5A>2A>5A>2B>IAD Cross Up j.2B 
5A>5B>2B>IAD Cross Up j.2B
Cons:
Fuzzy Jump will airthrow you out of the airdash.
It can be rolled.
DPs that hit behind like Marie's, Mitsuru's, Yukiko's, or Kanji's will hit you out of it, though forward only DPs like Narukami's or Yosuke's will whiff.
Synergizes with:
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 2C
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 5D
 
 
 
2B > 214A~D 
Stance cancel after 2B. Used to reset pressure in the same ways as the 5B stance cancel.
Cons:
Same as 5B stance cancel, but you're at a closer range so you are at risk of more DPs.
Synergizes with:
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 2C
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 7jc IAD Crossup j.2B
2B > 5D
 
 
 
2B/5B > 2C
Tight frametrap that'll even catch rolls and jumps. Can be spaced in blockstrings to even keep you safe from DPs.(ex: 5AA>2B>5B>2C, 5AA>5B>2B>2C)
Cons:
Can be DP'd at some spacings
If DP'd, a persona card is lost and the opponent can super cancel their DP if they have meter
Synergizes with:
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 7jc IAD Crossup j.2B
5B > 5BB
5B > 214A~D > 5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.C/Hop j.D > Reset Pressure
2B > 5D
 
 
 
5C > delay 2C
Another tight frametrap. Exactly the same as above aside from needing a delay to make it frametrap
Cons:
Same as above.
Synergizes with:
5C > dash cancel
5C > 214A~D
5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.D
 
 
 
5C > 214A~D
Stance cancel of 5C. Used to reset pressure once they respect your options after 5C. When used in pressure properly, the threat of 2C frametrap keeps them from mashing or rolling, allowing you to safely reset pressure. 
Cons:
Same as other stance cancels.
Synergizes with:
5C > dash cancel
5C > delay 2C
5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.D
 
 
 
Sweep > delay 236A
A slightly delayed 236A after sweep will frametrap, allowing you to catch the opponent if they think you're going to try to reset pressure after sweep.
Cons: 
leaves a gap that can be DP'd 
Synergizes with:
Sweep > Throw
Sweep > Reset Pressure
 
 
 
Sweep > Throw
An unconventional tick throw that will catch people off guard once they think your pressure has ended. Use Sweep > delayed 236A to frametrap and stop throw tech attempts.
Cons:
can be mashed, DP'd, or teched with one of the several defensive OSs
Synergizes with:
Sweep > delayed 236A
Sweep > Reset Pressure
 
 
 
5C/2C/5B/2B > 5D/2D/Hop j.D 
All of Marie's grounded normals can be canceled into her D normals to allow her to reset pressure.
When used with all of her other pressure options, you can make the opponent respect a lot of things they could easily get out of if not for the threat of all the other tools Marie possesses.
Cons:
Can be rolled, upbacked, DP'd at certain ranges, or even avoided by running forward.
Synergizes with:
5C > dash cancel
5C > delay 2C
5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.D
2B > 7jc j.C
2B > 7jc j.D
2B > 214A~D
2B > 7jc IAD j.2B > (j.B)
2B > 7jc IAD Crossup j.2B
5B > 5BB
5B > 214A~D > 5C > 5D/2D/Hop j.C/Hop j.D > Reset Pressure
2B > 5D
2B/5B > 2C
 
 
Evil Eye Oki
 
Setting It Up:
Typically, you can set up Evil Eye oki by ending a corner combo in 2C and special cancelling into C Evil Eye (214C)
 
Mix ups/Blockstrings:
There are a few ways to take advantage of Evil Eye oki
  • High/Low Mixup - With these blockstrings, the goal is to keep the opponent blocking until you get a 2B into the blockstring, The detonation of the Evil Eye should keep the opponent in blockstun after 2B while you go for a mixup. You can either go for the previously mentioned 2B > jc IAD j.2B > j.B High mixup or you can gatling into sweep instead for a low. You can also go for 2B > jc into either a low to the ground air dash j.2B > j.B > High or an empty jump low. Here is a sample blockstring developed by Buttface fo this purpose. You can read his original post on the blockstring for more details on how it works and the potential pitfalls: 5A>2A>5A>5AA>5C>5B>2B 
  • Resetting Pressure - In this option, the goal is to keep the opponent blocking long enough that the Evil Eye can detonate automatically and cover the gap between your last blockstring ending and the start of a new one. Here is a video example
  • Run Up Throw+ - This option was already covered outside of the context of Evil Eye oki. The difference between with the Evil Eye oki and without the Evil Eye oki is that the Evil Eye oki can shift the opponent's caution to dealing with the Evil Eye's detonation to cover a mixup or pressure reset and away from more simple mixups, giving it some extra strength as a mixup. 
  • ＵＮＢＬＯＣＫＡＢＬＥ - Yes, that's right, for the cost of a mere 50 SP, you can hit your opponent with an unblockable into 2.3k and a hard j.2B knockdown (albeit the worst knockdown Marie can get) or 4.5k at the cost of another 50 meter. While there is no gapless way in pressure to activate the unblockable, the window in which they can roll is exceedingly small, and if you use this with chocolate oki, you create a true unblockable that can only be escaped with a guard cancel.
 
Dance, Fallen Angels/Present Oki
 
Who doesn't like chocolate?
 
Setting it Up:
You can go for present oki by finishing your combo in a sweep. In 1.1, this usually doesn't happen that often but in 2.0, the addition of a gatling into sweep for 5AAA as well as the reduction of recovery on presents makes it a bit more frequently used. 
 
Mixups/Blockstrings:
After setting up chocolate, you have a few basic options. You can do an empty jump low, forward jump>falling j.A, forward jump>falling j.2B>j.B, empty airdash low, late airdash j.2B>j.B, late airdash j.2B>j.B(w)>5A, throw the opponent before the chocolate triggers, and if you're midscreen, you can roll past them before the chocolate triggers to cross them up
 
In the corner, you can spend 50 meter after they start blocking the chocolate to hit them with an unblockable SB eye detonation.
 
 
Shining Arrows Oki
 
Setting it Up:
This isn't an option that you see very often because it requires 50 meter and Marie to be in Awakening to have access to the super but it is another option that Marie has for oki. Setting it up is straightforward and is as simple as special cancelling an A Run Amok (236A) at the end of a short corner combo as demonstrated in this example
 
Mixups/Blockstrings:
If combo'd into in the corner, you can pull chocolate before they tech, then meaty with 2B+C to allow you to jump cancel into a high/low mixup into serious damage. You can also use the chocolate to set up an unblockable.
 
When used midscreen, you can airdash over and roll through the opponent to cross them up while also hitting them with a high/low mixup. Be wary though, there will always be a gap between the arrows in which they can DP.
 
 
Safe Jumps
 
In 1.1, Marie has 2 safe jumps, allowing her to deny the opponent their wakeup reversals at pretty much every opportunity.
It's important to understand the different ways to safejump, so I'm going to put Bananaken's Safejump OS video here, as some of them, like the roll OS or backdash OS are needed for characters with slow DPs like Adachi or for Margaret's throw DP.
 
j.C safejump
combo ending in 236A > air dash j.C
If j.C is done too early, it will whiff, allowing you to do a sneaky throw when they expect to be blocking j.C
 
Safejumps everything.
 
 
 
j.B safejump
combo ending in 236A > land > IAD j.B - Video Example
combo ending in air hit 2C > forward jump > falling j.B
combo ending in 236236C~A/B/D > IAD j.B 
 
Does not safejump Kanji's DP. Only air hit 2C safejump can safejump Yosuke's DP
Safejump after super does not safejump reversal supers or extremely fast DPs like Yosuke's or Rise's.
 
 
Anti-Fuzzy Jump Blockstrings
 
Fuzzy Jump is a powerful defensive tool but it does have its weaknesses. The goal here is to either create a frame trap that'll hit the opponent out of their jump's start up or after they've jumped since you can't air block in Persona for a certain amount of frames after you've jumped.
 
Here are some blockstrings that aim to do this:
  • 5A/2A > 5C
  • 5A/2B > jc j.C
  • 5A > delayed 5AA 
  • 5A > delayed 2A

 

 

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TD   

TD
Posted

It's always fun to read these. Good work. I like how you put what compliments each mixup. I know some people who know mixups but don't know what to do when it gets countered, so for Marie players this shouldn't be a problem.

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Buttface   

Buttface
Posted

updated the fuck out of the OP to add all the stuff that was missing

good to have all this stuff in one place

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Buttface   

Buttface
Posted

only if you do the j.2B as soon as possible, meaning it will just whiff in their face if they don't fuzzy jump

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