Jump to content
kosmos badgirl

[CF] Blazblue CENTRAL FICTION: News and Gameplay Discussion

Recommended Posts

CP1 Kokonoe was definitely broken, the general consensus was the same when we first saw Nine in action.

"She looks broken right now, but let's see how well people can adapt before going into a frenzy and calling her broken."

Turns out this worked with Nine, she has weaknesses that can be exploited, even though she's clearly top tier. CP Koko on the other hand wasn't really beatable unless we count skill gaps. That's why she wound up nerfed without negative repercussions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not convinced yet;  People didn't REALLY start bitching about CP1 Koko until she started wrecking tournaments over here.    We'll see what people think about Nine being broken after they've played against her for a while.

If we even get the same version of Nine.  I certainly wouldn't put it past them to do an "okay, this has been in the arcade for a year, let's tune it for console release" patch.  Kokonoe was double problematic because they basically threw her out with the console release and said "LOLZ, here you go! Untested character!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Airk said:

I'm not convinced yet;  People didn't REALLY start bitching about CP1 Koko until she started wrecking tournaments over here.    We'll see what people think about Nine being broken after they've played against her for a while.

If we even get the same version of Nine.  I certainly wouldn't put it past them to do an "okay, this has been in the arcade for a year, let's tune it for console release" patch.  Kokonoe was double problematic because they basically threw her out with the console release and said "LOLZ, here you go! Untested character!"

Yeah, but it was mostly because people kept saying: "This is just Arcade footage, we don't even know these players, maybe it's just a bad matchup..."

And yeah, I don't think we'll not see balance patches between Arcade and Console. It may happen, but then it will come around the time we get Jubei DLC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not true. I'm not exaggerating: I've -literally- heard people calling kokonoe broken from day one when it surfaced that she can get 7k EASILY. Even when I saw her (not like I'm some sort of prophet or anything, just saying) I was like this character is going straight to the top no questions asked.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Shigekazu said:

Is true that nine is broken? I keep hearing things from other people, but im not sure what to believe.

Long story short, no. Nine isn't even close to broken. She's a strong character, definitely one of the stronger characters but very much comparable. I wouldn't really put her in top 3, but she's up there.

A lot of points of Nine's strength come from mobility and great air to air / air to ground, and general RPS demand on her movement + good conversions. Kunzite is awesome for pressure, and demands a lot of respect from very high in the air at low commitment, rather than just being an overhead. But of course, that helps in it's effectiveness lol.

 

10 hours ago, oh no, he said said:

Very strong, yes, broken, not really. Nine has a really strong neutral game, and kunzite of faceblock is one of the strongest moves in the game right now, to the point it seriously homogenizes her gameplay, and alomst all combos end in some killer oki. She has defensive tools, good ones, but they aren't always avaialble. A Nine with no magic stuck in the corner is a very sad nine indeed.

Carl is what I would call broken. His neutral is an absurdly frustrating litchi lite: more movement edition, and has crossup and mixup for days, has no problem establishing oki, his corner pressure is what I would call borderline unfair because ada can negate pushback, so good luck getting out of that without a DP(not that carl cares THAT much about DPs anyways since he's got bait for days). This would all be okay were it not for the fact that he is insanely frustrating to lockdown because the second you start to pressure ada comes flying in with an offscreen fuoco to ream your ass. This would also be acceptable if breaking ada was a serious 'oh shit' moment for carl, and not just 'well, time to play keepaway for 10 seconds.' Right now the only thing that's keeping him from becoming truly insane is because he's pretty difficult mechanically.

If you think Carl is broken, you're seriously over exaggerating! He's pretty tame compared to some of the earlier top tier character's we've had in the game with excellent neutral control and more severe mixup / momentum with better resource return. I'm not going to use this as basis for my justification rather than an example, but check how Ryuusei lost to RAGNA at KSB. Sure, I will definitely say Ryuusei didn't play so well, but it's a good example of how Carl's approach is actually one of his WEAKEST points. Many characters (Ragna) can definitely (safely) out neutral him, and he's a character who hinges on reward from his offense to offeset that. Theory, anecdotal evidence, footage, blah blah. It's all there. I'll definitely vouch for that angle, Carl's approach and neutral risk is...fine lol.

Factor in arcade delay, of course you have something that is a bit bolstered by that, but...

Even so, If you think Carl's approach / neutral options are STILL that strong even in that context, then you don't really understand how developed RPS pans out for neutral approaches from both players. But in this case, if you were under the misconception that his neutral was really that strong I can see why you /might/ think that he is excessively strong, but even then, his offense is still not quite the monstrosity that you seem to play it up as.

6C overdrive!!! Whoah!!

I don't really get it, lol.

 

1 hour ago, Airk said:

I'm not convinced yet;  People didn't REALLY start bitching about CP1 Koko until she started wrecking tournaments over here.    We'll see what people think about Nine being broken after they've played against her for a while.

If we even get the same version of Nine.  I certainly wouldn't put it past them to do an "okay, this has been in the arcade for a year, let's tune it for console release" patch.  Kokonoe was double problematic because they basically threw her out with the console release and said "LOLZ, here you go! Untested character!"

Do you even go to tournaments? People thought she was a joke from Day 1. Day 1!!! A ton of people dropped the version in the US because we used console for tournament standard, and japan didn't. If you mean people who comment on youtube videos didn't start bitching until then, that's probably correct, but :>

 

1 hour ago, Volt said:

CP1 Kokonoe was definitely broken, the general consensus was the same when we first saw Nine in action.

"She looks broken right now, but let's see how well people can adapt before going into a frenzy and calling her broken."

Turns out this worked with Nine, she has weaknesses that can be exploited, even though she's clearly top tier. CP Koko on the other hand wasn't really beatable unless we count skill gaps. That's why she wound up nerfed without negative repercussions.

General consensus, again, where. Like, I don't know lmao. If you guys want to talk about competitive viability and stuff then you should be paying more attention to who says what, not just taking what everyone says and thinking of it as equally viable opinions. I guarantee nobody's words worth their weight would say that about her, she had clear flaws and her strengths are STILL not so overbearing. She's definitely got a lot more room for offensive development, but the toolset she has doesn't really make it look like it's going to get out of hand or anything.

 

Jeez. Words!!! Information!!! If anyone wants me to expand on anything, I'll definitely do so but I am just reading a lot of this and really going ???

Edited by skd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, skd said:

If you think Carl is broken, you're seriously over exaggerating! He's pretty tame compared to some of the earlier top tier character's we've had in the game with excellent neutral control and more severe mixup / momentum with better resource return. I'm not going to use this as basis for my justification rather than an example, but check how Ryuusei lost to RAGNA at KSB. Sure, I will definitely say Ryuusei didn't play so well, but it's a good example of how Carl's approach is actually one of his WEAKEST points. Many characters (Ragna) can definitely (safely) out neutral him, and he's a character who hinges on reward from his offense to offeset that. Theory, anecdotal evidence, footage, blah blah. It's all there. I'll definitely vouch for that angle, Carl's approach and neutral risk is...fine lol.

Factor in arcade delay, of course you have something that is a bit bolstered by that, but...

Even so, If you think Carl's approach / neutral options are STILL that strong even in that context, then you don't really understand how developed RPS pans out for neutral approaches from both players. But in this case, if you were under the misconception that his neutral was really that strong I can see why you /might/ think that he is excessively strong, but even then, his offense is still not quite the monstrosity that you seem to play it up as.

6C overdrive!!! Whoah!!

I don't really get it, lol.

Thank you!!! Carl is no doubt extremely powerful in CF but he isn't "broken". Carl doesn't do anything game breaking in his play style and Carl simply overwhelmes people with his variety of mix ups and his strong Oki set ups. Carl's approach, as you said is actually one of his weakest aspects. As far as I can tell, Carl players usually either sit with Ada, and respond to the opponents neutral choices, or if they are forced to approach for some reason, they like doing j.214C and Fuoco. Carl has definitely been a strong character in CF, but to call him broken is actually an overexaggeration. ESPECIALLY when you like at the past REAL broken characters in BB: CT Nu, Arakune, and Rachel, and CS1 Bang and Litchi. But the word broken is thrown around so casually in this day and age, so I expected people to call Carl "broken" anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, skd said:

f you think Carl is broken, you're seriously over exaggerating! He's pretty tame compared to some of the earlier top tier character's we've had in the game with excellent neutral control and more severe mixup / momentum with better resource return. I'm not going to use this as basis for my justification rather than an example, but check how Ryuusei lost to RAGNA at KSB. Sure, I will definitely say Ryuusei didn't play so well, but it's a good example of how Carl's approach is actually one of his WEAKEST points. Many characters (Ragna) can definitely (safely) out neutral him, and he's a character who hinges on reward from his offense to offeset that. Theory, anecdotal evidence, footage, blah blah. It's all there. I'll definitely vouch for that angle, Carl's approach and neutral risk is...fine lol.

Factor in arcade delay, of course you have something that is a bit bolstered by that, but...

Even so, If you think Carl's approach / neutral options are STILL that strong even in that context, then you don't really understand how developed RPS pans out for neutral approaches from both players. But in this case, if you were under the misconception that his neutral was really that strong I can see why you /might/ think that he is excessively strong, but even then, his offense is still not quite the monstrosity that you seem to play it up as.

6C overdrive!!! Whoah!!

I don't really get it, lol.

I'll bite.

Perhaps broken is a strong word (given it's connotation) but I do think that Carl is strong in an overbearing manner, lacking in meaningful holes in his gameplan from what I've observed. There have definitely been characters who were 'more broken' since CF is looking like a game with a relatively small powergap between high and low teirs in comparison to other iterations, but just because worse things exist doesn't mean Carl can't be crazy, especially in the right hands.

I can't seem to find the video you're referencing, unfortunately, though I can glean the point you're making from other vids I've seen. My problem with Carl is that while his approach is nothing godlike, his ability to respond to approach looks quite strong. Like you said, Arcade delay is probably inflating his ability to screw with people, it's easy to forget cabs have a slight delay (tbh it's never something that made sense to me) and it should certainly help in dealing with Carl (and Nine, now that I think about it) once console release comes out.

That all being said, I really don't think I understand the "Developed RPS" you're talking about, It's actually probably the first time I've seen the term used. From the article I just read on it, it seems to basically boil down to mindgames and training habits? Not sure if my finals-addled brain is parsing it correctly though, lol. Do you mind elaborating a bit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Airk said:

I'm not convinced yet;  People didn't REALLY start bitching about CP1 Koko until she started wrecking tournaments over here.    We'll see what people think about Nine being broken after they've played against her for a while.

If we even get the same version of Nine.  I certainly wouldn't put it past them to do an "okay, this has been in the arcade for a year, let's tune it for console release" patch.  Kokonoe was double problematic because they basically threw her out with the console release and said "LOLZ, here you go! Untested character!"

ehhh can't agree with that. People who could understand this game knew from day one that the character was broken as fuck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zouf said:

ehhh can't agree with that. People who could understand this game knew from day one that the character was broken as fuck.

You just wait until Nine gets nerfed and everyone gets all smug with "Well, I knew that she was broken all along!".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Zouf said:

ehhh can't agree with that. People who could understand this game knew from day one that the character was broken as fuck.

Is there a difference between 'broken as fuck' and 'should not be allowed'?  Because it took a LOT of time for people to seriously even talk about the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, skd said:

General consensus, again, where. Like, I don't know lmao. If you guys want to talk about competitive viability and stuff then you should be paying more attention to who says what, not just taking what everyone says and thinking of it as equally viable opinions. I guarantee nobody's words worth their weight would say that about her, she had clear flaws and her strengths are STILL not so overbearing. She's definitely got a lot more room for offensive development, but the toolset she has doesn't really make it look like it's going to get out of hand or anything.

 

I meant general consensus in the old CP News thread. At first, everyone was at least concerned because she really looked strong. The better players, or at least the most level headed ones used to say things in line with what I quoted. Of course there were a lot of less experienced, skilled or level-headed players who kept screaming "OMG She's too broken, pls nerf."

That was the general consensus I mentioned. Nine is currently seen as top tier by pretty much everyone here with a brain cell, even though some people actually think she is too strong and overpowered. (Broken) But as a general consensus, everyone thinks she is top tier. The same phenomenon happened when CP1 Kokonoe was released.

I can't base a general consensus considering only the top players' opinions, that's a freakin' fallacy. If I'm talking about the general opinion I saw in a thread I can't just ignore people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If nine is released and developed as is in America, I don't see her being banned. She definitely does not compare to "brokonoe" lol

 

the only thing that nine needs a nerf with is kunzite. Think about it. Without kunzite nine would probably be pretty bad... Or even if strong, difficult to win with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, SoWL said:

You just wait until Nine gets nerfed and everyone gets all smug with "Well, I knew that she was broken all along!".

I don't want to see Nine nerfed because she looks fine to me. Ok, Kunzite is a bit strong, but whatever.

I believe she is balanced. The only nerf she really needs is her safe DP, because fuck safe DPs (Tsubaki player talking haha)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On April 30, 2016 at 9:31 PM, TD said:

If nine is released and developed as is in America, I don't see her being banned. She definitely does not compare to "brokonoe" lol

 

the only thing that nine needs a nerf with is kunzite. Think about it. Without kunzite nine would probably be pretty bad... Or even if strong, difficult to win with.

Taaffeite, Uvarorite and Morganite are also strong spells. Her normals and mobility also are part of the reason of her being strong, as well as her excellent confirm potential, mix ups (due to the spells mentioned above), solid damage output, and strong spacial control. Many characters have trouble dealing with her due to this. Kunzite is definitely one of her best spells, but we can't ignore the whole package Nine brings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, OK. Maybe she would still be a decent character. But she definitely wouldn't be at the level she is now. Kunzite takes her up a couple notches from where she would be otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TD said:

Well, OK. Maybe she would still be a decent character. But she definitely wouldn't be at the level she is now. Kunzite takes her up a couple notches from where she would be otherwise.

True, she is stronger because of Kunzite. But to be fair that is Nine's only over head lol. It also makes as a pretty strong conversion tool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DivineTempest said:

True, she is stronger because of Kunzite. But to be fair that is Nine's only over head lol. It also makes as a pretty strong conversion tool.

Not true, she also has Navy Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't she also have IOHs? I remember something about that...

I think it was her j.2A or j.2C or maybe both. Haven't seen much tech with them if so, so I'm quite curious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok. It seems like she is not "broken", but can i ask how would short range rushdown character be able to deal with her considering this information.

Quote

Taaffeite, Uvarorite and Morganite are also strong spells. Her normals and mobility also are part of the reason of her being strong, as well as her excellent confirm potential, mix ups (due to the spells mentioned above), solid damage output, and strong spacial control. Many characters have trouble dealing with her due to this. Kunzite is definitely one of her best spells, but we can't ignore the whole package Nine brings.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tokkan said:

Not true, she also has Navy Pressure.

Navy Pressure has to be one of the slowest overheads in BB, I doubt people would get opened up by it unless they are put in a heavy pressure situation where it may be hard to see, like Uvarovite. I mainly see Navy Pressure used at neutral to keep people in check, the overhead property of the move seems like a bonus to me. It's like a better version of Margaret's God Hand attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shigekazu said:

Ok. It seems like she is not "broken", but can i ask how would short range rushdown character be able to deal with her considering this information.

 

That's the point, lol. Nine has 19 spells (or 20? Can't remember but anyway a ton). She has multiple ways to deal with a majority of the cast and is overall very strong. Short range rush down characters like Makoto and Noel will have to struggle against Nine to beat her. The range on her normals are big, her mobility is a little weird, but is actually pretty good, has strong Oki and solid damage output. She is just... Well strong because of these reasons. Any character who normally has trouble getting in/have short range will have a hard time against Nine in her match ups. She isn't broken, but she is undeniably strong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Shigekazu said:

Ok. It seems like she is not "broken", but can i ask how would short range rushdown character be able to deal with her considering this information.

Short range rushdown characters like Jin or Noel would have the most difficulty getting in on Nine, but also the best chance of keeping her locked down once they're able to establish their pressure. Their most effective means of getting in on Nine is to rush her down when she has no spells currently stocked, as that puts her in a position where she can't use any spells or her reversal, leaving her near defenseless to close range pressure. But this means you would have to avoid being hit by one of Nine's normals, which is easier said than done given her range. A big part of doing that lies within your neutral game: anti-airing properly, and staying out of Nine's normal range while looking for an opening to approach her that wouldn't put you in danger of being poked by one of her normals, starting her spell pressure game. It may sound difficult, but even if she does start her spell game: Nine's spell stock is erased after she uses a spell, so you have multiple chances throughout a round to find that opening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Monarch said:

Short range rushdown characters like Jin or Noel would have the most difficulty getting in on Nine, but also the best chance of keeping her locked down once they're able to establish their pressure. Their most effective means of getting in on Nine is to rush her down when she has no spells currently stocked, as that puts her in a position where she can't use any spells or her reversal, leaving her near defenseless to close range pressure. But this means you would have to avoid being hit by one of Nine's normals, which is easier said than done given her range. A big part of doing that lies within your neutral game: anti-airing properly, and staying out of Nine's normal range while looking for an opening to approach her that wouldn't put you in danger of being poked by one of her normals, starting her spell pressure game. It may sound difficult, but even if she does start her spell game: Nine's spell stock is erased after she uses a spell, so you have multiple chances throughout a round to find that opening.

Oh I see. so i guess short ranged characters do have a chance to beat her. I assumed that maybe sticking with short range character I usually go with isn't the best idea or worth it.

Sorry for the questions, seeing strong long range characters like this intimidate me, but im trying to understand it, so i can figure out how to beat it.

Edited by Shigekazu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Monarch said:

Short range rushdown characters like Jin or Noel would have the most difficulty getting in on Nine, but also the best chance of keeping her locked down once they're able to establish their pressure. Their most effective means of getting in on Nine is to rush her down when she has no spells currently stocked, as that puts her in a position where she can't use any spells or her reversal, leaving her near defenseless to close range pressure. But this means you would have to avoid being hit by one of Nine's normals, which is easier said than done given her range. A big part of doing that lies within your neutral game: anti-airing properly, and staying out of Nine's normal range while looking for an opening to approach her that wouldn't put you in danger of being poked by one of her normals, starting her spell pressure game. It may sound difficult, but even if she does start her spell game: Nine's spell stock is erased after she uses a spell, so you have multiple chances throughout a round to find that opening.

??? Jin doesn't have short range, and plays differently according to the situation, not always Rushdown.

And even though a nine player with no spells stocked has no meter less reversal options, her neutral is still strong enough to prevent a situation like that from happening in the first place. We also can't forget her mobility that has invul, which can make it even harder to touch her!bA pure Rushdown character can win, however it is actually a struggle to get in due to Nine's normals having amazing range and her conversion potential off of them, as well has her mobility options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Shigekazu said:

Oh I see. so i guess short ranged characters do have a chance to beat her. I assumed that maybe sticking with short range character I usually go with isn't the best idea or worth it.

Sorry for the questions, seeing strong long range characters like this intimidate me, but im trying to understand it, so i can figure out how to beat it.

Long range zoning characters like Nu and Lambda have some trouble with Nine as well, since her omnidash can make zoning her difficult due to its invul frames. And since they lack a metterless reversal, it would be tougher to escape her pressure than it would be for a short range/rushdown character to. But their are definitely tools in place for both types of characters to win the matchup, the sucess of the matchup all depends on your knowledge of the character.

 

37 minutes ago, DivineTempest said:

??? Jin doesn't have short range, and plays differently according to the situation, not always Rushdown.

And even though a nine player with no spells stocked has no meter less reversal options, her neutral is still strong enough to prevent a situation like that from happening in the first place. We also can't forget her mobility that has invul, which can make it even harder to touch her!bA pure Rushdown character can win, however it is actually a struggle to get in due to Nine's normals having amazing range and her conversion potential off of them, as well has her mobility options.

While Jin has some mid to long range tools, he is a primarily rushdown character, and given the matchup his zoning tools pale in comparison to Nine's.

While her neutral is strong, the situation in not impossible and happens often: here are a few examples:

Example 1 - Unable to get a spell at round start and would have most likely died in Carl's pressure if she hadn't slipped out
Example 2 - After using Kunzite the Nine was unable to get another spell until it was too late and died as a result.
Example 3 - Similar situation as Example 2

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×