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[CF] Blazblue CENTRAL FICTION: News and Gameplay Discussion

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Terumi's actually considered mid-tier in this version. I think Amane is too.

Lambda's high tier and both Nu and Hazama are low tier. It's weird.

I think top 3 is Carl, Izayoi, and Jin? I know Nine's not considered top 3. She's very good, but not quite top tier.

I wanna say that bottom 3 is Kagura, Bullet, and Rachel.

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The only one I recall seeing is one from Poropichio from March 7th. 

I assume this is read Right to Left, so Carl, Rachel, Izayoi>Nine and Arakune?

Funnily enough he was complaining about Jin's Overdrive being the best in the game now, so what specifically did they do to Frost End this time?

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29 minutes ago, RWA Announcer said:

I assume this is read Right to Left, so Carl, Rachel, Izayoi>Nine and Arakune?

Vertical is "Tier", Top being Good and Bottom being limited/bad

Horizontal is "Options", Right has a tools for a lot of situations, Left is more situational/setplay characters, or limited options in offence/defence

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I don't really like that gap between high and low tier. On the other hand, Tao apparently sucks right now, so I'm cool with that. Terumi being mid-high is pretty accurate. He still has some neutral issues, but when he gets in the opponent has to actually think to block now, so it's pretty fair.

Feels so weird seeing Hazama with the low tiers though. It's like I get a gut reaction to just say "Lol, this list is crazy, Hazama in low tier, git gud." but then I remember he was actually nerfed this time. Trippy.

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2 hours ago, Volt said:

I don't really like that gap between high and low tier. On the other hand, Tao apparently sucks right now, so I'm cool with that. Terumi being mid-high is pretty accurate. He still has some neutral issues, but when he gets in the opponent has to actually think to block now, so it's pretty fair.

Feels so weird seeing Hazama with the low tiers though. It's like I get a gut reaction to just say "Lol, this list is crazy, Hazama in low tier, git gud." but then I remember he was actually nerfed this time. Trippy.

This picture doesn't depict the size of the gap between high and low tier.  You've got the whole graph, so you "zoom in" until your highest tier is at the top and your lowest tier is at the bottom.  It'd be useless if you just said "Yeah, the tiers are close in this game" and smooshed all 30-odd pictures on top of each other in the middle.  Honestly, tier lists in general are a pretty bad way of representing the "tier gap" because most people just do like "S,A,B,C, Trash" or something. Which doesn't really tell you anything, since they use the same scale for most games.

But anyway, as usual, aside from a few outliers like Carl and, apparently, Kagura(?) we see that most of the characters are in a big clump and that there's very little agreement on who is amazing and who is not. 

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On the plus side, if ppl can't agree who is at the top then the game is in a great spot balance wise. I'm questioning Izayoi being that high but maybe it's just no top tier JP players are playing her? And  Hazama being that low still feels like someone is just messing with us. lol

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3 hours ago, Airk said:

This picture doesn't depict the size of the gap between high and low tier.  You've got the whole graph, so you "zoom in" until your highest tier is at the top and your lowest tier is at the bottom.  It'd be useless if you just said "Yeah, the tiers are close in this game" and smooshed all 30-odd pictures on top of each other in the middle.  Honestly, tier lists in general are a pretty bad way of representing the "tier gap" because most people just do like "S,A,B,C, Trash" or something. Which doesn't really tell you anything, since they use the same scale for most games.

But anyway, as usual, aside from a few outliers like Carl and, apparently, Kagura(?) we see that most of the characters are in a big clump and that there's very little agreement on who is amazing and who is not. 

Nah I remember SKD saying Izayoi being really good since the closed loketests. From what I've heard, she really looks kinda insane but I don't really play Izayoi so I can't be sure why. I remember j.236D changing from lockdown sword to throwing out 3 or 5 swords and being cheaper and crazy good at space control, so that must have something to do with it.

Can't wait to body Low-Tier Hazama though... Oh wait, I play Kagura. 

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Honestly, I've been seeing a fair amount of Kagura performing well recently(mostly on gamechariot). He doesn't look too bad. At the very least I wouldn't say he's to CF what Terumi was to BBCPEX. If i was begged for a comparison, CPEX's lambda is what comes to mind- not so much outrageously bad, but just outclassed, though he's a little less consistant in the sense he needs to get the ball moving or else he'll be really useless since his neutral is kinda...:vbang:

Granted, this is on the eyes of someone who's experience with Kagura is limited to the first 5 levels of challenge mode, so take it with a grain of salt. A large grain. More like a rock, really.

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Yeah. I saw the write-up SKD did on her and I'm not saying her tool kit is bad at all.  But it seems odd that the JP player base does not really play her. So it makes me wonder if there is something I'm missing. Ie. With 2 high tier players does she have issues getting the stock needed to take matches or does she just not click with the player base kind of like old Makoto? Granted, YouTube vids are all I have to go off of so I can accept if I'm completely off base.   

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7 minutes ago, oh no, he said said:

Honestly, I've been seeing a fair amount of Kagura performing well recently(mostly on gamechariot). He doesn't look too bad. At the very least I wouldn't say he's to CF what Terumi was to BBCPEX. If i was begged for a comparison, CPEX's lambda is what comes to mind- not so much outrageously bad, but just outclassed, though he's a little less consistant in the sense he needs to get the ball moving or else he'll be really useless since his neutral is kinda...:vbang:

Granted, this is on the eyes of someone who's experience with Kagura is limited to the first 5 levels of challenge mode, so take it with a grain of salt. A large grain. More like a rock, really.

As long as he's viable I'm cool. I'm pretty much waiting for the West players to get the game since for some reason Kagura was never really popular in Japan, so info is pretty scarce. I personally think he might have gotten some important buffs, but I have no way of really knowing at this point.

I wish we could update CPEX with at least the existing move changes... At least it'd be useful for testing a few combos.

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There is 4 tier lists on Neogaf on BBCF.

I'll show one of them as an example of what I'm talking about. APPARENTLY this is made from Saigo, Hasshin, Muku, Sukoya, etc.

Cc6Y6gIUAAECkhA.jpg:large

Take a look at Lambda-11 and Mu-12 for example. Lambda is mid-low while Mu is mid-high unlike their positions made by Poropichio. It just shows how many of the characters are pretty close to each other in power and that it's pretty debatable on who's better . Heck, I saw two that placed Taokaka pretty high. I think we only know that Carl and Arakune are pretty terrifying while Kagura is just facing an uphill battle against well, everyone.


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31 minutes ago, Overdrive55 said:

There is 4 tier lists on Neogaf on BBCF.

I'll show one of them as an example of what I'm talking about. APPARENTLY this is made from Saigo, Hasshin, Muku, Sukoya, etc.

Cc6Y6gIUAAECkhA.jpg:large

Take a look at Lambda-11 and Mu-12 for example. Lambda is mid-low while Mu is mid-high unlike their positions made by Poropichio. It just shows how many of the characters are pretty close to each other in power and that it's pretty debatable on who's better . Heck, I saw two that placed Taokaka pretty high. I think we only know that Carl and Arakune are pretty terrifying while Kagura is just facing an uphill battle against well, everyone.


I figure vertical axis is tier, but what does the horizontal one mean? Can't be options because Ragna doesn't have more options than Jin, and I'm pretty sure the kanji is different.

Anyway, so this game is pretty balanced like the rest of the series. Of course, there are tiers and a bit of a gap between them, and the weird glaring exceptions like Kagura (Bottom) and Carl/Nine (Top), but nothing we haven't seen.

 

Wait, Tsubaki is near Valkenhayn. Stop spinning the room, I want out. How is this even possible?

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13 minutes ago, Volt said:

I figure vertical axis is tier, but what does the horizontal one mean? Can't be options because Ragna doesn't have more options than Jin, and I'm pretty sure the kanji is different.

Anyway, so this game is pretty balanced like the rest of the series. Of course, there are tiers and a bit of a gap between them, and the weird glaring exceptions like Kagura (Bottom) and Carl/Nine (Top), but nothing we haven't seen.

 

Wait, Tsubaki is near Valkenhayn. Stop spinning the room, I want out. How is this even possible?

Yeah, apparently Tsubaki got quite a few buffs overall. If we look at Zexo's review of Tsubaki from ArcRevo 2015, he points out her strong new overhead, which apparently has been somewhat of a game changer for her as far as everyone is thinking. Remember that this is still just one tier list. There's another one that lists her quite higher than Valkenhayn and one that puts her a bit lower, so who knows? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm still wondering myself how Poropichio put Lambda THAT high. Yeah she got polished, but I still notice that she mostly still suffers from her same flaws in BBCPEX (That +500 HP does help though :toot:)

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11 minutes ago, Overdrive55 said:

Yeah, apparently Tsubaki got quite a few buffs overall. If we look at Zexo's review of Tsubaki from ArcRevo 2015, he points out her strong new overhead, which apparently has been somewhat of a game changer for her as far as everyone is thinking. Remember that this is still just one tier list. There's another one that lists her quite higher than Valkenhayn and one that puts her a bit lower, so who knows? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm still wondering myself how Poropichio put Lambda THAT high. Yeah she got polished, but I still notice that she mostly still suffers from her same flaws in BBCPEX (That +500 HP does help though :toot:)

I know that she's got a good overhead now, but was that all she needed? Really? I think that if she got so high, she must have got more buffs than that. I kinda agree with Lambda though. Yeah, she got better, but she's not exactly that high. Definitely not CPEX Lambda though. Much better.

 

Actually, now that I looked at that second list better. Terumi is kinda low. He might still have problems getting in, but he does so much better now in terms of offense. He got a strong meterless OD combo ender with EA, AF and bonus damage on CH help with his damage output, he got a great loop in OD that deals good damage, leaves him with a full bar and almost eats the opponent's whole meter and he got an improved mix-up with 4D and OverHEAD. It's like, almost all of Terumi's problems got straight up nuked.

Wasn't Celica really good too? I remember hearing a lot of hype about her during the loketests.

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Lambda is really good at controlling the opponent now. improved speed of her swords lets her zone better. The changes to her act parser zwei are actually really good because the initial hit looks either neutral or slightly plus on block so you can get in with zero commitment and the opponent is forced to anticipate mixup with her 6A/B follow ups, especially when she has 50 heat and can actually combo out of the overhead. In addition to that almost all of her new combo routes have stupid screen carry, and in the corner her new 6C->22D ender routes lets her set up oki from a super safe distance. Plus she's one of the characters who is really thankful for EA being a safe on block reversal, which as an added bonus puts your opponent about 2/3 of the screen away on hit.

Not so sure about celica, she seems to have problems outputting damage in a lot of cases, but that new healing mechanic is strong when used properly. Have you SEEN her OD on low health and combo into the healing super? She regains over half her health, it's ridiculous.

 

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1 minute ago, oh no, he said said:

Lambda is really good at controlling the opponent now. improved speed of her swords lets her zone better. The changes to her act parser zwei are actually really good because the initial hit looks either neutral or slightly plus on block so you can get in with zero commitment and the opponent is forced to anticipate mixup with her 6A/B follow ups, especially when she has 50 heat and can actually combo out of the overhead. In addition to that almost all of her new combo routes have stupid screen carry, and in the corner her new 6C->22D ender routes lets her set up oki from a super safe distance. Plus she's one of the characters who is really thankful for EA being a safe on block reversal, which as an added bonus puts your opponent about 2/3 of the screen away on hit.

Not so sure about celica, she seems to have problems outputting damage in a lot of cases, but that new healing mechanic is strong when used properly. Have you SEEN her OD on low health and combo into the healing super? She regains over half her health, it's ridiculous.

 

I need to see that. Eat your heart out Ragna.

Wait, so 6C>22D is new to CF? So that's why it never worked when I tried to relearn Lambda in CPEX. :vbang: 

So annoying to play catch-up, gonna have to wait to learn everything in 2 years. (When Steam Version is released. Hope there's no Extend this time.)

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19 minutes ago, Volt said:

Wait, so 6C>22D is new to CF? So that's why it never worked when I tried to relearn Lambda in CPEX. :vbang: 

The route works in CPEX, but it's less effective there because of the SMP that 6C has: and arguably it isn't that great in CF either, because the opponent can still not opt to tech after the 22D and any oki such as 236D or 214D would be rendered useless.

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Not exactly how much Celica has improved overall, and I'm no expert on her BBCPEX incarnation by any means, but I find the fact that Ronitta is currently the Top Ranked player in the Japanese Arcades to be pretty telling.  She either got ALOT better, there's still some matchup ignorance going around or he's just that good.  Kinda surprised to see Nu-13 that low as well.  I know she took some big hits from CPEX and Yoshiki's playing Lambda now, but I've seen him and Pinose put in some solid performances with her, and as thrilled as I am at Lambda's improvements, I was hoping they'd be a bit closer in terms of power, so I could play both of them without feeling like I'm wasting time because one of them is significantly better than the other.

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4 hours ago, Volt said:

Wait, Tsubaki is near Valkenhayn. Stop spinning the room, I want out. How is this even possible?

Much easier to get charges. (charge speed increased)

5B > 6B combo on non croucher (it means she can combo from a very far distance, which is super strong)

combo after 3CC for free (no longer requires fatal counter or RC)

Combo ender 22B/D (her new overhead) is + on guard, and is a special move (so gauntlet hades style overhead, except safe)

And she loves the new overdrive system.

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4 hours ago, Volt said:

I know that she's got a good overhead now, but was that all she needed? Really? I think that if she got so high, she must have got more buffs than that. I kinda agree with Lambda though. Yeah, she got better, but she's not exactly that high. Definitely not CPEX Lambda though. Much better.

 

Actually, now that I looked at that second list better. Terumi is kinda low. He might still have problems getting in, but he does so much better now in terms of offense. He got a strong meterless OD combo ender with EA, AF and bonus damage on CH help with his damage output, he got a great loop in OD that deals good damage, leaves him with a full bar and almost eats the opponent's whole meter and he got an improved mix-up with 4D and OverHEAD. It's like, almost all of Terumi's problems got straight up nuked.

Wasn't Celica really good too? I remember hearing a lot of hype about her during the loketests.

Regarding Tsubaki, that overhead actually addresses multiple issues she's had for a while. She's lacked a good mixup game, a way to stay in, and a fairly safe way to deal good damage. Her new overhead replaced her old 22x which hasn't been all that useful for one that moves her forward and where the D version is plus on block and leads to minimum 3000+ damage. This combined with higher average damage ( she gets 2.2-2.7k off most meter/chargeless confirms now), heavily increased charge rate, and slightly improved 2b means she has something solid to work with as opposed to risky gimmicks. 

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9 hours ago, MoneyD90 said:

Yeah. I saw the write-up SKD did on her and I'm not saying her tool kit is bad at all.  But it seems odd that the JP player base does not really play her. So it makes me wonder if there is something I'm missing. Ie. With 2 high tier players does she have issues getting the stock needed to take matches or does she just not click with the player base kind of like old Makoto? Granted, YouTube vids are all I have to go off of so I can accept if I'm completely off base.   

Izayoi has her problems in a tournament (low game count) setting IMO, especially considering the single elimination format that some japanese tourneys follow.

She is a defensive character (in normal mode) with heavy read based gameplay (236B input anti-air that doesn't cover above her, difficult normals such as 5b which has a long range but is slow and with an extended hurtbox). That means that firstly you have to figure out how the opponent plays before getting stocks and wait for him to act first, reading his movements (the only exemption is when you get the first hit). Even after she gets stocks, her pressure is much more prone to mashing and desrespect than most of the cast, meaning that at the beginning it is imperative that you take your time and train the opponent to respect you by doing short n simple gapless strings > end > repeat.

Long story short,  she has to figure out how the opponent plays, and then teach him respect before she can do her crazy stuff (instead of "just doing her thing" like Ragna and others) and you only have so many rounds to do that. In a FT3+ setting, I'm sure she destroys.

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9 hours ago, Volt said:

I know that she's got a good overhead now, but was that all she needed? Really? I think that if she got so high, she must have got more buffs than that. I kinda agree with Lambda though. Yeah, she got better, but she's not exactly that high. Definitely not CPEX Lambda though. Much better.

 

Darn it, I already couldn't block that stupid book overhead against Airk.  (Yeah, I know that's bad.)

 

I wish CF would come out a bit sooner; I might actually have time this summer to play some fighting games.

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12 hours ago, Volt said:

I know that she's got a good overhead now, but was that all she needed? Really? I think that if she got so high, she must have got more buffs than that.

It's not all she needed, but it's also not all she got. Other changes include:

  • Generally faster charge rate in neutral, so more charges to do things with
  • 6B is faster now, so 5B > 6B works and allows confirms that otherwise weren't possible
  • 2B is faster now, so it's not longer jokesville and she actually has a semi decent low. (Seriously, 13 frames on that hilariously short 2B? When other characters have 2B that reach forever, low profile, and are 8 frames?)
  • 3CC combos without meter or FC.
  • Since she has a really good 'neutral' overdrive (as opposed to one that you just pop to do a combo) she benefits from being able to use it more.
  • Average damage up

I suspect there are other things in there as well.

And that's all just ignoring why her new special is so important for her.  It's basically plus on block Gauntlet Hades, so it has the following uses:

  • Overhead anytime you can special cancel
  • Moves her FORWARD, therefore helping to mitigate the "LOL, I'll just barrier and you'll be out of range in three hits" problem.
  • High hitbox, which means that even if you try to chicken block out, it connects and pushes you back down to the ground, which helps with her problem of people jumping out of pressure.
  • Plus on block, so pressure reset - even the chargeless version is +1, D version is... +3? Dunno.
  • Leads into solid damage, pretty much all the time. B version goes into 2.7k chargeless, D version is more than 3k.

 

My prediction is that Tsubaki will RULE netplay because no one will be able to deal with the new special. ;P

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I personally think Hazama is a bit underrated here. Is he as good as his previous iterations, no, but that doesn't mean he's bottom 5 like many tier lists out there regarding Central Fiction. The chains alone put him at the very least mid tier because of how many options it gives Hazama when it comes to movement or combo set-ups. Jagai is also a great move for Hazama as it does create a lot of mix-ups, especially in the corner. He might not be as good as he was in previous games, but from what i've seen, he's definitely not as bad as people make him out to be.

Also, i think Terumi is at the very, very, bottom of high tier considering the buffs he got when it comes to his moves, his new moves (4D and Seinshouga are god sends for him) and how the system changes greatly benefit him, giving Terumi what i think is one of the scariest Overdrive's in the game (i hit from Terumi in Overdrive usually results in death or near death). 

This is just what i think.

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See, I knew there had to be more buffs to Tsubaki than just "She got an overhead now." Thanks everyone.

 

56 minutes ago, Zeldasmash said:

I personally think Hazama is a bit underrated here. Is he as good as his previous iterations, no, but that doesn't mean he's bottom 5 like many tier lists out there regarding Central Fiction. The chains alone put him at the very least mid tier because of how many options it gives Hazama when it comes to movement or combo set-ups. Jagai is also a great move for Hazama as it does create a lot of mix-ups, especially in the corner. He might not be as good as he was in previous games, but from what i've seen, he's definitely not as bad as people make him out to be.

Also, i think Terumi is at the very, very, bottom of high tier considering the buffs he got when it comes to his moves, his new moves (4D and Seinshouga are god sends for him) and how the system changes greatly benefit him, giving Terumi what i think is one of the scariest Overdrive's in the game (i hit from Terumi in Overdrive usually results in death or near death). 

This is just what i think.

Hazama might not be exactly bad, but people are used to him being top tier forever. When they actually lose because the other character is flat out better, things get kinda complicated. At any rate, it seems every character is at least viable, sure, there are some serious uphill battles, but overall, they're viable at worst. (Ok, maybe Kagura, Bullet or Tao are exceptions)

 

Edit: Just remembered something. Revelator will have Story DLC. Could it be the case in CF? No more Extends? Just Balance Patches with the Story DLC? Please?

Edited by Volt
New info.

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