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Kinkuli

[CPEX] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.3 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

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Thanks for the response. 

I did some looking around and found out that there isn't any official frame data like you said. I guess I'm just wondering if I can use it and be ok. You mentioned for example that CA is more minus. Are there any other notable/glaring  changes? Obviously hard numbers are out of the question. 

 

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6 hours ago, Cross said:

Thanks for the response. 

I did some looking around and found out that there isn't any official frame data like you said. I guess I'm just wondering if I can use it and be ok. You mentioned for example that CA is more minus. Are there any other notable/glaring  changes? Obviously hard numbers are out of the question. 

 

If I recall correctly from his changes, they increased the recovery of his 2C and the wiki seems to not have updated on that as well. Similarly, the startup of Sentinel in CPEX seems to be noticeably longer (at least in my opinion). Growler also starts up slightly quicker iirc. There might be more, but those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

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3 hours ago, tresmigistus said:

If I recall correctly from his changes, they increased the recovery of his 2C and the wiki seems to not have updated on that as well. Similarly, the startup of Sentinel in CPEX seems to be noticeably longer (at least in my opinion). Growler also starts up slightly quicker iirc. There might be more, but those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Thanks! I'll keep those changes in mind along with the CA change Kinkuli mentioned. 

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well if we're talking about cpex changes: valiant combo-properties changed, gustaf staggers on hit, 6A doesn't wallbounce as far, 2D is a lot better

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Sorry to bother you guys, but is 2D actually +2 on block now? everytime ive tried to press 5A afterwards, i get counter-hit for it XD

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4 hours ago, MangoBlackTea said:

Sorry to bother you guys, but is 2D actually +2 on block now? everytime ive tried to press 5A afterwards, i get counter-hit for it XD

I believe it is +2 in this version. However, you're most likely getting counter-hit because 5A starts up in 6 frames and therefore 2D > 5A isn't a true blockstring with there being a 4-frame gap in between (if I did my math correctly) and if they instant block the gap will be even bigger (as instant blocking makes you recover 3-frames faster, it'd make it a 7-frame gap I think). So I think the best option after a blocked 2D would be to backdash and possibly fish for something with a distanced 5C.

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9 hours ago, Kinkuli said:

You can also 6A if they just keep mashing. Works like wonders :v:

This. The best way to blow up mashing opponents during pressure.

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this might be semi off topic but i posted in the critique thread almost two weeks ago and no one has responded. can someone give them a watch and help me out please? and to keep this on topic, doesn't 6a get armor late in the start up? wouldn't 5a still beat it, even after 2d or gustav?

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If they didn't IB gustaf and you are pointblank just push 5A or if you think they will respect then 5D/crossup/etc. UNLESS you think they might reversal then you technically could 6A but just blocking or BDing is more safer. 

Wiki lists 6A body invuls starting from 7th frame so if you do it after 2D (+2) you should be ok even if opponent has 5f 5A. 

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I have some questions on how to use Azrael more effectivley.

I'm aware his general gameplan is to attempt to get weakpoints do lots of damage.

I just have some more specific questions to use him correctly.

  •  Is his neutral generally considered subpar? He does have a few long range pokes but they are somewhat slow on startup and recovery. 
  • What are ways to do better in neutral with him?
  •  Speaking of which what are his best pokes outside 2A (close and low) and 5C (mid-ish range)?
  •  Is his 5B and 6B considered his best anti-airs?
  •  I know the basic links to get high/low weakpoint on hit (5B > 2C > 6D or 3D). Are there any weakpoint attacks that you can use in neutral or links well?
  • He mostly wants to be in close to your opponent to scare them with your scary mixups and damage. Sometimes the problem is getting to that point. What are some tips to mix them up well to get in besides teleport dashes, teleport dash > jump/air dash, j.B approach, etc.
  •  What's generally his most consistent high and low weakpoint to use to attack (not to set up the weakpoint)? For Neutral and for combos/links? 
  •  His 2A has a much startup than most characters so you cant really mash out of close range pressure. outside maybe 5A. What are some tools Az can use to get people away from you when they are pressuring you besides maybe Counter Assault?
  •  Are any of his specials actually worth throwing out during neutral? I noticed Gustav and Sentinel are + on block.
  •  If you already have just one weakpoint on a character, is it generally better to try to go for a weakpoint attack on it, or try to get two weakpoints to make Az's mixup scarier?
  •  Can Growler Field be used as a situational reversal or anti-air? Or is it better to very rarely/never use it all?
  •  Are there any normals (ground or air) that aren't really worth using much at all? In particularly I'm having trouble finding use for 6A, 6C and j.2C.

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17 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:
  •  Is his neutral generally considered subpar? He does have a few long range pokes but they are somewhat slow on startup and recovery. 
  • What are ways to do better in neutral with him?
  •  Speaking of which what are his best pokes outside 2A (close and low) and 5C (mid-ish range)?
  •  Is his 5B and 6B considered his best anti-airs?
  •  I know the basic links to get high/low weakpoint on hit (5B > 2C > 6D or 3D). Are there any weakpoint attacks that you can use in neutral or links well?
  • He mostly wants to be in close to your opponent to scare them with your scary mixups and damage. Sometimes the problem is getting to that point. What are some tips to mix them up well to get in besides teleport dashes, teleport dash > jump/air dash, j.B approach, etc.
  •  What's generally his most consistent high and low weakpoint to use to attack (not to set up the weakpoint)? For Neutral and for combos/links? 
  •  His 2A has a much startup than most characters so you cant really mash out of close range pressure. outside maybe 5A. What are some tools Az can use to get people away from you when they are pressuring you besides maybe Counter Assault?
  •  Are any of his specials actually worth throwing out during neutral? I noticed Gustav and Sentinel are + on block.
  •  If you already have just one weakpoint on a character, is it generally better to try to go for a weakpoint attack on it, or try to get two weakpoints to make Az's mixup scarier?
  •  Can Growler Field be used as a situational reversal or anti-air? Or is it better to very rarely/never use it all?
  •  Are there any normals (ground or air) that aren't really worth using much at all? In particularly I'm having trouble finding use for 6A, 6C and j.2C.

IMO his neutral is good enough for a character specializing in close-range combat. (Well, I'd take it over non-Level 2 Heat Bullet's any day....)

Standing C and Gustaf Buster (qcf+A) are his main mid-range tools. Up close, I mostly use crouching A and standing B.

Dash -> jump cancel Gustaf Buster or Tiger Magnum (qcf+C) can be used to cover distance and as a side-switch mix-up at close range.

In the air, I tend towards jumping B, jumping d+D and jumping d+C (mostly to cut my jump arc short).

As for using Drive (weakpoint) attacks in neutral, standing D is fast enough to use when you have a minor frame advantage, and f+D/df+D are effective for okizeme/roll catching. Jumping d+D can cross up and lead to combos (like a normal jump-in move). Once in a long while you may want to throw in the low-hitting Hornet Bunker (qcb+D) as a surprise move (by itself or after the qcf+C).

To apply one or two weakpoints? That depends on how confident you are that you will be able to land two-three hits in succession (considering the opponent's character, playstyle and Burst gauge), and to what degree your opponent's composure is affected by double weakpoints. Of course, if a single-weakpoint combo will finish the opponent, or if your weakpoint's duration is about to expire, you should use that weakpoint.

Standing B and f+B are his main anti-airs (f+A may also be useful).

Azrael's backdash is excellent for escaping pressure and creating openings to counterattack. When cornered, though, he may have to rely on his Counter Assault (which I find more reliable than the qcbx2+D Scud Punishment) and good reads to teleport dash through the opponent (which is something of a high risk, high reward tactic).

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16 hours ago, umgogo said:

Once in a long while you may want to throw in the low-hitting Hornet Bunker (qcb+D) as a surprise move (by itself or after the qcf+C).

ONLY time you want to do this is when you have meter and even then just don't that meter is useful somewhere else most of the time. Anyone worth their salt will block it and punish you. Same with Valiant. They are not there for mixups, they are combo tools. 

Azrael neutral is not that good honestly. 5C and Gustaf are your main tools for sure, but gustaf in itself is a HUGE risk which can lead into punish and into a KD most likely and we don't want that now do we. So use it sparingly. His neutral mostly is about you doing dashes forward into jump cancel into air BD, dash jc into neutral jump barrier/button, just a regural forward dash, dash/no dash into IAD button/barrier (if you whiff a button, you can use 6A to fish out pokes), gustaf with or without dash, dash into Tiger Magnum. You can use 5B or 5C, they are both wonderful tools which both cover different options. You can use 2C if you want but i'd use it sparingly due increased recovery. 6C can be used in neutral but it's kinda slow but if you think opponent is jumping etc. you can throw it out but again sparingly. 

Azraels antiairs are 5A, 5B, 6B and 2C. Which you wanna use depends mostly on the situation.

As for drive moves and neutral. You can use 6D/3D in neutral BUT it's highly MU specific and opponent specific. 3D for example can be used against litchi IF you think they are going to use her stance which has armor. Other than that yeah they are good for catching rolls. Using them in oki is iffy depending on MU. If you are playing a char who has a DP, i'd rather not use them as mixup tools on oki. j2D is ok but honestly you could just use jB instead which is faster and also crosses up. j2D is good if you are doing 2D/hornet KD into IAD safe jump. With correct timing you should tag some rolls (forward roll at least) and still get safe jump timing. 

To get out of pressure you can barrier to push people farther, 5A works at times, BD is good, jump barrier is ok, counter assault, scud etc. No real easy way out tbh. 

How you use or which weakpoints you want is honestly up to your preference. Most of the time in corner you will end in jD but if you want to go for crossup growler RC OD 3D mixup then you can end in j2D. You ofc need to remember to mix things up :). Midscreen always end in j2D, jD pushes too far. Only use jD IF you know they will end up in corner, positional awareness is key here. If opponent is too high for j2D to hit, then ofc you should use jD to get at least some kind of KD. Honestly don't sweat too much about burning the WPs. Instead just focus on getting a hit in and then just use the best conversion available. If you can use 2 WPs then great, do so. Like personally even if i get AA and they have UW on them, i mostly end in j2D unless i am 100% sure i can convert into something after using jD instead. 

Growler is best left to absorb projectiles or as a crossup mixup tool. 

Ok so for 6A, it has body invuls so some ways you can use it are using it as counterpoke, bait out reversals, very situational as AA(as in you might score a AA hit at times mostly due opponent decided to IAD at you and pushes air button late). Like say you are fighting another azrael, you think he is gonna gustaf at you, then you can use 6A to go through gustaf and score a 6A CH into a combo for example. Against bang you can do 6A AFTER ashura superflash to punish it and so on. 

6C like i said can be used as a poke IF you think opponent is gonna jump. You can also use it after 5C but it will totally depend on opponent you are playing. Against some you can get away with it, some will just AA you and fuck you up. 

j2C can be used as anti-AA move or as a combo tool. Currently the rewards for using it as a anti-AA move are kinda meh but in next version you get a combo afterwards. On block you can cancel recovery into special so most of the time you probably want to do that. 

 

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On 12/26/2015 at 1:55 AM, NowItsAngeTime said:

I have some questions on how to use Azrael more effectivley.

I'm aware his general gameplan is to attempt to get weakpoints do lots of damage.

I just have some more specific questions to use him correctly.

  •  Is his neutral generally considered subpar? He does have a few long range pokes but they are somewhat slow on startup and recovery. 
  • What are ways to do better in neutral with him?
  •  Speaking of which what are his best pokes outside 2A (close and low) and 5C (mid-ish range)?
  •  Is his 5B and 6B considered his best anti-airs?
  •  I know the basic links to get high/low weakpoint on hit (5B > 2C > 6D or 3D). Are there any weakpoint attacks that you can use in neutral or links well?
  • He mostly wants to be in close to your opponent to scare them with your scary mixups and damage. Sometimes the problem is getting to that point. What are some tips to mix them up well to get in besides teleport dashes, teleport dash > jump/air dash, j.B approach, etc.
  •  What's generally his most consistent high and low weakpoint to use to attack (not to set up the weakpoint)? For Neutral and for combos/links? 
  •  His 2A has a much startup than most characters so you cant really mash out of close range pressure. outside maybe 5A. What are some tools Az can use to get people away from you when they are pressuring you besides maybe Counter Assault?
  •  Are any of his specials actually worth throwing out during neutral? I noticed Gustav and Sentinel are + on block.
  •  If you already have just one weakpoint on a character, is it generally better to try to go for a weakpoint attack on it, or try to get two weakpoints to make Az's mixup scarier?
  •  Can Growler Field be used as a situational reversal or anti-air? Or is it better to very rarely/never use it all?
  •  Are there any normals (ground or air) that aren't really worth using much at all? In particularly I'm having trouble finding use for 6A, 6C and j.2C.

- Yes. His neutral game (like most pure rushdown fighters) is somewhat lackluster. He actually has a number of bad match-ups (Nu, Valk, The Red Devil...Mu? list goes on)

- Like Kinkuli and others have stated, you're gonna wanna become good friends with dash cancelling and air barrier blocking. Use Gustaf sparingly, they can just neutral jump it and fuck you up, hard.

- 5B is a decent poke to use. 6A is great for calling out button mashing

- 5D is good against someone who isn't too great at blocking Azrael. 5BB>5D is a common mixup used and it works surprisingly often. But that doesn't mean you should use it 24/7. They'll learn and put you down. 3D, 6D are good for catching rolls like umgogo and Kinkuli said. j.2D mixups if spaced properly, similary to j.B.

- Nothing really. Those are really his best ways of approaching. 

- 6D/3D/2D. Basic BnB's consist of UW/LW 6D/3D hitting into TCL > Corner stuff. 2D hitting also leads into roughly the same thing if your close enough to the corner.

- Exactly what Kinkuli said. Panzer ain't until CF so you gotta wait a bit.

- Eh, not from a distance. Dash Cancel Gustaf/Growler/Tiger Magmun are great for mixing people up. Use it to break their guard and then break their body. "Such is the endless cycle of battle."

- Not anymore really....not anymore. Mainly used to snack on projectiles or for dash cancelled mixups.

- Kinkuli summarized 6C greatly. Used to call out jumping, it caused ground bounce if they're low enough, and if they're high enough you can juggle them (in certain situations.)

- j.2C, yeah, anti-antiair attack. It'll stop your momentum in the air so if you predict an anti-air attack coming your way (like Hazama's 2C), use it and slam him into the ground. It'll grant you a knockdown and get you in their face. Fuck 'em up after that. 6A like stated before is splendid if you feel like they're mashing. It has invulnerable frames, so if you see an attack coming your way (Hell's Fang for example), then 6A for CH and pound them into paste. 5A, 5B, 6B and 2C are his anti-airs. Though 2C tends to get stuffed from time to time. I think 5B is great. 6B got buffed in extend in the fact that you can cancel it earlier. j.D got nerfed in Extend so use j.2D as knockdown unless they're too high. Use j.D if they'll end up in the corner.

- Use this knowledge and devour all those who stand in your way like the Mad Dog you are. To master Azrael, is to become Azrael himself!

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Probably best not to get too excited about Panzer tbh. Hazama pointblank 3C goes under it, it whiffs against valk 2B and brjA (why god why) and i'm sure there will be a lot of tools to beat it on wakeup. Looks ok as an antiair or against certain blockstrings i'd say. 

But yea just throwing it out there so people don't get TOO excited about it haha. Better than nothing but from what i've seen, i'm more interested in it's potential in combos tbh hah.

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