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[CPEX] Izayoi General / Q&A - "DO IT FOR HER"

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Okay, kind of trying to change the game here. I made a new thread, hopefully that thread can facilitate discussion. I think its a very important thing that people talk about, and where most players issues can be addressed. Please share! I moved the old video thread to the archive (i never updated that thing anyways) and would like for Izayoi vs X char videos to be posted in specific matchup threads (anyone who peeps a video can help me with that).

 

If you think a specific video is worth talking about, post it in the thread (along with the matchup thread if you want, but nobody is looking) and we can talk about it! But mainly, i want to remove clutter from the video thread, and instead focus more on quality discussion over quantity of videos. This way, people reading the thread can take understanding and actually learn something from reading the forum (this is crazy, right?) instead of looking at a wall of videos. Removing clutter can really help people looking to learn a thing or two, and there is no better place to talk theory than a video thread, with constant video reference for said theory.

 

It's kind of extreme, but I want to see how this works out and i hope you guys are understanding enough to help me out with it. I've had a bit of a crisis concerning the strength of the american scene and how to help it develop, and this is how im taking it out. on you guys. talk. do things.

 

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/11074-cpex-izayoi-video-posting-discussion-thread/

 

if anything, ill be updating the first post with a light match analysis (like the one at the end of the post) for good matches, but I won't really get into nitty gritty specifics unless people ask or something.

 

to clarify, i dont only want high level match analysis. I want everything! It'd be great if you feel like you need help so you post a video with your take of what happened in the match. But please, write your heart out! Give a lot to work with. That kind of thing is great, theres a lot of direction and discussion/progression on that helps other players to even read, so yeah! Participation is key, the more people the more useful it becomes for everyone.

Edited by skd

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I moved the old video thread to the archive (i never updated that thing anyways)

 

 

Here's the main source of most of the problems you're trying to fix right now. The main reason there is very little discussion around here is that there is no content to discuss because the video thread is as barren as the Sahara Desert. No current players to look at, no optimal combos, no tech, no nothing. Videos are the basis of every new learning attempt and if there is no content, no learning gets done. It's much faster to watch a video of ... "insert top Izayoi player here"(heck i don't even KNOW who the top players are right now because of NO VIDEOS) to learn how to play than read through endless pages of combo theory and whatnot. Also, there is absolutely no discussion about how to play the character, all discussion is always directed at combo execution which is basically floor level of fighting game skills.

 

 

 

If you think a specific video is worth talking about, post it in the thread (along with the matchup thread if you want, but nobody is looking) and we can talk about it!

 

 

So, how are we supposed to discuss videos when there's no videos to look at? Every worthwhile Izayoi video should absolutely be posted in a video thread separate from the discussion thread, otherwise there is nothing to discuss. Also, there is one thing that really should be avoided is posting combo videos. These are the most useless and even misdirecting learning tools to ever exist in the FGC.

 

There needs to be a base of video information so that we can learn from and criticize. You can't expect people to analyse Renaissance paintings without having access to a repository of Renaissance paintings, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

Aside from that though, good initiative!

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Here's the main source of most of the problems you're trying to fix right now. The main reason there is very little discussion around here is that there is no content to discuss because the video thread is as barren as the Sahara Desert. No current players to look at, no optimal combos, no tech, no nothing. Videos are the basis of every new learning attempt and if there is no content, no learning gets done. It's much faster to watch a video of ... "insert top Izayoi player here"(heck i don't even KNOW who the top players are right now because of NO VIDEOS) to learn how to play than read through endless pages of combo theory and whatnot. Also, there is absolutely no discussion about how to play the character, all discussion is always directed at combo execution which is basically floor level of fighting game skills.

 

I'd be hard pressed to agree. Other chracter subforums suffer from the same issue despite having heavily populated threads. There are simply too many videos to cover, and to be frank a majority of them don't leave you with much to talk about.

 

There is no point in having so much clutter. There is no point in having a hundred videos if you can learn everything essential there is to see in them from ten. There are no combo videos, no tech, etc that comes out of Japan. Honestly the development for this character in Japan is seriously weak, so all we really get are match videos of Chin running strong neutral but not much else. It's more important that we convey how to extract that information from those matches.

 

Besides, the thread IS supposed to discuss how to play the character, if anything. I am trying to discuss the points to which these videos should be utilized properly, and remove clutter in the process. There is no content because the videos are nigh useless to a majority of players since they cant properly break them down, and there is no content because the videos dont offer much even to the trained eye.

 

even then, learning to play by watching X top player takes a bit to start off from, and i'm sure most of the nuance is lost. and that kind of developmental ability gained from understanding things from the ground up is so important, and thats the kind of thing that can be conveyed through a post much more easily. thats the kind of thing that keeps improvement going beyond watching videos (which we HONESTLY barely have anything good of for this character). I dont want players who can just xcopy and then have to go figure out why everything does or doesnt work. That takes a lot of time, video discussion definitely makes this process way faster.

 

Like i could make so much content about ideal pressure structure and how to fight top level defensive reactions and option cover but it would be so pointless because nobody is ready to implement that kind of thing, nobody fights against people who play like that often. Hell, nobody would even understand what i was doing without explanation or raw experience (which almost nobody is going to get because the scene is so fragmented, so we need to work with this). There are no actual, visible cues on the kind of option cover that goes on. What good is watching that stuff going to do? Its so obscure, and the actual things that reveal that meta dont actually show up in the match. There is real ambiguity in match videos to the untrained eye.

 

tl;dr we actually just dont have useful content for the character beyond specific match videos. If people knew how to look at videos, we wouldnt need all these newer videos anyways (which really dont have anything new in them). People would be able to figure out how to play already.

 

So, how are we supposed to discuss videos when there's no videos to look at? Every worthwhile Izayoi video should absolutely be posted in a video thread separate from the discussion thread, otherwise there is nothing to discuss. Also, there is one thing that really should be avoided is posting combo videos. These are the most useless and even misdirecting learning tools to ever exist in the FGC.

 

There needs to be a base of video information so that we can learn from and criticize. You can't expect people to analyse Renaissance paintings without having access to a repository of Renaissance paintings, it just doesn't make any sense.

 

Aside from that though, good initiative!

 

ideally, the forum is not a place for a video dump, but we don't have a repository like keeponrock.in or homing cancel database. I'd kind of resolved on having a video database thread linked within the first post, but presenting it as a forefront is not good. The matchup forums are currently useless which is pretty...iffy. Hopefully dropping match videos and keeping them separated like that makes it easier to discuss on a light level, but the emphasis of the thread i want to push is deep analysis.

 

The point is for people to submit analysis which might or might not be correct, but the process of scrutinizing that analysis, questioning things, and refining is what people need to see and experience. Those are direct examples on "what to take from videos". And as I said before, if people knew how to watch videos, they would probably have figured out how to play already.

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But that's my point, a video dump thread is a starting point to have a discussion in the discussion thread; where do you suggest we take material from if there's no video thread?

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-snip-

Just thought I would drop by and see were going on in this thread...... Bickering over where to place stuff.

I would like to state the a huge turnoff is when people have a conversation with no one qouted then it's like I'm reading a conversation and not useful info.

Watching a video is really good idea but sometimes even when I see the someone win I can't really dissect why they won. I really only see one of two things 1.)Really nice Mix up 2.)really nice combo.

Having Mix up and combos are nice but though process. Situation assesment. Option selects, descission making, Matchup knowledge.( some of these are one in the same but it's pretty broad) but yeah I think sometimes america thinks sexy combos is I you need to be good which is an awful way to think)

Also another turnoff on any type of forum is someone using annoyingly large and hard to understand without repeated use words.: Convey,Scrutnizing,Ambiguity,Obscure,Repository.... There's more.... But come on and we all are pretty smart but when I want to understand a conversation reading bullshit like this is tiring. But I do agree with you an organized forum is the way to go just be a little less of a dictionary ok!!!!

Edited by skd
condensing!

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I do agree, bickering over where to place stuff is kind of silly and is definitely not the look i want to give off!

 

We can pull match videos from where we always did. Youtube (Jourdal) nico, or (my prayers have been answered) this pretty intuitive database, despite being in japanese. http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/BBCP/index.html

 

Izayoi in particular has videos here, and theyre all very much up to date, i will be linking this in the OP of that thread.

 

http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/BBCP/BBCP_IZ.html

 

on that note, would anyone like to take a crack at breaking down the match listed in this post?

 

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/11074-cpex-izayoi-video-posting-analysis-discussion-thread/?p=928867

 

this whole thing is useless if im the only one doing all the analysis, i dont really need the help ;_;

Edited by skd

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We can pull match videos from where we always did

 

Considering how newcomers will absolutely not know where to go look for videos, and more regular players even, that's where a video dump thread finds its usefulness. There's a lot of stuff on horibuna but nico is fucking cancer and trying to look at matches with it is VERY tedious. I used to update the video thread a lot with matches I found of interest but apparently just posting video links wasn't satisfactory, so I stopped doing it, because people didn't deserve my time. A video thread is still a very important learning tool and it is a mistake to get rid of it. In fact, more effort should be put to keep it as updated as possible.

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Why are we arguing with the best NA izayoi............... It's like you people seek argument.

But I do get what your saying. I like a video thread as much as the next person but what skd is trying to say is that video threads haven't helped America yet. So let's axe it. Pick out a select few videos maybe 3 a week and dissect them that way everyone can learn at a higher level than just "hey cool combo".

Btw skd I would love to dissect the videos but I don't play her........just my bae Mu-12, and Tsubaki/Amane

I like what skd is trying to do. Lets all agree blazblue Will be at evo again. we need to get our shit together.

On the other hand what I don't like about the top players in the afgc community is that top players only associate with top players. You never have a top player offer to ft5 someone who isn't "known" and sure those players trying to break out of good netplayer to- tournament random to- top player could ask but we all know that shot is intimidating. So we all just play with people on our level and we never get much better. And there cotinues to be only 20 or so good players.

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Why are we arguing with the best NA izayoi

 

 

It's not because you're the best at something that you're necessarily the best at knowing how to teach it. Those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

 

Basically, all my argument is summed up in:

 

 

A video thread is still a very important learning tool and it is a mistake to get rid of it.

 

 

Everything else SKD is trying to do here is a step in the right direction.

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If anything he would be the most qualified to teach blazblue lmao

I actually do not get your complaint. It's still a video thread but less clutter and more A N A L Y S I S 

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I'm not sure what being the best NA Izayoi player (maybe even JP since he beat Dogura and Dora) has to do with forum moderation and organization? It's not even an issue of teaching or not.



It's not like I personally ever go to video threads (or watch videos, period) but I'm also not sure trying to break videos down by matchup is going to be any better. Not all videos are cleanly edited one-shot "Izayoi vs. X" stuff.



Worst case scenario you leave the video dump thread up and go in and organize it from time to time. I don't think it'll make a huge difference either way and it'll probably be less work overall.

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So guys, what do you think of the new Izayoi as of the latest loketest now that we have SKD's info?

New D saber sounds retarded strong, definitely a game changer. However the omission of astrea after strike fall seems like it will HURT our corner carry. In cpex we can use it do get them to the corner off pretty much any random hit anywhere. Now I'm not sure if we can have the reward that we had from GA AA hit.

Loss of 6A gatlings sounds like a damage/confirm nerf. I guess we're back to all-day 3C confirms now but 5C's small range makes us unable to confirm that from 5B.

new 6C sounds dope though. Neutral on block and jump/special cancelable sounds like it will help in our pressure.

crusade seraphim not being wiff cancelable into astrea seems like it can hurt our neutral just a bit, but who cares when you have the new d saber!

6B comboable into air specials sounds freakin silly! It may as well be extremely easy for us to build stocks in normal mode now, not to mention the mixup enhancement.

 

overall I really like what I'm hearing except from the strike fall > astrea nerf which has me a bit worried. I hope these changes stay as is!

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I really like all the new air options, I really want to see that new j.B.

Overall I really like all the changes going on, Hopefully these changes open up some new interesting combo routes.

The Strike Fall > Astrea Nerf sounds bad, but SKD also mentioned that the opponent lands closer after Strike Fall, so you might be able to do something like 5a->5c->623B->D or 5a->5c->236C->6D for some extra corner carry.

Edited by Trace_L

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Not really sure if this warranted a new thread so I'll just post here. Yesterday, I got a chance to play CF at Round 1 and here's my thoughts on Izayoi for anybody interested.

-Aerial Crusade Seraphim (j.236B,C/j623B) are pretty nifty as SKD mentioned previously. Like the original grounded versions that they derive from, j236B cuts downwards, j236C horizontally and j623B upwards. They give her additional options to control space and they're quite fast as well. Also, while I wasn't able to really test this out myself, I figure they should give her a way to bait and punish those who like to mash 5A if Izayoi approaches them with her Gain Art dash. Take care not to whiff them obviously. I personally like that they stall her falling momentum for a bit as well.

-As all of you know, she has a new j.B which is a horizontal kick. Covers a good amount of space in front of her so it should make a nice air to air. That should also make it so she doesn't have to approach as close as she did with the old j.B when hover dashing towards her opponent? Also not sure if it's slower or faster than her old j.B but overall, I personally don't miss the old j.B lol

-Speaking of new moves, I love the new 236D/j236D as well. Still works the same as SKD mentioned in his writeup. The space coverage is really great at the cost of the sabers not putting her opponent is super long hitstun/blockstun but I'll take it. OD version is even more dumb, I can only imagine the setups with this move... 

-As for combos, since Astraea launches the opponent higher now, old Gain Art routes obviously won't work, sample combos I was doing were:

Midscreen: 5B > 236C~6D > sj.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > j.623B~D*

Corner: 5B > 236C~6D > 623C~D

*Seems using j.236B and j.236C in the combo are legitimate alternatives as well? Recent Japanese match vids show players using j.623B though.

 

-Also, Strike Fall still bounces but you're right in front of your opponent when you land so you can follow it up with something 5B 5C. How much you can depends on how the combo is prorated; didn't really mess around with it that much tbh.

-Using GA 2C on crouching opponents on combos seems to kill the combo early? Probably seems to be an effect of CF's combo rate being even lower in general? Whatever the case, I'll personally miss it since I used it to bump up my damage a bit. Also heard that it doesn't really work in corner combos as well since the second hit "launches" the opponent higher? Haven't really seen it myself though.

-Being able to finally get some sort of reward off of Normal Hit 6B is nice, thanks to aerial Crusade Seraphim. (j.236B in particular) Classic BnB to go for in Normal Mode is 6B > j.236B > 623B. Haven't really experimented in Gain Art mode nor what combos are possible in CH 6B

-As for specific normals. Almost everything seemed the same except 3C and 6A. 3C slides her forward a bit as SKD mentioned before so that's cool. Couldn't really find a use for 6A since it doesn't force crouching anymore, makes me wonder if CF version of this move is the most useless one yet lol.

 

Well, that's it for now. I'm not sure when's the next time I'll get a chance to play CF but personally, I don't mind spending a bit more time on CPE since the game doesn't really feel that different to me other than subtle differences?

BONUS: ... 236C~6D > Astral still works despite 6D launching higher lol

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2 hours ago, Ichipoo said:

Not really sure if this warranted a new thread so I'll just post here. Yesterday, I got a chance to play CF at Round 1 and here's my thoughts on Izayoi for anybody interested.

-Aerial Crusade Seraphim (j.236B,C/j623B) are pretty nifty as SKD mentioned previously. Like the original grounded versions that they derive from, j236B cuts downwards, j236C horizontally and j623B upwards. They give her additional options to control space and they're quite fast as well. Also, while I wasn't able to really test this out myself, I figure they should give her a way to bait and punish those who like to mash 5A if Izayoi approaches them with her Gain Art dash. Take care not to whiff them obviously. I personally like that they stall her falling momentum for a bit as well.

-As all of you know, she has a new j.B which is a horizontal kick. Covers a good amount of space in front of her so it should make a nice air to air. That should also make it so she doesn't have to approach as close as she did with the old j.B when hover dashing towards her opponent? Also not sure if it's slower or faster than her old j.B but overall, I personally don't miss the old j.B lol

-Speaking of new moves, I love the new 236D/j236D as well. Still works the same as SKD mentioned in his writeup. The space coverage is really great at the cost of the sabers not putting her opponent is super long hitstun/blockstun but I'll take it. OD version is even more dumb, I can only imagine the setups with this move... 

-As for combos, since Astraea launches the opponent higher now, old Gain Art routes obviously won't work, sample combos I was doing were:

Midscreen: 5B > 236C~6D > sj.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > j.623B~D*

Corner: 5B > 236C~6D > 623C~D

*Seems using j.236B and j.236C in the combo are legitimate alternatives as well? Recent Japanese match vids show players using j.623B though.

 

-Also, Strike Fall still bounces but you're right in front of your opponent when you land so you can follow it up with something 5B 5C. How much you can depends on how the combo is prorated; didn't really mess around with it that much tbh.

-Using GA 2C on crouching opponents on combos seems to kill the combo early? Probably seems to be an effect of CF's combo rate being even lower in general? Whatever the case, I'll personally miss it since I used it to bump up my damage a bit. Also heard that it doesn't really work in corner combos as well since the second hit "launches" the opponent higher? Haven't really seen it myself though.

-Being able to finally get some sort of reward off of Normal Hit 6B is nice, thanks to aerial Crusade Seraphim. (j.236B in particular) Classic BnB to go for in Normal Mode is 6B > j.236B > 623B. Haven't really experimented in Gain Art mode nor what combos are possible in CH 6B

-As for specific normals. Almost everything seemed the same except 3C and 6A. 3C slides her forward a bit as SKD mentioned before so that's cool. Couldn't really find a use for 6A since it doesn't force crouching anymore, makes me wonder if CF version of this move is the most useless one yet lol.

 

Well, that's it for now. I'm not sure when's the next time I'll get a chance to play CF but personally, I don't mind spending a bit more time on CPE since the game doesn't really feel that different to me other than subtle differences?

BONUS: ... 236C~6D > Astral still works despite 6D launching higher lol

I like to add to this, I also hada  chance to go to round one in so-cal and play Izayoi and there a few things i can confirm some things in this post.

First off her j.B is better and the old one wont be missed but you can also use J.b to cross up. 

As far as her corner combo that involves 2.C, Valkyrie and knocks up too high to follow with 2.C and 2.C itself does seem to have it little suction property to it meaning after the first hit if you hit with it on the edge it knock the opponent back up, 2.C also seems to tax the combo rate a bit more but this may be the combo rate nerf game wide that is in affect.

All of her Air Crusade seraphims as mentioned above are good spacing tools, they are a decent approach tool for those that think they can A mash or wait to anit air you. seraphims seem to serve as an ender as noir edge did following up with strike fall afterwards, I have not found any other use in combos for it although my time was limited to test this.

her 3C does slide forward a bit and still auto techs unless you immediately 236.B which will still force an auto tech afterwards.

Her 6.A does not knock back as it once did and does not link from 5.B or 5.C any longer

Her 6.B seems to have faster hit recovery although its slight, aegis blade also has faster hit recovery.

as mentioned above most of her usual BnB's in gain art mode no longer work, I need to test this again once i get the chance to see what is optimal. 

over all she feels in-between cp and cpex, she feels to be a high tier character still too.

 

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hey guys, I've been thinking real hard about dropping amane to a sub and want to try my hand at izayoi. Could you guys give me a couple names to look into that have match videos out. Preferably the most recent iteration of her, I'm playing on ps4, I think it's on 2.0

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We got CF combo videos guys: https://twitter.com/peugeotk/status/669200125349130240

In the tweet there's two videos, one is for Normal Mode combos and the other is Gain Art combos.

Most Normal Mode combos from CPEX still work and I can speak from experience for this, (sans corner combos though?)

As for Gain Art mode, due to Astraea's and GA 2C's new properties, midscreen combo damage is lower than before it seems (probably since you can't do something like ... 236B > 214B > 5C > 2C(1) > 3C > 236C~6D ...), but her corner damage seems fine (3.9k off of 5B starter for only 2 stocks and no meter).

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4 hours ago, Ichipoo said:

We got CF combo videos guys: https://twitter.com/peugeotk/status/669200125349130240

In the tweet there's two videos, one is for Normal Mode combos and the other is Gain Art combos.

Most Normal Mode combos from CPEX still work and I can speak from experience for this, (sans corner combos though?)

As for Gain Art mode, due to Astraea's and GA 2C's new properties, midscreen combo damage is lower than before it seems (probably since you can't do something like ... 236B > 214B > 5C > 2C(1) > 3C > 236C~6D ...), but her corner damage seems fine (3.9k off of 5B starter for only 2 stocks and no meter).

Noticed from the GA one one of the double phorizor enders the 2nd phorizor did 247 and i believe the minimum currently is 660 so Im guessing either phorizor dmg went down, or less or no min dmg on supers. 

wonder if midscreen GA N starter>stuff>236B>214B>5C>2C(1)>6B>j.236B>623B~D works out also if there's difference in air seraphims outside of angle of the attack if not then maybe a way to avoid smp is just cycle through them if theres multiple air seraphims in a combo if there is a difference in how they get launched or untech etc. im really curious 

also another cf combo vid wooo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKJz92rSgI&feature=youtu.be

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On 11/27/2015, 5:26:43, MattyD315 said:

hey guys, I've been thinking real hard about dropping amane to a sub and want to try my hand at izayoi. Could you guys give me a couple names to look into that have match videos out. Preferably the most recent iteration of her, I'm playing on ps4, I think it's on 2.0

Since CF, just came out, there's not a lot of footage of her yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSqCehx3464

https://youtu.be/jT4HCfjYSxU?t=31m53s

 

And it doesn't hurt to look up CPEX videos as well, notable players include SKD and Chin respectively:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTKxmzrxYE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APU5WhLzoRU

 

26 minutes ago, RoanYagyu said:

Noticed from the GA one one of the double phorizor enders the 2nd phorizor did 247 and i believe the minimum currently is 660 so Im guessing either phorizor dmg went down, or less or no min dmg on supers. 

wonder if midscreen GA N starter>stuff>236B>214B>5C>2C(1)>6B>j.236B>623B~D works out also if there's difference in air seraphims outside of angle of the attack if not then maybe a way to avoid smp is just cycle through them if theres multiple air seraphims in a combo if there is a difference in how they get launched or untech etc. im really curious 

also another cf combo vid wooo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKJz92rSgI&feature=youtu.be

The whole GA 2C(1) > 6B sequence has me wondering if it's possible to loop it somehow, especially off of Fatal Counter.

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So from what I can see, the major changes are:

- 6B now special-cancelable (I assume it can go into A Saber as well)

- 6A doesn't force crouch anymore and can't be gatlinged into

- Noir Edge is gone, replaced with air Crusades

- Astraea floats much higher on hit

- NM 3C has a slide forward like NM 5C

- D Saber is now 3x small sabers (5 in OD) instead of one big one

- j.B is now a big horizontal kick instead of whatever the current j.B is supposed to be

- Can't go straight into Astraea without Crusade (?)

- The usual frame and proration changes

Did I miss anything major? Cause it sounds like her neutral game and options got a ton of buffs if true, even if her combo damage might have gone down a bit. I'm interested to see how this goes down lol.

Sent from my LG-H950 using Tapatalk

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Pretty much SKD's initial write up for Izayoi when he was in Japan covered most if not all of her changes. Me and Blueriku's experiences with her at Round 1 simply confirm those changes.

And you can still perform Astraea without Crusade Seraphim.

 

Also, I recently happened upon footage of an Izayoi player who frequently uses Trans-Am. Really interesting stuff, I'm pretty sure these are things Izayoi was able to do in CPEX but the bits can turn an opponent's Burst attempt into a GCOD (which really compliments moveset since it can apparently cover GCOD pretty well), make GA 3C safe on block, cross under setups, etc. I just love the potential to this and I hope people really explore it in this version especially since it doesn't use up stocks/stars anymore.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/so27700582?ref=search_key_video

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/so27700589?ref=search_key_video

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/so27700592?ref=search_key_video

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/so27700595?ref=search_key_video

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/so27700599?ref=search_key_video

 

Also SKD, not sure if you'll read this but think we can have a CF Izayoi thread to discuss these changes and whatnot with the posts relating to her new CF version to be moved there? I probably should have made it myself when I first reported on her CF changes and additions now that I think about it but no harm done.

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