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[CF] Blazblue CENTRAL FICTION: News and Gameplay Discussion

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Just now, Zouf said:

Hopefully his overhead is nice (good range and not obvious animation) because I think he has some trouble to find an opening.

24-frame OH according to the Japanese.

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8 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

I never said they aren't strong lol.

Jin is still a rather average character overall, the only thing truly busted about him is maybe his j.2C with its busted ass hitbox. So no, only "high tiers" can't beat him. His movement, mixup, damage, etc etc are still rather average overall. Not saying he isn't strong,  but, once again, its the player more than likely. Because like I said, Jin is played by some of the best players in the game :V

It's implied, because that's what "Jack of all trades" means.  The full phrase is "Jack of all trades, Master of none".

And no, sorry, I'm with Zouf - Jin has a dominating midrange game and basically no substantial weaknesses.   He's not top tier because he's played by good players, he's top tier because he's really GOOD.  He has tools for everything, and they are strong tools.  Seriously, are you asserting that the quality of Jin players is better than the quality of players of other characters? I think that's an unsupported position, partly because there is literally no way to measure that, and partly because there are tons of people who don't play Jin who are clearly VERY GOOD. (Goro says hi)

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11 hours ago, Airk said:

It's implied, because that's what "Jack of all trades" means.  The full phrase is "Jack of all trades, Master of none".

And no, sorry, I'm with Zouf - Jin has a dominating midrange game and basically no substantial weaknesses.   He's not top tier because he's played by good players, he's top tier because he's really GOOD.  He has tools for everything, and they are strong tools.  Seriously, are you asserting that the quality of Jin players is better than the quality of players of other characters? I think that's an unsupported position, partly because there is literally no way to measure that, and partly because there are tons of people who don't play Jin who are clearly VERY GOOD. (Goro says hi)

I'm saying that a player might actually just straight up be good rather than something about the character being amazing.(Note, this is not always necessarily true, sometimes a character really is strong enough to carry a player) Seriously, just because Jin has tools for everything, and those tools themselves are useful doesn't make said tools better than the characters who actually perform them better. Tao and Valkenhayn have better movement and mixup, Litchi can control space better with her staff, and Izayoi can basically do everything Jin can do on a much grander scale and the list goes on. Jin is still average because while he does have good tools, they are still tools that other characters have and may actually perform better in, as I mentioned. That, by definition, is what's called a "Jack of All trades, Master of None" character :V

Now sure, in the hands of a GOOD player, then he's a fucking monster. But that's it, it's the player that is bringing out the best in the character. And while I don't think Jin players are better than players of other character, there are a lot of good Jin players out there that are pretty well known. That's something you can't really deny.

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1 hour ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

I'm saying that a player might actually just straight up be good rather than something about the character being amazing.(Note, this is not always necessarily true, sometimes a character really is strong enough to carry a player) Seriously, just because Jin has tools for everything, and those tools themselves are useful doesn't make said tools better than the characters who actually perform them better. Tao and Valkenhayn have better movement and mixup, Litchi can control space better with her staff, and Izayoi can basically do everything Jin can do on a much grander scale and the list goes on. Jin is still average because while he does have good tools, they are still tools that other characters have and may actually perform better in, as I mentioned. That, by definition, is what's called a "Jack of All trades, Master of None" character :V

Now sure, in the hands of a GOOD player, then he's a fucking monster. But that's it, it's the player that is bringing out the best in the character. And while I don't think Jin players are better than players of other character, there are a lot of good Jin players out there that are pretty well known. That's something you can't really deny.

This makes no sense.  Partly because you're playing some weird nitpicking game by saying "Well, character A is better at Z, and character B is better at Y and character C is better and X" while ignoring the fact that A sucks at Y and X, and B is trash at Z and X etc, partly because you're still ignoring the thing that everyone says Jin is awesome at, and also because either, a comparably good player could do better with those other characters and therefore they would be higher tier, or Jin is actually strong.

Jin is actually strong.  I don't see why you are fighting this idea so hard.

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12 minutes ago, Airk said:

This makes no sense.  Partly because you're playing some weird nitpicking game by saying "Well, character A is better at Z, and character B is better at Y and character C is better and X" while ignoring the fact that A sucks at Y and X, and B is trash at Z and X etc.  And also because either a comparably good player could do better with those other characters and therefore they would be higher tier, or Jin is actually strong.

Jin is actually strong.  I don't see why you are fighting this idea so hard.

I really don't know how to explain this any simpler lol. I'm not even arguing that Jin isn't good, I never said that in any of my previous posts, what am I saying is that his tools, when looked at by themselves, are inherently average when compared to the tools that other characters have. Together? Yes, they make him a very good and versatile character, but none of that changes the fact that they are tools that are lesser than things other characters can do. 

All I'm literally saying is that Jin is not specialized, I don't know what's so difficult about this to understand. :\

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Two quick questions?

 

What in the hell has made Arakune go from "not great" in CPE to "dear god..." in CF?

 

How is the relative balance?  In other words, is the gap between the lowest tier and highest tier small or large?  Does low tier stand a chance vs high tier?

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2 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

I really don't know how to explain this any simpler lol. I'm not even arguing that Jin isn't good, I never said that in any of my previous posts, what am I saying is that his tools, when looked at by themselves, are inherently average when compared to the tools that other characters have. Together? Yes, they make him a very good and versatile character, but none of that changes the fact that they are tools that are lesser than things other characters can do. 

All I'm literally saying is that Jin is not specialized, I don't know what's so difficult about this to understand. :\

I always thought Jin was the best at being a pain in the ass to everyone. Your not going to outright win in any situation you put him in, and he can take advantage of you being weaker in others.

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On 10 March 2016 at 2:53 PM, QSpec said:

What in the hell has made Arakune go from "not great" in CPE to "dear god..." in CF?

1.) All of his bnb combos lead to instant curse because of removal of SMP. 

2.) Curse reverted back to timer based so go ham with bugs. This alone makes Overdrive worth it.

3.) Active flow recharge cycle gives him access to curse frequently without full curse meter.  

4.) He has new tools in neutral especially the new cloud. Much better than previous iterations.

Aside from weakened damage and lesser mixups I feel he is overall better than BBCSEX and not as retarded as BBCT.

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1 hour ago, Davo87 said:

1.) All of his bnb combos lead to instant curse because of removal of SMP. 2.) Curse reverted back to timer based so go ham with bugs. This alone makes Overdrive worth it. 3.) Active flow recharge cycle gives him access to curse frequently without full curse meter.  4.) He has new tools in neutral especially the new cloud. Much better than previous iterations.

Aside from weakened damage and lesser mixups I feel he is overall better than BBCSEX and not as retarded as BBCT.

He can't be better than BBCSEX where he was god tier

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1 hour ago, Zouf said:

He can't be better than BBCSEX where he was god tier

If you measure one hit kill combos then he cannot do that now.  When I said overall in BBCF it means his risk reward game is immensely to his favor and its easier to attain than before. Cloud works closer to CT and Arakune can curse you with one cloud without even touching you. 

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4 hours ago, DJ_Blactricity said:

I always thought Jin was the best at being a pain in the ass to everyone. Your not going to outright win in any situation you put him in, and he can take advantage of you being weaker in others.

Well, Jin is a strong character overall. He is always solid, consistent, and is unlikely to ever get massive changes to his gameplay, so he has always been strong, every since BBCT. While this is true, he is overall balanced, his weak mix up (for the most part) is probably his main flaw to be honest. And like BlackYakuza said, his overall tools only average in comparison to other characters, but the main appeal is he has all the fundamental fighting game tools (besides a command throw). My best example would probably be Jin's Ice Blade isn't better than Nu's 5D. Jin isn't really a pain in the ass, he is just, well strong like he always has been.

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10 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

I really don't know how to explain this any simpler lol. I'm not even arguing that Jin isn't good, I never said that in any of my previous posts, what am I saying is that his tools, when looked at by themselves, are inherently average when compared to the tools that other characters have. Together? Yes, they make him a very good and versatile character, but none of that changes the fact that they are tools that are lesser than things other characters can do. 

All I'm literally saying is that Jin is not specialized, I don't know what's so difficult about this to understand. :\

But he DOES have some tools which are extremely strong, even compared to other characters.  How many characters can actually challenge him from around the range of his 5C?  His mid-range spacing gaming is crazy oppressive.  Unless you're seriously trying to do a move-by-move comparison of tools...but why would you even do that?  It's meaningless in a vacuum.  Having the best DP in the game doesn't make Ragna (or Mu, or whoever) top tier.

His tools are not average.  They're overall better than average.  No, he's probably not "the best" at any one thing, but that's basically irrelevant. Tager is "the best" at doing lots of damage with a single distortion, but that doesn't make him top tier. 

The whole point of tiers is that they are a combination of things.  Why would you even look at any individual tool by itself? 

Whether he is "specialized" or not is irrelevant.  You started this conversation by saying "Unless their tools are outright terrible, it depends on the player" which is kinda silly, because it either implies that only characters that have terrible tools can be low tier (Tsubaki and Tager say hi) or...that a character needs good tools in all areas to be good. @_@

7 hours ago, QSpec said:

How is the relative balance?  In other words, is the gap between the lowest tier and highest tier small or large?  Does low tier stand a chance vs high tier?

Since you Arakune question already got answered better than I could have,I'm going to give this one my best guess:

It's about the same as recent BB games.  The low tier characters might be slightly less bad, but the high tier characters feel a little more dominant than the top tier in the past couple.  It's still better than like, BBCS, but I'm not convinced it's any better than CP.

So what does THAT mean? The same thing it always does: Low tier characters can win, but will have to work significantly harder.

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Jin just does good in every situation against any character he fights because he has all the right tools and pretty much all of them are good. There is nothing, not even mixup, that he doesn't do better than a several other characters in that field. He almost certainly can always play the player in any match unlike other characters who have to fight both the player and their respective character.

 

basically whoever said that he is solid and consistent pretty much is on the money. You put Jin in a situation and it's pretty much his call to do the right move.

 

arakune may not be ct status but you can surely look forward to me leading the upcoming arakune hate mob a few months into the game. It's not curse the pisses me off, it's the fact that he can get it off any random confirm like 5a. Brings back memories of arakune mashing 5a out of pressure and subsequently winning that round.

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26 minutes ago, Airk said:

But he DOES have some tools which are extremely strong, even compared to other characters.  How many characters can actually challenge him from around the range of his 5C?  His mid-range spacing gaming is crazy oppressive.  Unless you're seriously trying to do a move-by-move comparison of tools...but why would you even do that?  It's meaningless in a vacuum.  Having the best DP in the game doesn't make Ragna (or Mu, or whoever) top tier.

His tools are not average.  They're overall better than average.  No, he's probably not "the best" at any one thing, but that's basically irrelevant. Tager is "the best" at doing lots of damage with a single distortion, but that doesn't make him top tier. 

The whole point of tiers is that they are a combination of things.  Why would you even look at any individual tool by itself? 

Whether he is "specialized" or not is irrelevant.  You started this conversation by saying "Unless their tools are outright terrible, it depends on the player" which is kinda silly, because it either implies that only characters that have terrible tools can be low tier (Tsubaki and Tager say hi) or...that a character needs good tools in all areas to be good. @_@

You are seriously going out of your way to make yourself seem "right" aren't you and just ignore everything I'm saying huh. I really don't know what else to say without coming off as redundant. The proof is literally in the frame data and how the game is structured, and you can talk to anyone who actually knows a thing or two about this game and they'll probably tell you something similar to what I'm saying. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Airk said:

But he DOES have some tools which are extremely strong, even compared to other characters.  How many characters can actually challenge him from around the range of his 5C?  His mid-range spacing gaming is crazy oppressive.  Unless you're seriously trying to do a move-by-move comparison of tools...but why would you even do that?  It's meaningless in a vacuum.  Having the best DP in the game doesn't make Ragna (or Mu, or whoever) top tier.

His tools are not average.  They're overall better than average.  No, he's probably not "the best" at any one thing, but that's basically irrelevant. Tager is "the best" at doing lots of damage with a single distortion, but that doesn't make him top tier. 

The whole point of tiers is that they are a combination of things.  Why would you even look at any individual tool by itself? 

Whether he is "specialized" or not is irrelevant.  You started this conversation by saying "Unless their tools are outright terrible, it depends on the player" which is kinda silly, because it either implies that only characters that have terrible tools can be low tier (Tsubaki and Tager say hi) or...that a character needs good tools in all areas to be good. @_@

Jin is obviously a strong character, but you are overrating some of his tools, as a Jack of All Trades character he has to have tools that round him out, 5C is obviously a strong poke, but you can't tell me it is better than Mu 5C poke, a character that excels at mid-long range combat. Same how Jin Ice sword while it is good, it is NOT better than Nu 5D.

 

Thats the point: Jin is strong because he has all these different tools at his disposal to use appropriately, but these tools won't shine in anyway compared to characters who excel in those areas. 

Edited by DivineTempest
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4 hours ago, TD said:

It's not curse the pisses me off, it's the fact that he can get it off any random confirm like 5a. Brings back memories of arakune mashing 5a out of pressure and subsequently winning that round.

That's pretty scary considering I mostly play netplay and 5A is the best thing if you don't have a DP to spam. I guess the Nine army isn't the only thing I'll have to worry about.

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5 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

You are seriously going out of your way to make yourself seem "right" aren't you and just ignore everything I'm saying huh. I really don't know what else to say without coming off as redundant. The proof is literally in the frame data and how the game is structured, and you can talk to anyone who actually knows a thing or two about this game and they'll probably tell you something similar to what I'm saying. 

I don't really care if I'm right, I just think that:

A) Evaluating tools on a case by case basis is meaningless

B) Jin has some very strong tools.  Maybe not "best in game" but seriously?  His 5C is faster, more active frames, and less recovery than Mu 5C.  I would seriously question calling one of those "Better"

 

As for "anyone who knows a thing or two about this game" it sounds like TD agrees with me. :P

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5 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

You are seriously going out of your way to make yourself seem "right" aren't you and just ignore everything I'm saying huh. I really don't know what else to say without coming off as redundant. The proof is literally in the frame data and how the game is structured, and you can talk to anyone who actually knows a thing or two about this game and they'll probably tell you something similar to what I'm saying. 

I don't really care if I'm right, I just think that:

A) Evaluating tools on a case by case basis is meaningless. So if your point is that "Jin's <individual tool here> is not as good as <Arbitrarily chosen character with a vaguely similar move>" then that's basically irrelevant

B) Jin has some top tier tools. Maybe not "best in game" but seriously?  His 5C is faster, more active frames, and less recovery than Mu 5C.  I would seriously question calling one of those "Better"

Which of those points do you disagree with?

As for "anyone who knows a thing or two about this game" it sounds like TD agrees with me. :P

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50 minutes ago, Airk said:

I don't really care if I'm right, I just think that:

A) Evaluating tools on a case by case basis is meaningless. So if your point is that "Jin's <individual tool here> is not as good as <Arbitrarily chosen character with a vaguely similar move>" then that's basically irrelevant

B) Jin has some top tier tools. Maybe not "best in game" but seriously?  His 5C is faster, more active frames, and less recovery than Mu 5C.  I would seriously question calling one of those "Better"

Which of those points do you disagree with?

As for "anyone who knows a thing or two about this game" it sounds like TD agrees with me. :P

Evaluating tools on a case by case basis is far from meaningless. Why do you think risk/reward comes up so much from top players? Evaluate Jin's 5C vs Mu's 5C again, and look past the frame data. I am a Jin player, and I hate Mu's 5C with a passion.

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56 minutes ago, DJ_Blactricity said:

Evaluating tools on a case by case basis is far from meaningless. Why do you think risk/reward comes up so much from top players? Evaluate Jin's 5C vs Mu's 5C again, and look past the frame data. I am a Jin player, and I hate Mu's 5C with a passion.

I suppose it depends; different moves and abilities interact with each other.  Tager may have some great range on some of his moves, but between his size and mobility, he's not really a great zoning character.

Which actually, I suppose that's why Jin is strong; the fact that he does everything well gives gives him a bit of synergy; he's more than the sum of his parts.  That said, some people may be exaggerating a bit.

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33 minutes ago, Narroo said:

I suppose it depends; different moves and abilities interact with each other.  Tager may have some great range on some of his moves, but between his size and mobility, he's not really a great zoning character.

Which actually, I suppose that's why Jin is strong; the fact that he does everything well gives gives him a bit of synergy; he's more than the sum of his parts.  That said, some people may be exaggerating a bit.

It always depends. The little things matter. The best players take advantage of the smallest things, and you won't understand what's happening unless you analyzed the situation as much as they did. Ex. Let's take Haz flying in with j.4DD j.2C and ragna using 6A to AA in the corner. From the sounds of it Haz should eat 6A, but it's not always true. Depending on the timing and angle, Rag. 6A will whiff, Haz will cross him up, and hit him with j.2C.

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