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[CF] Blazblue CENTRAL FICTION: News and Gameplay Discussion

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1 hour ago, Airk said:

All that said, if Nine's DP is so susceptible to option selects, why isn't everyone doing it?  It seems weird that if it can safe jabbed, that all the top tier Japanese players who are losing to her right now aren't doing that.  Right now, to me it seems better than a lot of DPs in the game since it is so difficult to get a punish on (Calling out a DP with with 2k jab combo is nothing like actually being able to punish it) , so calling Nine a character with "limited defensive options" just doesn't add up.

Until we get some honest to god frame data that proves otherwise, I'm going to maintain that she is too strong and only getting worse over time.

Because contrary to popular belief, the Japanese aren't perfect and they too will fall for things if they aren't paying attention, they piss, shit, and sleep just like the rest of us. :V A better question would be why do you think they aren't doing it? 

You can't really punish her DP (very few characters actually can), but she's forced to use a stock for it and you don't actually lose your position and can maintain the offensive game. Punshing things isn't just about "block X and hit them to get damage", you have to look at the situation and the things surrounding it. 

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18 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

they too will fall for things if they aren't paying attention, they piss, shit, and sleep just like the rest of us. :V

No they don't. 

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21 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

Because contrary to popular belief, the Japanese aren't perfect and they too will fall for things if they aren't paying attention, they piss, shit, and sleep just like the rest of us. :V A better question would be why do you think they aren't doing it? 

You can't really punish her DP (very few characters actually can), but she's forced to use a stock for it and you don't actually lose your position and can maintain the offensive game. Punshing things isn't just about "block X and hit them to get damage", you have to look at the situation and the things surrounding it. 

The obvious answer for me for your first question is "Because it doesn't actually work, or is extremely difficult and not reliable." Certainly, that's where the evidence seems to be pointing. It seems more convincing that your suggestion that they just aren't up to the task.

That said, I'm not really convinced you even maintain your offensive game here - I've seen too many instances of people baiting/avoiding the DP and then getting hit when they tried to reapply pressure. And in any event, how many other defensive options in the game merely "allow you to maintain your offensive game" if you bait them with the optimal solution?

In any event, a character who has both most-of-the-time-available DP, a unique movement option that can avoid a lot of stuff, and an invulnerable reversal super doesn't fit the picture of 'limited defensive options' in a game where there are characters that only have one of those. (See: Carl)

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Nine has weaknesses as other have pointed out just like Lambda  did when ppl were first going "omfg" about her back in the day.Sure it's going to be an uphill fight for 90% of the cast based on her normals alone plus you really need to understand and know what her magic spells can do or you just die sadly. As for the DP it's like Tsubaki's right? Not really much you can do about it. (Not a Tsubaki player so please correct me if I'm wrong)

IMO. Carl actually has a ton of really good def options when you consider what Ada is capable of and how even just making her active can be enough protection. 

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Carl's defensive momentum was buffed very much, he's not at all how he used to be. He is the momentum king at the moment

 

nines weaknesses is that her unique strengths were specifically balanced so that people who successfully checked that move can start momentum. Her dp isn't punishable but isn't safe and using a stock can end up being a big problem if the dp doesn't work just once. So it's good and not as risky as a traditional dp but still so. Her dash is awesome but it makes her so slow. Characters like azrael love how slow she is even with all the elusive dashing. Her backdash not being f1 invul takes away a lot of consistent defense and replaces it with a gimmicky defensive dash that can avoid stuff other characters can't IF you're smart with it.

all in all nines defense good but not unbeatable. It's all safe but her weaknesses can rear their ugly heads at the worst moments and then she can die. She definitely doesn't need buffs, however her weaknesses are there and really are the only way to beat her by getting her while she messed up. She's such an amazingly good yet balanced character imo. Not at all like other top tiers in previous games. Well maybe kunzite can be tones slightly

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6 hours ago, MoneyD90 said:

Nine has weaknesses as other have pointed out just like Lambda  did when ppl were first going "omfg" about her back in the day.Sure it's going to be an uphill fight for 90% of the cast based on her normals alone plus you really need to understand and know what her magic spells can do or you just die sadly. As for the DP it's like Tsubaki's right? Not really much you can do about it. (Not a Tsubaki player so please correct me if I'm wrong)

IMO. Carl actually has a ton of really good def options when you consider what Ada is capable of and how even just making her active can be enough protection. 

Tsubaki's DP is hard to punish when she has install gauge because she can whiff cancel into something less unsafe. But it is punishable. Most people just don't really know how, and there is also a kind of mind game for it.

I'd say Tsubaki's is better though. The range of her DP has nothing to do with Nine's, so it will most likely hit than not.

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4 hours ago, TD said:

Carl's defensive momentum was buffed very much, he's not at all how he used to be. He is the momentum king at the moment

 

nines weaknesses is that her unique strengths were specifically balanced so that people who successfully checked that move can start momentum. Her dp isn't punishable but isn't safe and using a stock can end up being a big problem if the dp doesn't work just once. So it's good and not as risky as a traditional dp but still so. Her dash is awesome but it makes her so slow. Characters like azrael love how slow she is even with all the elusive dashing. Her backdash not being f1 invul takes away a lot of consistent defense and replaces it with a gimmicky defensive dash that can avoid stuff other characters can't IF you're smart with it.

all in all nines defense good but not unbeatable. It's all safe but her weaknesses can rear their ugly heads at the worst moments and then she can die. She definitely doesn't need buffs, however her weaknesses are there and really are the only way to beat her by getting her while she messed up. She's such an amazingly good yet balanced character imo. Not at all like other top tiers in previous games. Well maybe kunzite can be tones slightly

I don't think the bone of contention people have with nine isn't so much that she has no weaknesses, or that she can't get called out and put in a hugely disadvantageous situation, it's just those weaknesses aren't as pronounced as other characters who are also have a strong neutral. Either that, or in order to allow her defenses to stay at the level it is (which I'd rate at about a 'solid', but with noticeable, and unique holes) she needs to have her offensive tools toned down. Though that's more of a question of balance than design.

And on a more personal note that I do believe  a few people share... Nine presents obnoxious because of how mindless kunzite of faceblock can be. So many Nines out there who just live in a kunzite into tanzanite loop with either meteors or fairy at the end for oki, and that's... pretty much all they do. I can't even blame them, because it's effective, and yeah, they wanna win, but to see the same shit so often on a character who has ALL THOSE TOOLS is frustrating. We never see Heliodor, Celestite, or Shawl. Andradite and Morganite are only used occasionally. I don't think it would hurt to see a little more of the single and double stock pure fire/water/wind spells either since they're not used very often (though ideally i think those moves should be changed so that the levels aren't just more of the same but better, but that's a different matter entirely.) and Mauvette Roar is currently pretty much overshadowed by her 6a/b/c which is a damn crime. Sea moss gate is more often used to keep a stock ready for flux nurture or to double up on kunzites instead of neat Spell->moss gate->spell combos. 

I dunno, maybe It's just me being a weirdo, but whenever i see a nine match (except for like... saki, he at least tries to mix it up) I just get so bored because it's the same old brute forcing your way through with kunzite  and neutral dominance schitck I've seen a hundred times before, which I'll admit makes me biased on the matter but... ugh. Can't help but think that her current state is not the playstyle they envisioned when they made her.

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I agree with you 100%. Yeah her spells definitely have a meta to them lol. Well I've seen heliodor recently and it doesn't seem to block lows. In general her spells that aren't used are just not useful at the moment it seems as opposed to her main spells being strong even though that is also a reason why the others aren't used so much.

 

shes definitely stale in the wrong hands lol

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Yeah, Nine sort of hits the law of strategic dominance on the nose. She has a few spells that are far and away better than anything else in her repertoire so there's really no reason to use them. I imagine she was envisioned to use a wide arsenal of spells all over the place and look really flashy and anime. But players went for the path of least resistance and used only the spells and strategies that work best. It'll be interesting, I suppose, if a Nine deviates from the norm, which will probably catch most people off guard. So yeah, Nine is super meta right now. I am ready for our kunzite overlords.

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I hope nobody really expected all twenty of her spells to be useful; I kinda knew there'd be one spell that was more practical than others and it would be abused to the ends to the ends of the earth. And lord and behold, it happened. I'm not shocked though, in a tournament setting, you find the most practical setup and abuse it until the opponent is dead. Its not exactly entertaining or flashy, but then that's what combo videos are for when we get the console release.

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3 hours ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

I hope nobody really expected all twenty of her spells to be useful; I kinda knew there'd be one spell that was more practical than others and it would be abused to the ends to the ends of the earth. And lord and behold, it happened. I'm not shocked though, in a tournament setting, you find the most practical setup and abuse it until the opponent is dead. Its not exactly entertaining or flashy, but then that's what combo videos are for when we get the console release.

It's up to ASW to make the other spells more useful (or the current strong one less useful).

It was not so obvious that a minority of her spells would overpower the others.

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12 hours ago, TD said:

Carl's defensive momentum was buffed very much, he's not at all how he used to be. He is the momentum king at the moment

 

nines weaknesses is that her unique strengths were specifically balanced so that people who successfully checked that move can start momentum. Her dp isn't punishable but isn't safe and using a stock can end up being a big problem if the dp doesn't work just once. So it's good and not as risky as a traditional dp but still so. Her dash is awesome but it makes her so slow. Characters like azrael love how slow she is even with all the elusive dashing. Her backdash not being f1 invul takes away a lot of consistent defense and replaces it with a gimmicky defensive dash that can avoid stuff other characters can't IF you're smart with it.

all in all nines defense good but not unbeatable. It's all safe but her weaknesses can rear their ugly heads at the worst moments and then she can die. She definitely doesn't need buffs, however her weaknesses are there and really are the only way to beat her by getting her while she messed up. She's such an amazingly good yet balanced character imo. Not at all like other top tiers in previous games. Well maybe kunzite can be tones slightly

Based on what you're saying, that's something of an issue in of itself.  She may have weaknesses, but learning them and exploiting them takes a lot more effort than most characters.  Obviously, I haven't played the game yet, but I'd imagine that it would be annoying to play against a character that to beat you have to sit down and study for an extended period of time in order to beat.  Having a high learning curve to exploit is an advantage in of itself.

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I wouldn't say it's high learning curve to beat her. I say she's unconventional. Yes you're going to have to learn how to deal with her a little differently as with most new characters that come out

im not saying it's not difficult and that she's not annoying to fight. She looks very annoying

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21 minutes ago, Narroo said:

Based on what you're saying, that's something of an issue in of itself.  She may have weaknesses, but learning them and exploiting them takes a lot more effort than most characters.  Obviously, I haven't played the game yet, but I'd imagine that it would be annoying to play against a character that to beat you have to sit down and study for an extended period of time in order to beat.  Having a high learning curve to exploit is an advantage in of itself.

It's hard to say if she's more difficult to deal with than other characters since we don't have a scale for these sorts of things and it can be subjective. Nevertheless, I don't see anything wrong with having to sit down and study a character for an extended period of time. That's how all those pro players get so good at the game. They study a lot and destroy people who haven't studied enough. When the game drops in the US, it'll be a good idea for anyone interested in being competitive to study up on Nine because she's someone you'll have to face a lot.

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3 hours ago, Zouf said:

It's up to ASW to make the other spells more useful (or the current strong one less useful).

It was not so obvious that a minority of her spells would overpower the others.

I'm never said the other spells aren't useful though, some are just better than others; its like if you got a pistol and a Shotgun, both obviously do significant damage but one of them is obviously better than the other. That's the situation here.

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19 hours ago, Airk said:

The obvious answer for me for your first question is "Because it doesn't actually work, or is extremely difficult and not reliable." Certainly, that's where the evidence seems to be pointing. It seems more convincing that your suggestion that they just aren't up to the task.

That said, I'm not really convinced you even maintain your offensive game here - I've seen too many instances of people baiting/avoiding the DP and then getting hit when they tried to reapply pressure. And in any event, how many other defensive options in the game merely "allow you to maintain your offensive game" if you bait them with the optimal solution?

In any event, a character who has both most-of-the-time-available DP, a unique movement option that can avoid a lot of stuff, and an invulnerable reversal super doesn't fit the picture of 'limited defensive options' in a game where there are characters that only have one of those. (See: Carl)

Its how those defensive options are structured and how they compare to everyone else's tho; like Nine not having a dash is already something of a disadvantage when 70% of the cast have a dash, and unlike like Valkenhayn or Hazama, she doesn't have a significant movement option to cover that. She's like Hakumen with okizeme lol.

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10 hours ago, Scratchmen Apoo said:

Speaking of console release....HURRY AND GIVE IT TO US!:arg:

How did you get those emoticons on your Sig? I want it. =3

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out.

 

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10 hours ago, AchedSphinx said:

It's hard to say if she's more difficult to deal with than other characters since we don't have a scale for these sorts of things and it can be subjective. Nevertheless, I don't see anything wrong with having to sit down and study a character for an extended period of time. That's how all those pro players get so good at the game. They study a lot and destroy people who haven't studied enough. When the game drops in the US, it'll be a good idea for anyone interested in being competitive to study up on Nine because she's someone you'll have to face a lot.

It's not bad to need to study a character if you want to be good; I'm not saying that.  Rather, it would be an issue if one character took several times the effort to learn to fight against then everyone else.  That said, it seems this is not the case.

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Long time no see, Unlimited Ragna.

Apparently this is what happens when you beat everybody with supers/EAs/Astrals and perfects. You either face Unlimited Ragna, Unlimited Nine, or Unlimited Izanami. You fight them in Take-Mikazuchi's stage from CP.

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It's not really Take-Mikazuchi's stage, though like Take-Mikazuchi's stage it appears to be a "dark" version of Blockaded District; it even has the same block number as Blockaded District.

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I want to ask something, why Tao isn't good? Despite her HP. She is really quick and can be really tricky to catch with her drive, so what's up with her?

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On 4/7/2016 at 5:06 PM, JustaMaskedFreak said:

I want to ask something, why Tao isn't good? Despite her HP. She is really quick and can be really tricky to catch with her drive, so what's up with her?

I don't think Tao isn't good just that other characters are better than her with better, easier rewards. Tao is a tricky character to use and fight against so because of that they rather use someone (i.e. Ragna) who's easier gameplay wise with more rewards. This is the impression I get because I rarely see Tao/Litchi players or even Carl for that matter. The majority of people I see are: Naoto, Ragna, Muro units, Iza, Jin and boss characters.

Someone can correct me on this.

I just want the console release so I can import because it's never coming to Europe/America in the same year.

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