[CPEX] Kagura vs. Jin

[MikelAL93]

Discuss the Kagura vs. Jin matchup here.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Though it should be common knowledge but learn to IB 6C so you can react to possible follow-ups from it.

6C > 6B : IB 6C and you can 5A CH him from 6B.  CH 5A > 6C > 6DA > 3C > 6DC > 2DB for around 2.3K and respectable corner carry midscreen.

6C > 6D: IB 6C and you can actually throw him.  Do not attempt other actions because even if you hit him with 5A / 5B you will still get hit by the ice and lose in that exchange.

6C > 5D: This is unpunishable, 5D is too fast to even 5A and on block Jin can chose to either dash forward or do a special move like 236A.  While this is the safest option for Jin he doesn't get frame advantage like the 6B and 6D.  You might be able to [2]8C it but then you can't IB if you want to get the charge.  Guard Cancel OD the 6C can potentially allow you invul through the 5D, not sure if Jin gets options from 5D on whiff.

Other things to note:

Jin 623C/D can be beaten by 6DA with its invul (and be CH 6DA) but be careful as if the Jin choses to jump on wake-up you will get punished.

Avoid using 6DC as an approach since Jin will primarily only be doing air ice swords to zone and 6DC on whiff will put you in a bad place as you'll like end under Jin for him to come down with j.2C.

[-Seo]

You might be able to [2]8C it but then you can't IB if you want to get the charge.

 

If you slide the stick from 1 to 2 and back, you can IB while retaining charge. Very important to learn this.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Noted, I'll lab time that.

[Moy_X7]

6C > 5D

 

Just dropping by to say that 6C > 5D is not a possible gatling and most competent Jins will rarely use 6C during block strings and very rarely during neutral. If a Jin goes for a 6C, it's usually because they expected a 5C CH or a 5C to tag a croucher and they auto-piloted into 6C.  

[mAc Chaos]

If you slide the stick from 1 to 2 and back, you can IB while retaining charge. Very important to learn this.

Does a 1 input not count for charge?

[Moy_X7]

It does, as long as you don't let go off 2 (crouching) then you'll retain the charge even if you go for a 3 or a 1 input (Plat's 2[8]C from experience). 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I'll have to double check that...what string was I testing that ended with 5D?

Wiki does say that 6C > 5D isn't a gatling so that's my mistake.

...

His 5B is -6 on block?  That move feels better than that on block...was it always that negative?

[Moy_X7]

Used to be 0 before CP. 

 

It might be -6 but that's not a free punish since Jin can always just cancel into something else and frame trap you. That's why sometimes you'll see Jins reset pressure with it, even though it's so negative on block. 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I'm gonna need to double check frame data on things...


Okay.  Reading off the wiki...

Things that gatling into 6A (overhead): 5A, 2A, 5B

Things that are jump cancelable on block: 5A, 2A, 5C, 2C

So based on this Jin cannot use 6A as an overhead once he uses 5C or 2C in strings, but he is able to jump cancel them on block.

Jin also cannot gatling into 6A from 2B if he has already used 5B in his string already.

All ground normals besides 6A, 6B, and 6C Jin can cancel into 5D which can be special canceled as well.

Knowing available gatling options helps control the mixup even just a little hopefully.

 

[Moy_X7]

2B > 6A doesn't work at all, the only possible gatlings into 6A are 5A/2A > 6A and 5B > 6A. 

 

It's worth nothing that 6B is 0 on IB, so you can push buttons on him if he decides to continue pressure after an IB'd 6B. 6A is also punishable on block, just throwing it out there because I see people block it and not punish on time lol. 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I referred to 2B being able to gatling into 6A only if he is still able to gatling into 5B.  2B > 5B > 6A 

Dude still has forever to hitconfirm crouching opponents into 6C...

6B being only 0 on IB puts it into a guess mash:

 Both Jin and Kagura's 2A are 7 frame start-up

Jin's 5A is 6 frame start-up (5B is 7 frame) while Kagura's is 5 frame start-up.

depending on pushback from 6B...some situational situations can occur.  All these are as if both players inputted on the first frame.

Both attempt to 5A = If Kagura can reach Jin then he should actually CH him due to have a frame faster 5A.

Both attempt to 2A = they trade?  Range dependent on who might have more reach.

Kagura attempts to 5A while Jin 2A = Kagura's 5A will whiff while Jin will hit Kagura

Kagura attempts to 2A while Jin 5B = Both start on the same frame but Jin's 5B likely has more reach and if it hits Kagura then crouching opponent confirm into 6C

One side or the other mashes a reversal = the other person either pressed a buttons and got hit or didn't and blocked.

All in all it seems to be better to IB C moves that Jin would attempt to go into 6B to keep pressure and check him with a 5A as even 6B on IB Jin seems to still be at the advantage in most cases.