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[CF] Blazblue CENTRAL FICTION: News and Gameplay Discussion

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She's also received loads of buffs both in 1.1 and 2.0, including getting a proper DP, but sure, she was bottom-tier because people didn't figure her out, yeah :v:

Well nobody barely used Izayoi in 1.0, so it was difficult to gauge how  good she even was back then; like aside from skd, were there any notable Izayoi players at all, that at least "tried"? What her shortcomings? What did she lack that the other characters have back then?

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What did she lack that the other characters have back then?

I'll let SKD or someone else with more Izayoi experience give the proper answer, but in the meantime, you can check the old wiki page (written by SKD) for the summary of her shortcomings:

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=BBCP/Izayoi

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It's kind of weird that we didn't got any news about Nine. Maybe they're planning to release her for loketests right before the Arcade launch. I'm more worried about the fact that she'll probably have only one loketest before release, so she's either going to be really bad or really good. (Obviously Arcsys can't get a character right on their first try. For proof, see 1.0 Kokonoe)

Speaking of which... When was she released for arcades? A month later or more? I'm trying to calculate when Jubei is going to get released. (Because seriously, if he doesn't get in this one, I'm going to call him Cat Raven. Seriously. No reason to not include the full 6 Heroes + Hazama pack in CF.)



Jubei would be another character I would be pissed about just because he is capable of avoiding 5a with no effort.

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so when is the arcade release  for this game ? and Naoto is real starting to sound like the new Ragna I'm hearing is his astral  is the same as Ragna ? 

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Jubei would be another character I would be pissed about just because he is capable of avoiding 5a with no effort.

I'm having flashbacks to playing Goldeneye with my friends and someone picking Oddjob. The horror!

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Jubei would be another character I would be pissed about just because he is capable of avoiding 5a with no effort.

Not really. I know i've said this before, but, have him fight in the armor and have the horns on his armor be part of his hitbox, like the hat is for Carl. Boom, relatively normal height character.

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Not really. I know i've said this before, but, have him fight in the armor and have the horns on his armor be part of his hitbox, like the hat is for Carl. Boom, relatively normal height character.

Ninja'd. Besides, he can stand more upright or something. It's not like Jubei's Story sprite is around the same height of Carl. (Including Hat) Unless we're going to take measures based on Alter Memory. :v:

I think we can 5A him.

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Not really. I know i've said this before, but, have him fight in the armor and have the horns on his armor be part of his hitbox, like the hat is for Carl. Boom, relatively normal height character.



I've checked their bios and all I can say is that Carl is a few inches taller than jubei. So no.... Hell no.

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Well nobody barely used Izayoi in 1.0, so it was difficult to gauge how  good she even was back then; like aside from skd, were there any notable Izayoi players at all, that at least "tried"? What her shortcomings? What did she lack that the other characters have back then?

I don't think even SKD was really super hype for Izayoi in 1.0.  He tried really hard, but she had all kinds of issues with combo routes and wonky normals.  That may be my faulty memory, however.

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Lol #BanJubei. He's just going to be practically immune to mix-ups since all highs and overheads will whiff. It's nothing like Oddjob in Goldeneye 64. :v:

Jokes aside, is CF looking more like CP 1.1 or CPEX generally speaking? I don't really know how I should practice while waiting for CF.

 

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That also depends on if CF changes greatly between now and arcade release, and between arcade release and console release. If it's more like CP1.1 now but more like CPEX when it hits console, I don't think it will help to be practiced on CP1.1 just because it's like that right now.

Let's also just say, for funsies, that it turns into CS1.03. Then you are definitely not prepared with either option. It could also become so different that it's just its own identity.

Edited by TekkamanArk

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Jokes aside, is CF looking more like CP 1.1 or CPEX generally speaking? I don't really know how I should practice while waiting for CF.

Depends on how you wanna look at it. IMO, CF is to CPEX, what CP 1.0 was to BBCSEX. While the general gameplan of the character will more than likely remain more-or-less the same (if only for the sake of familiarity), the overall mechanics are their own beast. Active Flow and Exceed Accel are bound to turn the outcome of a match on its head (more the former rather than the latter) and of course there's the new characters you will need to adjust to along with the changes to the existing cast. Practice-wise I'd say you're fine practicing with your mains/subs as they are since it's unlikely any one of them will receive a complete overhaul/reimagining to their gameplan and will only need to re-adjust to the changes (like how your Terumi now has an overhead and a new special or perhaps Ragna's loss of Belial Edge in favor of Nightmare Edge). Comparatively, I'm one of the luckier ones since my man Azrael looks 90% the same with only an addition of a DP and EA being newer things to take into consideration.

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I would not compare the difference in CPEX and CF to the difference between CSEX and CP. Unlike how CP was a complete change from CS, CF seems more an evolution of CP. They haven't really outright removed or replaced many systems this time around; they've just added new ones and changed some old ones.

Edited by Tokkan

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Because characters that have been in the game before are totally immune from being excessively good and needing testing, especially when you are adding a whole bunch of new mechanics to the game?

I'm going to try and kill this ENTIRE discussion and say that there has been private testing in the past, and there is likely private testing right now. and a lot of it is deliberate, so don't worry about it too much.

 

Because nobody knew how to use her properly at the time, not because there was anything specifically wrong with the character.

 

Notice how she's now considered among the best near the end of 1.1 and well into Extend (Thanks skd :V) Compared to Terumi...who's always kinda sucked.

 

She's also received loads of buffs both in 1.1 and 2.0, including getting a proper DP, but sure, she was bottom-tier because people didn't figure her out, yeah :v:

Izayoi...okay. Im going to write this essay and hopefully just kill this discussion because reading it is really giving me a headache.

There was a LOT wrong with the character, it was not that she wasn't figured out. There is a lot to talk about in comparing how a character develops on console and in arcade as well. I don't really want to turn this into a full blown discussion, and i dont really want to come off as an asshole but a lot of this is really straightforward, cut and dry. I will tell you like it is. If you think im crazy, or dont want to listen to me, then DO NOT LISTEN to me. I dont want to talk about this forever.

1.0, the character had certain strong tools, but she really came off as incomplete. Did not have all the tools to function, specifically neutral and pressure. 1.1 was a huge jump, she literally went from a low/mid tier character to top tier. Neutral and pressure were heavily augmented. In 1.1 though, why and how she was "top tier" was really "difficult". And the reason why I found her to be so strong was because her neutral and pressure were so dominant at a very very high level of implementation...on console.

Characters develop differently based on the environment they play in, yeah. Okay. Reading JP tier lists and character impressions? yeah, okay. Understand that character strength is reflective of the environment. I am a player who always plays in delay free, consistent environments. The beauty of USA's console standard. That is the basis of my analysis, that is my blazblue. You know how Nu is considered so strong there? Whereas if you asked sG (i am pretty sure he would respond this way) about the character's strength, he would probably say she is not quite as strong as they usually convey her to be (definitely still up there, though). So i said all that to say this: The way I "tried" to play that character in 1.1 was driving neutral rps, pressure, and making sure i could mitigate as much risk as possible with good defense.

The kind of defense and neutral rps that becomes a bit impractical in any delayed environment. Even then, I wasn't good enough to make it work 100% even on console, but the character potential was there. There was a lot that I didn't get to flesh out with her on pressure, neutral, offense, etc by the time ex came around. The char in 1.1 was honestly so deep. I played her for a year (from 1.0 to 1.1) before I got competent with her to the point where I could play like that practically in tournament. However, that practical high level implementation of the character was very very hard to implement in japan, which is why you really never saw her then.

I honestly also feel that my control choice (i play pad) has a lot to do with practical implementation of the character and that kind of play. So, I think a lot of things came together and helped me make that character work. In 1.1, izayoi was NONEXISTENT in japan.

Honest to god, izayoi in delay is actually way worse. How every izayoi player i met in japan played the character made sense if you approached the game in the environment they practice in. They also had no clue how i approached certain situations or why as well. This is because we /dont play the same game/. Anyone who played console and had a good understanding of the meta and high level console meta knew that this character was strong. How strong, I wouldn't expect people to know unless they really dug deep and understood her but people saying she was weak in 1.1, shy of exposure (if you used her and said she was bad, you actually pissed me off so much because you were actually just too bad) problems had no clue what they were talking about. But IMO it was excusable, because the character was so fucking hard even on console. Nobody was really gonna put in the time for it, but i saw the potential in the character so i worked at it. And you know, it paid off! Atm, i think her 1.1 incarnation was ~top 3 on console if played optimally.

Ill keep this part short. Fast forward to EX. So, japan's impression of the character was not too hot, lol. It makes sense, because for them, the character was...not too hot. So what happened? She got buffed pretty heavily. The new DP and system changes to throw offense were sorta significant, and she got much stronger pressure tools and she became much much faster. A lot of "problems" that she had in 1.1 that /I felt were workable because of where i played/ were not quite so for her over there, and as such they were alleviated. So she became a LOT "easier". You had less of a burden to make up for if you wanted to drive her strengths, if that makes any sense. To me, this ended up shooting her up to like super top tier because a lot of the changes she got were not tailored for where i played her, lol. If you play console (offline) and think this character is not BLATANTLY top tier, i have no hope for you. But in jpn, the buffs they gave her worked in such a way that they consider her pretty strong over there now! But still not quite the same as how i feel, but it makes sense because /WE DONT PLAY THE SAME GAME/.

So everyone in this thread is constantly talking about jpn impression jpn blah blah blah, yes you can take a lot of things from them. Yes, there is a lot of useful information to be gathered, yes certain aspects don't change as much, and we can definitely share consensus on a lot of things. But jesus christ lol.

If I sound crazy about how i am talking about the character, just watch how dogura played me at evo, the kind of offense he ran. His offensive structure isnt the same as mine (as a result he wastes a lot of pressure opportunities by getting "too greedy" for me, but it's general offense in jp), and honestly developing console meta undermines a lot of what they practice, so i feel like i went in with a home court advantage, so to speak.

Hopefully that wraps up all this IZAYOI SUCKED BUT WTF? JAPAN DIDNT KNOW??? CHARACTER UNDEVELOPED? shit, because theres no way they would have known. we dont play the same fucking game. They would have figured her out the exact same way if they played on console. And honestly, this is kind of exceptional because usually there isn't such a fine line that causes such a drastic change, but this is one of those cases.

 

Well nobody barely used Izayoi in 1.0, so it was difficult to gauge how  good she even was back then; like aside from skd, were there any notable Izayoi players at all, that at least "tried"? What her shortcomings? What did she lack that the other characters have back then?

There were when the character came out, and then she fell off really hard. She was whack as fuck. Her neutral was incomplete. This is not her problem, but for the sake of example, say you have a 24f overhead, without ANY LOWS. Your character literally has no lows. That was her neutral and pressure, she could not juxtapose anything properly.

 

I don't think even SKD was really super hype for Izayoi in 1.0.  He tried really hard, but she had all kinds of issues with combo routes and wonky normals.  That may be my faulty memory, however.

her normals were fucking good as hell, but she didnt have any way to implement them. They fixed this in 1.1 with new movement options and increasing ch untech on one of her really important moves (normal mode 2C). Combo routes were fine, but they made them really good in 1.1.

 

Depends on how you wanna look at it. IMO, CF is to CPEX, what CP 1.0 was to BBCSEX. While the general gameplan of the character will more than likely remain more-or-less the same (if only for the sake of familiarity), the overall mechanics are their own beast. Active Flow and Exceed Accel are bound to turn the outcome of a match on its head (more the former rather than the latter) and of course there's the new characters you will need to adjust to along with the changes to the existing cast. Practice-wise I'd say you're fine practicing with your mains/subs as they are since it's unlikely any one of them will receive a complete overhaul/reimagining to their gameplan and will only need to re-adjust to the changes (like how your Terumi now has an overhead and a new special or perhaps Ragna's loss of Belial Edge in favor of Nightmare Edge). Comparatively, I'm one of the luckier ones since my man Azrael looks 90% the same with only an addition of a DP and EA being newer things to take into consideration.

i know you said IMO, but im gonna talk about this so we're all on the same page here. This is definitely like, totally backwards lol. CF is a revision of CPEX. the whole meta from CSEX to CP changed because of a...whole bunch of shit. New burst system, no primers, OD, drastic character changes, movement speed changes, gravity on a lot of chars is different, jump heights changed, barrier changed, throw ranges were altered, etc. Characters are MUCH more similar to cpex than CSEX to CP. 80% of the cast can do the exact same combo routes they do now. Active flow is not nearly as big of a deal as most people I see on DL are making it out to be. It does influence a GENERAL approach, yeah, but most of the reasoning that goes into the match uses the same tools. Active flow is one of those tools, even then it is not that big, since it compliments most of the current meta. System changes are the biggest thing, but it's mostly about working with new systems on top of what we already have, with light character changes. Aka, a revision. That's the point of this update being so similar lol. They want to keep the meta in tact.

 

jesus christ please dont let me regret this post

 

edit: im going to clarify why nu is weaker on console. offense is weaker, but overall neutral guesses are much safer and more reactive, and can yield higher reward. doesn't have to play so low commit while being "safe". However, neutral guesses are still neutral guesses (your opponent can also move more accordingly, so the RPS changes a bit), and she does lack a bit in terms of defensive and movement options, so she still suffers from the same weakness. Hello!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by skd

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Just to clarify: does Japan play with lag more often than the US? Because an outsider like me would think otherwise: that Japan mostly plays in arcades, while US mostly plays on PSN.

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Just to clarify: does Japan play with lag more often than the US? Because an outsider like me would think otherwise: that Japan mostly plays in arcades, while US mostly plays on PSN.

yea, most arcade cabs that bb are on come with a bit of lag. their netplay is also MUCH MUCH better, they netplay a lot more than american players (even some of their top players). Top US players rarely netplay in comparison, and if they do it's pretty supplemental to offline learning. Pretty much all meta development and practice happen offline for us. Its a lot easier to practice what you learn in jpn, when you think about just how different their netplay exp is vs their arcade exp. rps doesn't change so drastically, you are taking great, condensed netplay delay and comparing it to cab delay. USA, you have shitty netplay and lagless offline standard, the difference is huge. we do not have access to netplay as a tool to practice when our game barely resembles what we should be playing, lol. Outside of the top players, we have fewer midlevel players playing online as well.

tl;dr: They play in arcade (usually delay), they netplay more (delay). Most of US's truly competitive players do not play online, how you got that impression is kind of funny to me.

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Man you know Japanese gamer genes are superior when they got people blocking Valkenhayn wolf shit even in delay and then over in the US some of us can't even tech purple throws on optimal connections.  T__T

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tl;dr: They play in arcade (usually delay), they netplay more (delay). Most of US's truly competitive players do not play online, how you got that impression is kind of funny to me.

Like I said, it's mostly because I don't live in the US, so all I can do is make assumptions based on what I read (and I mostly see netplay discussions, you know, being on the Internet and all) and the differences between the US and Japan that I know of (for instance, US are bigger than Japan, so, assuming that the top-level players are spread somewhat evenly, it might be easier to find decent competition online than to drive for hours just to meet another player of your level). Oh, and every time someone complains about the bad netcode in Japanese fighting games, there is always someone who says "Well it was made for the Japanese, and their connections feel like offline because the country is so small", which most people can't confirm or deny.

Anyways, shine on.

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